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Old 06-01-2017, 07:49 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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"""Clean""" coal only filters particulate and does nothing to prevent CO2 emissions.
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  #54527  
Old 06-01-2017, 07:56 PM
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Clean coal doesn't exist, because burning coal will always result in toxic waste. And, given the fact that there's no functional way to store said waste, we end up with disasters waiting to happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingst...h_slurry_spill

Solar, wind, and other far less toxic forms of energy are now cheap enough that they're the more profitable investment in the long term. The EPA is correct in their assessment, coal needs to completely disappear from our energy grid in the next 12 years.
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Old 06-01-2017, 07:58 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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The main problem is that committing crimes against humanity is the best way to reverse climate change at our current technological level and most people do not want to admit it.

There needs to be better alternative energy sources. Even wind and solar can be damaging to the environment like any mass manufactured product on earth.
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Old 06-01-2017, 08:00 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
"""Clean""" coal only filters particulate and does nothing to prevent CO2 emissions.
You dont know what your talking about. Or, at least, are only looking at one "type" of clean coal.

The first clean coal plant opened earlier this year. They capture 90% of C02.

This particular plant sends it underground to force oil to the top, which is a safe use of it.

The second opens in Missouri sometime this year. Its going to be using a different system

Carbon capture coal are around. The U.S. is the first to use it for power generation..

I think Canadaland has a dam that does something similar, but building it was a trip and a half
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Old 06-01-2017, 08:08 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
Clean coal doesn't exist, because burning coal will always result in toxic waste. And, given the fact that there's no functional way to store said waste, we end up with disasters waiting to happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingst...h_slurry_spill

Solar, wind, and other far less toxic forms of energy are now cheap enough that they're the more profitable investment in the long term. The EPA is correct in their assessment, coal needs to completely disappear from our energy grid in the next 12 years.
It really doesnt.

And proper management stops issues like that. EPA enforced management.
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  #54531  
Old 06-01-2017, 08:26 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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It really doesnt.

And proper management stops issues like that. EPA enforced management.
1) Double post man...really?

2) Fly ash is a chronic issue with coal plants and retention ponds are inherently never going to be a viable solution. The EPA can't get proper regulations in to control it. They've tried and anti-Coal activists have pushed for controls in Congress, except pro-coal largely republican) groups have blocked them.

In fact, if we did finally get laws/regulations passed to properly handle this, then coal would no longer be a cost effective energy source. Same for oil and its related problems. We basically have a massive subsidy for both in the fact that we don't really account for the massive environmental and health problems they cause.
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Old 06-01-2017, 08:35 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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No one likes pollution but I think the government has less than altruistic motivations here. They just want to be able to control an industry which is why their solution to a lot of these issues are direct subsidies. Just like government workers or academia when someone is on the government payroll they have a perverse incentive to support that government at tax payer's expense. The subsidies will be given out based off of how much donations and voters they can get and not what is optimal for society. We don't have the mechanism in place to provide oversight against something like that and any attempt at accountability will be fought just like when anyone tries to rein the largess of government in. The government is just as corrupt, less accountable, and more powerful than business is.

There are some instances were solar, hydro, and wind are best. A big gap could be filled with nuclear power but there is a hysterical fear about it and the government regulated it out of existence despite the US Navy using it extensively and safely. It maybe a little longer to replace fossil fuels for some aspects of life but until then we should just make them less dirty like we have been for the last several decades. Despite still using mostly fossil fuels for energy the country is cleaner than it was in the past. This needs to be done in a sensible and systematic way with a lot of oversight.
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Old 06-01-2017, 08:36 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
1) Double post man...really?

2) Fly ash is a chronic issue with coal plants and retention ponds are inherently never going to be a viable solution. The EPA can't get proper regulations in to control it. They've tried and anti-Coal activists have pushed for controls in Congress, except pro-coal largely republican) groups have blocked them.

In fact, if we did finally get laws/regulations passed to properly handle this, then coal would no longer be a cost effective energy source. Same for oil and its related problems. We basically have a massive subsidy for both in the fact that we don't really account for the massive environmental and health problems they cause.
Wrong again.

South Carloina is starting something this year that is a test run to extract useful minerals from Coal Ash, and the rest gets entombed in glass. The solution is cheap, mobile, and proven to work.

It also generates rare earth minerals and the projected estimate to render inert all of SC's existing store is about a decade.

Its cheaper than storage as well.
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Old 06-01-2017, 08:39 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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One simple thing that proponents of electric cars and such seem to forget (I'm a proponent for electric cars but for other reasons) is that even if we all move over to electric cars we will still produce the same amount of diesel and gasoline. Without a use for it as fuel we'll most likely burn it to generate electricity for the electric cars. Fossil fuels are a too integral part of our entire technological society to remove it in any way.

Trump is getting my endorsement again after his withdrawal from the insane and catastrophic Paris accord, though only a little. Crippling western industry and economy while doing absolutely nothing about some of the worst polluters on the planet is retardedly demented.
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Old 06-01-2017, 08:43 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Wrong again.

South Carloina is starting something this year that is a test run to extract useful minerals from Coal Ash, and the rest gets entombed in glass. The solution is cheap, mobile, and proven to work.

It also generates rare earth minerals and the projected estimate to render inert all of SC's existing store is about a decade.

Its cheaper than storage as well.
Link?
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  #54536  
Old 06-01-2017, 09:01 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
Link?
Let me go ahead and retract it.

Few years since I saw the plan

Some sort of legal issue between them and Orbite.

However, Im still going to say you are wrong, just my time frame is off.

http://www.orbitetech.com/English/in...h/default.aspx

https://www.morningstar.com/news/can...7-results.html
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  #54537  
Old 06-01-2017, 09:23 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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This is one of those "Time will tell on how cost effective it really is" statements we just have to make. Personally, I don't think it will be cost-effective, because by the time coal plants in the US stop trying to fight the inevitable and implement tech to make coal clean enough for consistent use, we'll see other forms of energy surpass it with far less investment and maintenance necessary.

That said, this is still an estimate so, obviously we just need to wait and see.

In the end, and regardless of the final outcome of coal energy use, we'll need this tech for remediation anyway, so good on folks for putting the R&D in now.
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Old 06-01-2017, 09:39 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
This is one of those "Time will tell on how cost effective it really is" statements we just have to make. Personally, I don't think it will be cost-effective, because by the time coal plants in the US stop trying to fight the inevitable and implement tech to make coal clean enough for consistent use, we'll see other forms of energy surpass it with far less investment and maintenance necessary.

That said, this is still an estimate so, obviously we just need to wait and see.

In the end, and regardless of the final outcome of coal energy use, we'll need this tech for remediation anyway, so good on folks for putting the R&D in now.
Im all for R&D into both. Hands down, renewable will win eventually. It has to.

There was a process found not to long ago where the reaction of salt water and fresh water mixing creates shitloads of energy.
Its only a matter of time before coal us obsolete.

But we should develop both with the understanding that not everyone will switch to better sources due to money, infrastructure, ect.
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Old 06-02-2017, 12:33 AM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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I also heard that the US has to sink 100 billion dollars into other countries for climate change.

Fuck that shit. The US is better off using that 100 billion to address its own climate change initiatives and be the world leader in green energy.
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Old 06-02-2017, 01:08 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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I also heard that the US has to sink 100 billion dollars into other countries for climate change.

Fuck that shit. The US is better off using that 100 billion to address its own climate change initiatives and be the world leader in green energy.
its not 100 billion.

Its 100 billion a year by 2020. China and India are also exempt (they dont have to start trying) until 2030, I believe? It may have been 2020.

And, for all the talk of leadership, the Paris Accord is a non enforcable contract that is built upon the concept of peer preasure. Its literally a non issue he pulled out. Be could have signed and stayed in, and done nothing.
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Old 06-02-2017, 04:09 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Crippling western industry and economy while doing absolutely nothing about some of the worst polluters on the planet is retardedly demented.
You mean like China and India? They're part of the accords still, and have been since the start. And should they regulate their industries in such a way that their pollution is reduced, and global temperatures hopefully lowered, their economies will come to "suffer" just as much as Western industry and economy. Stop making it into some dumbass conspiracy about bringing down the West. It's not.

But given what an America under Trump spells for the future (and if his sentiments carry over into future administrations), I wouldn't really mind if they were surpassed by the Chinese or Russians. Those Eastern dudes are shaping up (well, at least the Chinese are, sort of) while America is taking a dive from grace.
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Old 06-02-2017, 04:46 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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When not even Viktor Orban can believe how dumb you're being, you know you've fucked up.

Oh btw, the 100 million US$ being contributed yearly is only by the developed countries explicitly for the support of non-developed countries. For everything else, the accord intends "Nationally Determined Contributions (INDCs)", which are to be re-evaluated every 5 years. It's not even close to enough, but it's a step forward.

You can be partisan and spin as many paranoid xenophobic delusions as you want on other topics. Please get your shit together when it comes to preserving an ecosystem that can sustain a healthy human population.
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Old 06-02-2017, 05:01 AM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
You mean like China and India? They're part of the accords still, and have been since the start. And should they regulate their industries in such a way that their pollution is reduced, and global temperatures hopefully lowered, their economies will come to "suffer" just as much as Western industry and economy. Stop making it into some dumbass conspiracy about bringing down the West. It's not.

But given what an America under Trump spells for the future (and if his sentiments carry over into future administrations), I wouldn't really mind if they were surpassed by the Chinese or Russians. Those Eastern dudes are shaping up (well, at least the Chinese are, sort of) while America is taking a dive from grace.
Cleanin' up your messes is what put us on top anyway. I'm sure you guys will deliver another opportunity sooner or later whilst we're gettin' to Mars and hunting multiple quadrillion dollar asteroids.
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Old 06-02-2017, 05:23 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Cleanin' up your messes is what put us on top anyway. I'm sure you guys will deliver another opportunity sooner or later whilst we're gettin' to Mars and hunting multiple quadrillion dollar asteroids.
With what space program? NASA's budget has been getting continually cut for decades, a manned Mars mission was once upon a time planned for the 2010-2020 period. How droll that seems now.
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Old 06-02-2017, 06:40 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Cleanin' up your messes is what put us on top anyway. I'm sure you guys will deliver another opportunity sooner or later whilst we're gettin' to Mars and hunting multiple quadrillion dollar asteroids.
Listen here, buddy, Sweden ain't been in no war for some two-hundred years. We're even better than Switzerland at peace and turncoat neutrality. Don't lump us together with our feisty, warmongering neighbours. The messes you've cleaned up are theirs.
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Old 06-02-2017, 08:26 AM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Listen here, buddy, Sweden ain't been in no war for some two-hundred years. We're even better than Switzerland at peace and turncoat neutrality. Don't lump us together with our feisty, warmongering neighbours. The messes you've cleaned up are theirs.
All you tea drinkin' boy lovers are the same to me.
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Old 06-02-2017, 08:32 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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All you tea drinkin' boy lovers are the same to me.
Hey, that's continentalist!
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  #54548  
Old 06-02-2017, 11:19 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Cleanin' up your messes is what put us on top anyway. I'm sure you guys will deliver another opportunity sooner or later whilst we're gettin' to Mars and hunting multiple quadrillion dollar asteroids.
Trump did tell NASA to focus less on climate change research and more on a manned mission to Mars.

Too bad Neil Armstrong had to see what Obama did to NASA before he died.

http://gizmodo.com/5517896/neil-arms...mas-space-plan
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Old 06-02-2017, 12:03 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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Space exploration needs be higher on the list.

Because contrary to what most people believe, the earth cannot sustain a large human population. Even if 100% clean energy. exists
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Old 06-02-2017, 12:11 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Space exploration needs be higher on the list.

Because contrary to what most people believe, the earth cannot sustain a large human population. Even if 100% clean energy. exists
It is a lot harder to buy votes through NASA funding so Democrats steer clear of it.
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