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  #5051  
Old 04-27-2018, 10:44 AM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
And none of that informs the playability of the nightborne or night elves.

In your haste to fanboy over the nightborne you've completely missed my point.
we look good, they look ugly

our ears point up, our skin color is different
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  #5052  
Old 04-27-2018, 01:32 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Happy late lunch hour.

On the Discord this morning, I floated the idea that Ion's response was simply a defense for the decision to make Void Elves over High Elves. When I finally got around to throwing the Q&A on for background listening, I noticed that, indeed, the actual question asked why they went with void elves over High Elves.

Any ideas on why Ion chose to respond with something negative (you're not getting High Elves, stop asking) instead of something positive? (We thought void elves were a better choice because of x, y, and z)
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  #5053  
Old 04-27-2018, 04:20 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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This is my contribution to the GCD situation on Death Knights (inspired by their recent change on Bloodbath):



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Originally Posted by Commander Rotal View Post
Isn't pissing these players off even further really dumb, though? I know if i wasn't bondaged to WoW by friends ("come play WoW with us! STO? Haha, what a funny story Rotal, no. come play WoW with us." yes, it's pathetic i know.) i'd do the same i did with Legion: sit out the No Flight crap unsubbed.

If i was an outlier that probably wouldn't be an issue but i've NEVER seen every single server in my list being Low Pop for weeks at a time. NEVER. I don't believe in the "1 to 2 million players left"-thing but i would be surprised if sub numbers are higher than during Classic. There's a reason they've opened the "Oh Shit"-drawer for Classic Servers and Allied Races. And yet they seem to have learned basically nothing, not even being able to deliver on Sub Races the way people actually asked for.
Oh, oh how much i look forward to the delicious tears when Classic comes out with balanced classes and and character boosts...
From what I learned in college, if I was the driver behind the development roadmap of World of Warcraft, I would definitely focus on the niche of players that are more enthusiastic about the game, therefore stood for longer periods and experienced the challenges the game offers, instead of trying to get back the ones who aren't that enthusiastic anymore, and don't spend that much time in game.

Many many many games, products and companies failed by trying to do the second.

That's why I believe I liked the Q&A, just as many others who played Legion as much as I did. Especially considering Ion's excellent input on recognizing how punishing and frustrating it is to have your DPS parse depend on a cooldown window, which may be completely screwed by certain boss mechanics. Knowing that they recognize this issue, and that they're making efforts to design around it, makes me very glad.

And I know it also makes other raiders and M+ players glad, because they suffer with it. These other guys will also react with "lol, Ion roasted High Elves" and probably have similar thoughts about Warcraft being morally grey across its entire main franchise.

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Happy late lunch hour.

On the Discord this morning, I floated the idea that Ion's response was simply a defense for the decision to make Void Elves over High Elves. When I finally got around to throwing the Q&A on for background listening, I noticed that, indeed, the actual question asked why they went with void elves over High Elves.

Any ideas on why Ion chose to respond with something negative (you're not getting High Elves, stop asking) instead of something positive? (We thought void elves were a better choice because of x, y, and z)
It's not characteristic of Ion.

It might have been a honest mistake.

it might also have been orders from above. Maybe when Metzen left, he made everyone sign a contract which said "if anybody asks you aboud High Elves, tell them to play Blood Elves".

It might also have been intentional. Having the fans talking about High Elves has given World of Warcraft free advertisement. Heck, free inbound marketing, even. Fans are constantly talking about it in the official forums, in the MMOChamp forums and all over Twitter.

Said discussion on High Elves has attracted former players. Giving such a teasing and provocative response riles up the discussion and stops it from settling, even if Blizzard's response is of an actual denial.

Everyone discussing Ion's answer - damn, he even said he'll accept all the hate mail for that - is playing right into Blizzard's social media marketing strategy. People are talking about World of Warcraft constantly even during a pre-expansion drought period, and that's unprecedent.

I honestly think it was strategical, be it Ion's decision to say in such a way or from a superior person.
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  #5054  
Old 04-27-2018, 04:38 PM
Feltongue Feltongue is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Happy late lunch hour.

On the Discord this morning, I floated the idea that Ion's response was simply a defense for the decision to make Void Elves over High Elves. When I finally got around to throwing the Q&A on for background listening, I noticed that, indeed, the actual question asked why they went with void elves over High Elves.

Any ideas on why Ion chose to respond with something negative (you're not getting High Elves, stop asking) instead of something positive? (We thought void elves were a better choice because of x, y, and z)
He's about as sick of it as the rest of us.
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  #5055  
Old 04-27-2018, 10:52 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Originally Posted by Feltongue View Post
He's about as sick of it as the rest of us.
Having to live with one self's moronic mistakes is, in fact, the toughest of shits. Just give Void Elfs a new skin and eye option and toggle the void form crap on and off you idiots, this is turning into Channel Awesome-levels of PR-disasters.
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  #5056  
Old 04-27-2018, 11:21 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Commander Rotal View Post
Having to live with one self's moronic mistakes is, in fact, the toughest of shits. Just give Void Elfs a new skin and eye option and toggle the void form crap on and off you idiots, this is turning into Channel Awesome-levels of PR-disasters.
A PR disaster or a successful social media marketing move?
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  #5057  
Old 04-27-2018, 11:38 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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A PR disaster or a successful social media marketing move?
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  #5058  
Old 04-28-2018, 12:47 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Commander Rotal View Post
And yet they are probably the most played Allied Race, alongside Nightborne, considering that neither Lightforged Draenei nor Highmountain Tauren can be Warlocks.



What about Rated PvP?

2v2:


(source)

3v3:


(source)

RBG:


(source)

Yeah, numbers say they are fine and performing well among Allied Races.

Token price is also stable, meaning that people are still interested in the game, even more than a few months ago.
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  #5059  
Old 04-28-2018, 12:59 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Although I like Ion and have also grown weary of this topic, I don't think that him behaving unprofessionally ought to be celebrated, regardless of which side we're on.

At times it feels like Blizzard grew too large, too quickly and is not yet accustomed to its notoriety and the burdens that come with it.
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  #5060  
Old 04-28-2018, 01:15 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Although I like Ion and have also grown weary of this topic, I don't think that him behaving unprofessionally ought to be celebrated, regardless of which side we're on.
I don't think we can call that unprofessionally at this point.

If you open the General Discussion forums right now, people are still at it.

If he had behaved "professionally", and said something akin to what Deicide suggested, people might not have felt outraged or disrespected, and a considerable portion of the debates on the matter would be called to an end.

The Anti-HE group also wouldn't be enthusiastic as they are towards Ion right now. He became some kind of idol to them back when the QA had just happened.

It looks to me like a thought-out move. A move intended to translate into free brand mentions, and not kill the social capital cash cow like a more respectful move would do.

Oh, and don't forget that brand mentions translate into rankings.
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  #5061  
Old 04-28-2018, 01:24 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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And yet they are probably the most played Allied Race, alongside Nightborne, considering that neither Lightforged Draenei nor Highmountain Tauren can be Warlocks.
Yes, out of only two options for Allied Races per faction the fact that one is played more than the other has nothing to do with them being the only thing that could be considered "new", sure.
Highmountain Tauren and Lightforged Draenei are pure jokes that shouldn't even be their own sub races but at least Highmountain Tauren get new antlers. Many Lightforged Draenei are indistuingishable from regular ones unless you really look at them, no shit Alliance players flock to the one that at least gives them a new skeleton to look at. *I* play one and i don't even like them, for the pure reason that it shaved off a few minutes of levelling an Alliance alt to level with a friend who was already 30. Stop sucking Ion's cock, he's probably got people paid to do that for him.
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  #5062  
Old 04-28-2018, 01:53 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Yes, out of only two options for Allied Races per faction the fact that one is played more than the other has nothing to do with them being the only thing that could be considered "new", sure.
Highmountain Tauren and Lightforged Draenei are pure jokes that shouldn't even be their own sub races but at least Highmountain Tauren get new antlers. Many Lightforged Draenei are indistuingishable from regular ones unless you really look at them, no shit Alliance players flock to the one that at least gives them a new skeleton to look at. *I* play one and i don't even like them, for the pure reason that it shaved off a few minutes of levelling an Alliance alt to level with a friend who was already 30.
You were the one who first suggested that Void Elves aren't fine. I just presented you numbers. Numbers that show that Void Elves even beat Dwarves, Draenei and Gnomes in some scenarios.

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Stop sucking Ion's cock, he's probably got people paid to do that for him.
Keep whimpering, whining and moaning about corporate positioning decisions and you'll always play right into their hands, vocally complaining about what they're doing and never understanding why such actions got an okay pass through social media marketers and RP professionals.
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  #5063  
Old 04-28-2018, 02:06 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I don't buy into the "'There's no such thing as bad publicity" myth. Sorry, Krainz.

Also, to everyone, please keep this clean.
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  #5064  
Old 04-28-2018, 02:23 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I don't buy into the "'There's no such thing as bad publicity" myth. Sorry, Krainz.
Context is important.

Remember WoD? That was a case of bad publicity, when features were cut and the content drought came. "You think you want but you don't" only made things worse.

Bad publicity was very real in the days of WoD, and Blizzard had to take drastic measures.

The times are different now. Legion is an all-around successful expansion, with players praising it all over social media communities. We have M+, raiding, and we even are at the second edition of the Mythic Dungeon Invitational, a completely new form of e-sport that was completely unimaginable in the days of WoD.

Expectations are high over BFA, mainly because of KulTiras and Zandalar.

"The Horde is waiting for you" sends the same message, but with different translations and results in comparison to "You think you want, but you don't". Why? Because of context.

EDIT:

See this:

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&...&q=ion%20elves

If I were Blizzard's Social Media Analyst or even Inbound Marketing Specialist, I would be grinning from ear to ear by seeing that.

Even more so when seeing this:

https://www.change.org/p/ion-hazziko...iter=284239116

I would most surely hope for the above petition to get an immense amount of signatures. Think on the headlines. Think on the gaming websites talking about the community of WoW players who are very creative and so passionate to the point of gathering an incredible amount of signatures to their petition, so they can request their favorite elf race into the game.

That would be just glorious, if I was on the Social Media Marketing team.

And that makes the situation itself even better because WoW is performing well.

Speaking of news headlines, I just found this: https://www.usgamer.net/articles/wow...orde-evil-beta
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  #5065  
Old 04-28-2018, 02:43 AM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Although I like Ion and have also grown weary of this topic, I don't think that him behaving unprofessionally ought to be celebrated, regardless of which side we're on.

At times it feels like Blizzard grew too large, too quickly and is not yet accustomed to its notoriety and the burdens that come with it.
"When the Business is hot, you can do no Wrong."

"When the Business is Cold, you can do no Right"

Blizzard's attitude is gonna be the death of them in the long run. Even if WoW isnt thier moneymaker anymore, if it goes under like it nearly did with WoD, it will be dire news indeed.

They can't afford to be like how Ion is now.
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  #5066  
Old 04-28-2018, 02:53 AM
Joeygiggles Joeygiggles is offline

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...seems like some of you are taking this High Elf thing a little to seriously
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  #5067  
Old 04-28-2018, 03:03 AM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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...seems like some of you are taking this High Elf thing a little to seriously
If you can't trust them to not be arrogant cocks about small questions what in the shit makes you think they can tackle bigger ones and not be even worse?

This is of course not even going into the part about how they think Orcs Vs. Humans had nuance and complexity in it's setup which speaks to another part of the Problem.


Blizzard thinks they can do whatever the fuck they want and lie to the Players directly, or genuinely thinks they make interesitng complex stories when they do whatever the fuck they're doing to the plot.

High elves are the least of the worries.
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  #5068  
Old 04-28-2018, 03:14 AM
Joeygiggles Joeygiggles is offline

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If you can't trust them to not be arrogant cocks about small questions what in the shit makes you think they can tackle bigger ones and not be even worse?

This is of course not even going into the part about how they think Orcs Vs. Humans had nuance and complexity in it's setup which speaks to another part of the Problem.


Blizzard thinks they can do whatever the fuck they want and lie to the Players directly, or genuinely thinks they make interesitng complex stories when they do whatever the fuck they're doing to the plot.

High elves are the least of the worries.
Yea I still stand by what I said. Your response is proof.
They have answered difficult questions and many of the responses have been well received. The topic isnt about Orcs and Humans its about High Elves. Technically yes Blizzard can do what they want it is their game. I don't see where they directly lie to us. To sit here and think everything they want to do with an expansion is truth and 100% going into the game really shows how little people know how a development process actually works.
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  #5069  
Old 04-28-2018, 03:21 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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...seems like some of you are taking this High Elf thing a little to seriously
Do you guys see?

Joey is similar to me and my fellow guildies who saw nothing wrong with Ion's response regarding High Elves.

Joey is, as far as I know, a raider and a player who geared through M+. He probably played through the course of the expansion and sought to beat the game's challenges.

This is the kind of enthusiastic player Blizzard is focusing on. Their niche. The ones who talk about the game, and generate both money revenue and brand value through indicators such as brand mentions and organic reach.

The ones who constantly post on the General Discussion forums are often known as being overly more casual, even those who are part of game races fan communities. Yes, they do generate some money revenue, but they don't attract more players nor improve the brand's presence as much as the enthusiastic players from the former example do.

The guys from the second example even often return to the game because their friends call them. And guess in which of these two categories their friends would most likely fall on?

All in all, what Fenixhart said is absolutely correct. Moves like this one we're discussing will most certainly backfire if BFA turns out to be a WoD.

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This is of course not even going into the part about how they think Orcs Vs. Humans had nuance and complexity in it's setup which speaks to another part of the Problem.
I kind of agree with Ion's answer to the Horde question:

Quote:
Evil, you know, is a matter of perspective. There's probably a lot of Alliance players asking "what are you talking about, you've been evil the whole time".

[...] The Horde has many faces to it, and there are aspects of what the forsaken have represented for a long time, but have not necesarily been directly in line with what the tauren represent, for example. I mean, compare the events at the Wrathgate to what you know about tauren culture. Yet there's been an uneasy partnership for these groups for some time, and there are similar tensions to some of the discordance that we see throughout the other factions.

It's that these aren't monolithic [?].

That said, evil, again, there's a lot of harsh things to happen in war in general. When groups are fighting for survival, in the end of the day, they resort to desperate measures when it comes to the choice between that and extinction. There's a lot of story to tell going forward, I don't wanna dig too far into this but both sides should be worried about that.

I think Azeroth is a world of gray, it's never been a world of black or white. I think that's one of the things that is the defining aspects of the franchise from its release dates. You look at Warcraft: Orcs and Humans and the stories told in that world and you look at it there's these noble recognizable folks who look like us and these giant green brutish monsters and naturally might assume "okay, right, humans are good guys and orcs are evil because they look like monsters", but that's not what Warcraft is about. There's more nuance and that's not changing anytime soon.
But I don't think that would be a surprise, given my recent posts about villainy in war and the such.
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  #5070  
Old 04-28-2018, 09:08 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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  #5071  
Old 04-28-2018, 10:51 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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  #5072  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:16 AM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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Yea I still stand by what I said. Your response is proof.
They have answered difficult questions and many of the responses have been well received. The topic isnt about Orcs and Humans its about High Elves. Technically yes Blizzard can do what they want it is their game. I don't see where they directly lie to us. To sit here and think everything they want to do with an expansion is truth and 100% going into the game really shows how little people know how a development process actually works.
If you can't see any outright falsehoods in that transcript then there ain't any helping you.

Hint: Check the Horde story section. Or any time they try to say how "Both sides are equally bad"

Their heads are so far up their own asses they're high of their bowel fumes. I don't need to know how development works to know that what I'm seeing and what they are saying is the case are in direct conflict with one another.
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  #5073  
Old 04-28-2018, 12:54 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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No, the Horde is monolithic. It shouldn't be, but it is because without fail, every goddamned time its worst elements start acting up and coming to the fore, every dissenting voice representing its less psychopathic agencies clams up and does jack shit about it. The Horde defaults back to being its old First War self, and just because they don't use demon blood to do it we're expected to consider its behavior subjective and "gray" when it outright violates the stated beliefs and behavioral standards of half or more of its member races.

Sylvanas is even condemning the whole idea of honorable conduct at this point - something even Garrosh never did - and Saurfang basically just shrugs and gives up. "Oh well, guess we're the Old Horde again 'cuz ya said so."

So we get and apparently will continue to get situations like MoP, where the orcs run roughshod over everyone else in the Horde, then after we beat them, Blizzard spits out some pathetic excuse about it only being a small minority of the orcs misbehaving top make the orcs players feel better about themselves. A small minority? Then where were the rest? Why the fuck did this overwhelming majority of the orcs put up with that bullshit? How worthless and pitiful are they, that their warrior spirits fizzled out and they became mute, compliant enablers of a vicious brute who systematically defiled their spiritual beliefs and abused their longtime friends and allies?

Worse, they deliberately use the "method" of telling the story poorly to manufacture an artificial assignment of blame to both sides. They go out of their way to leave fault ambiguous and who started the war unknown not by actual misunderstandings or miscommunication, but by just sloppily omitting shit that should not be omitted in a well-told story.

Except we've seen why the war starts. Sylvanas learned about Azerite, and decided she needs to control all of it. Anduin doesn't even know what the stuff is until his agents find out the Horde is after it, but Sylvanas sees it and it's off to the races. That's it. They told us as much in the post-Legion epilogues. This war is a bold-faced resource-grab for a resource that's only good to either side for fighting war, and everything after that has just been shoddy misdirection and malicious hatemongering from the devs to try to ram "faction pride" back down our throats.

There's nothing about either faction to be proud of. They're both poorly written and superfluous, and since their accumulation of Azerite gets in the way of the player using it to keep the planet from dying, they're both villainous agencies that need to be raided and torn down.

It's just sad and pathetic. What could have been the best expansion yet in Legion took a sharp nosedive halfway through to start prepping us for a plunge into the stagnant filth of another poorly written faction shitshow. And what's worse, the devs are excited about it. They seem more excited about it than they ever were about Legion, which they kicked off with an announcement at a non-Blizzcon expo where most of the audience were press people who didn't really give a shit. They're excited to delve back into the shallows of mediocre crap.

Incidentally, the "matter of perspective/morality is entirely subjective" argument is also B.S. because it's never the ground-floor explanation given. It's always a slapped-on attempted "fix" after the actual story being told paints the Horde as the clear and unjustified aggressors. It's predictably, 100% reliably the desperate fallback of the devs and the Horde's most rabid, least rational fans each time they spend half an expansion defending the Horde's actions, only to have it blow up in their faces when the Horde beats a paraplegic puppy farm to death with rusted corkscrews and they have to frantically dig up some way that such a thing can fit into their prior rationalizations.

Last edited by ARM3481; 04-28-2018 at 12:58 PM..
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  #5074  
Old 04-28-2018, 01:54 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Worse, they deliberately use the "method" of telling the story poorly to manufacture an artificial assignment of blame to both sides. They go out of their way to leave fault ambiguous and who started the war unknown not by actual misunderstandings or miscommunication, but by just sloppily omitting shit that should not be omitted in a well-told story.
The story isn't being omitted; it hasn't been released yet. We'll be able to talk about the actual storytelling of the war when the pre-patch event actually starts on live.
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Old 04-28-2018, 03:15 PM
Joeygiggles Joeygiggles is offline

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Originally Posted by Fenixhart View Post
If you can't see any outright falsehoods in that transcript then there ain't any helping you.

Hint: Check the Horde story section. Or any time they try to say how "Both sides are equally bad"

Their heads are so far up their own asses they're high of their bowel fumes. I don't need to know how development works to know that what I'm seeing and what they are saying is the case are in direct conflict with one another.
Holy shit dude. I said in my response that the topic we were discussing was the High Elf vs Void Elf nowhere was I discussing Orc vs Humans or the Horde in General. Thats a completely different topic one of which I was not talking about
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