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  #4051  
Old 02-14-2018, 08:37 AM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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This time, Saurfang's jail time may be a way to put all rogue Horde elements away so the Horde fully supports Sylvanas, and I don't see her repeating Garrosh's mistake of mistreating her subjects.
If the only way for Sylvanas to get the Horde to followe her is to take Saurfang out of the picture, I don't know what to tell you.

And I can definitely see her mistreating her subjects. See: Her leaked dialogue with Saurfang.

Edit: Keep in mind that the Epilogue cutscene painted a picture of divided Horde leaders with Sylvanas and Gallywix on one side of the spectrum, and Saurfang, Baine and all the others on the other side. I really don't see her easily convincing the Horde to truly support her, especially not if Saurfang is known to be captured but she doesn't order his rescue. He's one of the most respected Horde leaders.

Last edited by Gromak; 02-14-2018 at 08:42 AM..
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  #4052  
Old 02-14-2018, 08:58 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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If the only way for Sylvanas to get the Horde to followe her is to take Saurfang out of the picture, I don't know what to tell you.
Not the only way, but it's an easy way.

From the datamined dialogue, Sylvanas was against Saurfang wanting a warrior's death. It was this death wish that made him be captured in first place.

A respected leader going martyr (rather than being betrayed) is a good way to keep the orcs, and people that respect him, focused on fighting the Alliance, rather than turning against the Warchief.

Plus, while she may not have given orders to rescue Saurfang (did she even know he was not dead?), it was his choice to not be rescued.

This situation ended up favoring Sylvanas.
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  #4053  
Old 02-14-2018, 09:21 AM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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Plus, while she may not have given orders to rescue Saurfang (did she even know he was not dead?), it was his choice to not be rescued.
Rokhan was not at all surprised to see Saurfang in the dungeons, though he was surprised he was not going with them and rather buy them time for their mission by talking to Anduin, saying that he didn't recall any order of making Saurfang come with them. They were there for the trolls, first and foremost.

I don't think this favours Sylvanas at all, openly taunting and disrespecting him and then fully willing to let him rot in a cell instead of saving him. The "Honour above all" guy who constantly questioned Sylvanas being subjected to this kind of treatment should really set of the alarm clocks of every other Horde leader that just went through a very similar situation.
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  #4054  
Old 02-14-2018, 09:41 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Gromak View Post
I don't think this favours Sylvanas at all, openly taunting and disrespecting him and then fully willing to let him rot in a cell instead of saving him. The "Honour above all" guy who constantly questioned Sylvanas being subjected to this kind of treatment should really set of the alarm clocks of every other Horde leader that just went through a very similar situation.
We lack the entire context of that conversation. To me, it seems Saurfang was openly defying orders and went, against her commands, to fight, which leads to his capture. Those "berating" comments are just in response to his open defiance.
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  #4055  
Old 02-14-2018, 10:03 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Edit: Totally random thought:
Why did the Loa pointed Sylvanas as Warchief?
Well: Warchief Sylvanas leads the Zandalari into the Horde, and the Horde into Zandalar, in order to save the Loa from G'huun? Maybe there's even more to it further down the road?
Funny that after the whole situation with Illidan, Velen and the idea of one's own decisions and actions shaping one's fate, we're supposed to still think the spiritual agencies whispering ideas into the characters' heads know what they're talking about or even have our best interests in mind if they do.

What makes the loa so wise anyway? The fact they keep getting betrayed by their own worshipers trying to steal their power? Or is it the way they helped the Zandalari and Amani escalate their war against the high elves that ended with their asses getting kicked?

I honestly half wonder if "the spirits" were really just Bwonsamdi telling Vol'jin to choose Sylvanas because he was promised souls back in Shadows of the Horde and it was Vol'jin's last chance to pay up by appointing a Warchief who'd start a war that eventually gets herself and tons of other people killed.
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  #4056  
Old 02-14-2018, 10:06 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Funny that after the whole situation with Illidan, Velen and the idea of one's own decisions and actions shaping one's fate, we're supposed to still think the spiritual agencies whispering ideas into the characters' heads know what they're talking about or even have our best interests in mind if they do.

What makes the loa so wise anyway? The fact they keep getting betrayed by their own worshipers trying to steal their power? Or is it the way they helped the Zandalari and Amani escalate their war against the high elves that ended with their asses getting kicked?

I honestly half wonder if "the spirits" were really just Bwonsamdi telling Vol'jin to choose Sylvanas because he was promised souls back in Shadows of the Horde and it was Vol'jin's last chance to pay up by appointing a Warchief who'd start a war that eventually gets herself and tons of other people killed.
My point is just that the Loa influenced Vol'jin not because of wanting the best for the Horde, but the best for themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if next Warchief ends up being Rastakhan. Now, the Horde belongs to the trolls (and the Loa), and every land is troll land.
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  #4057  
Old 02-14-2018, 11:04 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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My point is just that the Loa influenced Vol'jin not because of wanting the best for the Horde, but the best for themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if next Warchief ends up being Rastakhan. Now, the Horde belongs to the trolls (and the Loa), and every land is troll land.
Ten bucks say we're gonna meet his Loa Overlord, he'll go "Vision? What vision?" and both factions will collectively go "oh crap" over who sent that idea and who'd benefit from it. (That or the dieing troll had a fever dream. Equally likely, let's be honest.)

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  #4058  
Old 02-14-2018, 12:33 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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It does seem like Sylvanas' decisionmaking regarding the Alliance may be limited by the fact that all she's really seen of them since WC3 is disorganized peasant militias that easily fell. At absolute worst she ended up stalemated against them in Gilneas and didn't realize that the Alliance was either distracted or holding back all this time.

I do get the sense that one of the purposes of the Stormwind scenario for Horde is to demonstrate that jeez the Alliance is actually pretty scary now and should be taken seriously as enemies.
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  #4059  
Old 02-14-2018, 01:20 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Ten bucks say we're gonna meet his Loa Overlord, he'll go "Vision? What vision?" and both factions will collectively go "oh crap" over who sent that idea and who'd benefit from it. (That or the dieing troll had a fever dream. Equally likely, let's be honest.)

...
I'm watching too much Preston.
Considering what an amoral and manipulative jackass Bwonsamdi is? He's probably just going to say, "Oh, that vision. Of course". The Loa don't really seem to know what G'huun is yet, so Sylvanas isn't for that.

However, Sylvanas is a good Warchief if you're looking to pull the Horde into Death magic and Death worship. Bwonsamdi might not like the undead, but it's entirely possible he can find a use for them just fine. He'll hand out immortality if the offer is right, and find a way to collect on your soul anyways,
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  #4060  
Old 02-14-2018, 06:34 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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We still don't have descriptions for Zandalari racials do we? I hope that comes soon.
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  #4061  
Old 02-14-2018, 07:00 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Saurfang is using his updated model now. Pretty cool.
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  #4062  
Old 02-14-2018, 08:48 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Funny that after the whole situation with Illidan, Velen and the idea of one's own decisions and actions shaping one's fate, we're supposed to still think the spiritual agencies whispering ideas into the characters' heads know what they're talking about or even have our best interests in mind if they do.

What makes the loa so wise anyway? The fact they keep getting betrayed by their own worshipers trying to steal their power? Or is it the way they helped the Zandalari and Amani escalate their war against the high elves that ended with their asses getting kicked?

I honestly half wonder if "the spirits" were really just Bwonsamdi telling Vol'jin to choose Sylvanas because he was promised souls back in Shadows of the Horde and it was Vol'jin's last chance to pay up by appointing a Warchief who'd start a war that eventually gets herself and tons of other people killed.
this is blizzard, she'll either actually do something that justifies the spirits OR she was supposed to, but they cut it/changed their minds.

I don't think it'll happen, but i'd love if Teldrasill is actually burned by Furion and Tyrande themselves in a "fuck you, we didn't even like this tree" moment

Last edited by GenyaArikado; 02-14-2018 at 08:51 PM..
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  #4063  
Old 02-14-2018, 10:29 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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I don't expect Sylvanas will go the Garrosh route, I'm just pointing out that she's always been pro-war. She wants to wipe out any threats against her.

I don't think she will make the Horde turn against her in the same way Garrosh did. She's a manipulator, something Garrosh never were. She convinces others to work on her best interests. The Horde fights for the Horde, so she becomes the Horde.

About her end, I don't think she will be a raid boss. I expect her death to happen in some cinematic, maybe in a way that will spark further conflict instead of closing it. But I really doubt she will go down in a heroic sacrifice. I may be wrong, but, in my mind, she will never sacrifice herself for anyone (except, maybe, Nathanos).

But she may die in such a way that the Horde perceives it as sacrifice. Or under cowardly tactics from the enemy. Or she's hoisted by her own petard, with a plan of her backfiring horribly, but the Horde does not see it that way. And that will only make things worse.
Id like it if Saurfang came back to the Horde while she's out fighting the Alliance (in Gilneas would be nice), bash Nathanos' head, proclaims himself Warchief and decides to let Sylvanas face the Alliance alone. Nothing to be ashamed of on the Horde side and a satisfying vengeance on the Alliance side. In a similar way to the 2 continents of the expansion, maybe the end of the story could happen in Kezan for the Horde and Gilneas for the Alliance. I think that would make for a cool end where no one seems like a loser.
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  #4064  
Old 02-14-2018, 10:55 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I don't think it'll happen, but i'd love if Teldrasill is actually burned by Furion and Tyrande themselves in a "fuck you, we didn't even like this tree" moment
While it would be quite the twist, I don't see it happening either, as it'd be pretty starkly out of character for them. One might recall that the night elves aren't the only ones living in that tree. They'd basically be murdering a bunch of furbolgs, ancients, keepers and dryads if they set Teldrassil ablaze, and I don't see Malfurion or Tyrande being party to doing that just to spite the Horde.

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  #4065  
Old 02-14-2018, 11:33 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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While it would be quite the twist, I don't see it happening either, as it'd be pretty starkly out of character for them. One might recall that the night elves aren't the only ones living in that tree. They'd basically be murdering a bunch of furbolgs, ancients, keepers and dryads if they set Teldrassil ablaze, and I don't see Malfurion or Tyrande being party to doing that just to spite the Horde.
Unless they mass evacuate it? Maybe they could link a passage through the Emerald Dream from Teldrassil to Shaladrassil, made easier by the power of the two World Trees.
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  #4066  
Old 02-14-2018, 11:39 PM
Joeygiggles Joeygiggles is offline

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Kosak is no longer working on WoW, so now the team can get rid of Sylvannas once and for all.
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:03 AM
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I dont think they are foig to kill Sylvanas, until we start seeing a suitable replacement for her, being prepared. Sure, she could be removed as warchief, and there is a list of potential people to succeed her as that, but as racial leader? Not even close.

And no, I dont think Blizzard is so sexist cis-gender *insert feminist trope/term here* to replace her with Nathanos.

Unless... nah, Alleria is already Alliance.
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  #4068  
Old 02-15-2018, 06:20 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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While it would be quite the twist, I don't see it happening either, as it'd be pretty starkly out of character for them. One might recall that the night elves aren't the only ones living in that tree. They'd basically be murdering a bunch of furbolgs, ancients, keepers and dryads if they set Teldrassil ablaze, and I don't see Malfurion or Tyrande being party to doing that just to spite the Horde.
Out of character for Malfurion.

Tyrande already considering burning Ashenvale to keep it from the Horde if memory serves.
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:32 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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There's an important parallel between the Nightborne and the Void Elves people are overlooking: both shine with space-time abilities.

The Nightborne have plenty of timestop and teleportation arcane magic, and the Void Elves are very well known for their rifts (especially Alleria, who travels across the universe in her short story).

It would be a poor choice by the writers to overlook that and not use it as a narrative device.
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:51 AM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is online now

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There's an important parallel between the Nightborne and the Void Elves people are overlooking: both shine with space-time abilities.

The Nightborne have plenty of timestop and teleportation arcane magic, and the Void Elves are very well known for their rifts (especially Alleria, who travels across the universe in her short story).

It would be a poor choice by the writers to overlook that and not use it as a narrative device.
Meh, both the Alliance and Horde had plenty of teleportation/portal capabilities before.
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:28 AM
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The night elves burning Teldrassil themselves doesn't actually hurt the Horde anyway since the Horde's goal is getting them off Kalimdor, not taking the tree. That's primarily why I doubt it'll happen.
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:47 AM
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I think the burning of Teeldrassil is going to be an honest accident, like, she wasnt expecting to have this much destruction from her weapon. Or its going to be a hiroshima thing: she has this mega-powerful weapon, and she wants to test it on something, while also showing off her newfound power.

I would love it if she goes full 'murricaaaaaa!!! On the Alliance, just to watch the masses reaction.
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:57 AM
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Meh, both the Alliance and Horde had plenty of teleportation/portal capabilities before.
Side note from me: I hate easy teleportation. So easy to create plot holes or to be conveniently forgotten by the plot because it can turn hard situations into no-brainer trivial problems.

I also hate how Alleria's (and, by extension's the void elves') powers are so ill-defined. Too easy to become the "whatever the plot demands" ability.

Ok, rant off.
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Old 02-15-2018, 09:09 AM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is online now

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Side note from me: I hate easy teleportation. So easy to create plot holes or to be conveniently forgotten by the plot because it can turn hard situations into no-brainer trivial problems.

I also hate how Alleria's (and, by extension's the void elves') powers are so ill-defined. Too easy to become the "whatever the plot demands" ability.

Ok, rant off.
I agree. Making things like mass transportation be so easy is one of the things I don't like about the setting now. Just makes the world so much smaller than it already was, letting aside any plot holes that are bound to come up. As for Alleria, I agree, except that while it makes some sense to be able to do a lot of things with the Void, considering it's part of reality itself, it also makes it weird to have so many different schools of magic when a lot of what each can do is covered by the others.
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Old 02-15-2018, 09:10 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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The Nightborne have plenty of timestop and teleportation arcane magic, and the Void Elves are very well known for their rifts (especially Alleria, who travels across the universe in her short story).
...void elves aren't "very well known" for anything.

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The night elves burning Teldrassil themselves doesn't actually hurt the Horde anyway since the Horde's goal is getting them off Kalimdor, not taking the tree. That's primarily why I doubt it'll happen.
Frankly this is why I think it's probably Sylvanas' doing. She might figure the only way to get the night elves - and therefore the Alliance - to give up on Kalimdor once they're forced out is to just scorch the earth wherever there's something they care about, erasing everything worth having that they would fervently seek to retake.

Since Malfurion's seemingly involved in the whole thing this time around, Sylvanas might be banking on him pulling up stakes and leaving if she just gets rid of all the World Trees and the like in Kalimdor so he and his druids will leave to protect nature somewhere else instead.

Otherwise, the whole idea of driving the Alliance out of Kalimdor is just plain ignoring that the night elves are, for all intents and purposes, religiously compelled to never stop fighting for the continent as long as things like Nordrassil, Teldrassil and even the Great Trees in Ashenvale and Feralas still exist along with their cultural obligation to protect them.

One might remember that while the Sunwell was gone blood elves were increasingly willing to pack their bags and leave behind the devastated forests of Quel'thalas to move to Outland as their new "promised land" with Kael'thas (that is, until they found out what was really going on there), so she may think that depriving the night elves of their cultural and faith-based ties to Kalimdor will more readily convince them to stay away once they're driven out.

Last edited by ARM3481; 02-15-2018 at 09:14 AM..
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