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  #27901  
Old 05-30-2017, 05:44 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt View Post
No it's a game we played during the cold war.
Then we stopped playing.
Then Putin decided to play again, alone.
Which is quite telling on his mindset, he's still stuck in a cold war mentality.
Uhh?

No?

The U.S. and NATO expansion into the area was a pretty big betrayal. One of many. We (the "good guys") abused Russian trust by taking advantage of the Soviet collapse in the area. We've squandered unprecidented good will through U.S. dick moves.

Putin was literally the first leader to offer help after 9/11. Before our NATO allies.

Ive posted a more detailed explanation on this before, but Russia isnt anywhere close to the only malicious actor here.
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  #27902  
Old 05-30-2017, 05:50 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by Gromak View Post
So this exchange between Ukraine and Russia happened.

What a time to be alive.
...

Okay, who broke reality?
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  #27903  
Old 05-30-2017, 05:55 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Uhh?

No?

The U.S. and NATO expansion into the area was a pretty big betrayal. One of many. We (the "good guys") abused Russian trust by taking advantage of the Soviet collapse in the area. We've squandered unprecidented good will through U.S. dick moves.

Putin was literally the first leader to offer help after 9/11. Before our NATO allies.

Ive posted a more detailed explanation on this before, but Russia isnt anywhere close to the only malicious actor here.
A lot of former Soviet satellite nations had good reason to seek out the west for protection.
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  #27904  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:00 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
A lot of former Soviet satellite nations had good reason to seek out the west for protection.
Which doesnt excuse our actions.
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  #27905  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:05 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Which doesnt excuse our actions.
Our actions never needed excusing. Invading Ukraine and other Putin shenanigans earned Putin the ire and distrust he deserved.
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  #27906  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:07 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Our actions never needed excusing. Invading Ukraine and other Putin shenanigans earned Putin the ire and distrust he deserved.
Not to mention the internal civil rights issues in Russia. We don't want them to spread their influence.
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  #27907  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:23 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by Gromak View Post
So this exchange between Ukraine and Russia happened.

What a time to be alive.
In the Internet age, countries need a media-savvy twitter presence.

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  #27908  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:23 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Our actions never needed excusing.
So says every playground bully ever.
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  #27909  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:31 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
So says every playground bully ever.
We beat up the bullies.
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  #27910  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:35 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
We beat up the bullies.
Only if they dont give us their lunch money.
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  #27911  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:38 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Only if they dont give us their lunch money.
Don't try to annex your neighbors or attempt acts of ethnic cleansing and you should be fine.
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  #27912  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:40 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Don't try to annex your neighbors or attempt acts of ethnic cleansing and you should be fine.
Pretty sure you are using future actions to justify past activities
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  #27913  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:43 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Pretty sure you are using future actions to justify past activities
Letting nations into NATO that have been hurt by the Soviet Union?
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  #27914  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:45 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Letting nations into NATO that have been hurt by the Soviet Union?
Yes.

Especially considering we never wanted the Union to disolve. We told them to stick together
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  #27915  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:51 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Yes.

Especially considering we never wanted the Union to disolve. We told them to stick together
I wanted the union to dissolve and communism to go into the trash bin of history. Those Eastern European nations wanting to improve ties to the west is one of the biggest geopolitical gains of the last century. These nations used to be under tyranny and were being used against the free world.

Russia had nothing to fear from this unless they interfere with their neighbors which they have a history of doing so. They aren't just buffer states. They are people that deserve to be free and prosperous just like anyone else. These nations have assisted us in the GWoT and are one of the biggest supporters of NATO now.
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  #27916  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:53 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Don't try to annex your neighbors or attempt acts of ethnic cleansing and you should be fine.
A cargo ship of ours full of sheep sunk a Russian military vessel. We'll be fine.

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  #27917  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:58 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
I wanted the union to dissolve and communism to go into the trash bin of history. Those Eastern European nations wanting to improve ties to the west is one of the biggest geopolitical gains of the last century. These nations used to be under tyranny and were being used against the free world.

Russia had nothing to fear from this unless they interfere with their neighbors which they have a history of doing so. They aren't just buffer states. They are people that deserve to be free and prosperous just like anyone else. These nations have assisted us in the GWoT and are one of the biggest supporters of NATO now.
White or black, they are still pawns on the board. Joining NATO didnt prevent that. It just flipped the color.
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  #27918  
Old 05-30-2017, 07:03 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
White or black, they are still pawns on the board. Joining NATO didnt prevent that. It just flipped the color.
Nope. You should see how they interact with American military personnel in their countries. It is much more personable. Relationships based off of friendship are very possible and preferable to ones based off of coercion. That is why the Soviet Union fell apart and those countries fled to the west while the US still can't get South Korea to take control of its own military forces in the event of a war because they want American leadership.

Your false moral equivalences fall apart in the face of reality.
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  #27919  
Old 05-30-2017, 07:22 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Nope. You should see how they interact with American military personnel in their countries. It is much more personable. Relationships based off of friendship are very possible and preferable to ones based off of coercion. That is why the Soviet Union fell apart and those countries fled to the west while the US still can't get South Korea to take control of its own military forces in the event of a war because they want American leadership.

Your false moral equivalences fall apart in the face of reality.
As has been pointed out a few times, America still effectively practices slavery.

We are not "better" than Russia.

We have different perspectives. And if we played off of and fostered good will that existed between America and Russia post Cold War instead of exploiting their weakess, Gorbachev’s dream could have been prevented from backsliding into guilt over stalinism which fed directly into Putins brand of neo totarialism.
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  #27920  
Old 05-30-2017, 07:27 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
As has been pointed out a few times, America still effectively practices slavery.

We are not "better" than Russia.

We have different perspectives. And if we played off of and fostered good will that existed between America and Russia post Cold War instead of exploiting their weakess, Gorbachev’s dream could have been prevented from backsliding into guilt over stalinism which fed directly into Putins brand of neo totarialism.
We have different perspectives than Germany and France. We are better than Vladmir Putin. He knows what he has to do to be on our good terms and he refuses to do it. Putin may not love communism but he liked the power that came from the Soviet Union. We should stand up to him and show him it is not worth it to go down the path he has chosen.
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  #27921  
Old 05-30-2017, 07:28 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
We are not "better" than Russia.
Despite the best efforts of conservatives over the years, we most definitely are. Get back to me when you guys manage to ban homosexuality or something.
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  #27922  
Old 05-30-2017, 07:30 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
We have different perspectives than Germany and France. We are better than Vladmir Putin. He knows what he has to do to be on our good terms and he refuses to do it. Putin may not love communism but he liked the power that came from the Soviet Union. We should stand up to him and show him it is not worth it to go down the path he has chosen.
France forbids its press from discussing politics before elections.

Germany arrests people for speech.

They arent better than Russia either.
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  #27923  
Old 05-30-2017, 07:31 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
As has been pointed out a few times, America still effectively practices slavery.

We are not "better" than Russia.

We have different perspectives. And if we played off of and fostered good will that existed between America and Russia post Cold War instead of exploiting their weakess, Gorbachev’s dream could have been prevented from backsliding into guilt over stalinism which fed directly into Putins brand of neo totarialism.
We actually are though.
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  #27924  
Old 05-30-2017, 07:39 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
France forbids its press from discussing politics before elections.

Germany arrests people for speech.

They arent better than Russia either.
They are better than Russia.
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  #27925  
Old 05-30-2017, 07:39 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Ragnahar View Post
We actually are though.
Not really, no.
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