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  #9776  
Old 06-11-2017, 03:40 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I get that breed of British banter, and appreciate it in most cases. Hammerbrew's vengeful and xenophobic slurring against anyone who ever disagreed with or contradicted him wasn't exactly banter, though, was it? It was just hate.

K may be an ass, but he's willing to talk on a coherent level. He doesn't resort to flaming and shit-flinging whenever someone pisses him off or criticizes his behavior. He can be argued with. Hammerbrew couldn't.



From what I've read of the reports Kellick posted, everything except the final warning followed this formula.
1. I don't know what to say, Hammer was occasionally out of line by the standard of this forum and some moderation was perhaps called for (and he did get that ban) but generally I found his posts interesting and likeable. Not much point in discussing tastes I guess.

2. To me it doesn't matter if someone is "coherent" or not while being a dick. If anything I find it a greater offense because it means the person is doing it with a calm and premeditated mindset. They are out to troll or worse, meanwhile we all get angry some times. Some of us more than others.

3. IIRC Hammer only got one short ban as far as official sanctions go. This is incidentally part of what I am talking about. We have pretty lax or nonexistent moderation so people are unsurprisingly pretty flippant about it (oh no they're gonna ass me or give me 3 days, pffft) then suddenly bam, perma banned, gg no re. More steps are clearly needed here.
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  #9777  
Old 06-11-2017, 03:41 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
That one I will agree with.
Yeah, Hammer was definitely out of line with some what he said, but I think a system of warnings is preferable to an outright ban.

The problem is that anything the mods do will now be seen through a political lens, in part because the political threads are so polarizing.

What posters here need to realize and remember is that the mods represent a wide spectrum of beliefs. You've got Bolvar (religious conservatism), Kellick (centrist/liberal moderate), Omacron (transhumanism), and others.

So it's unfair and inaccurate to say that Hammer's ban was due to some political bias on the part of the moderation team.
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  #9778  
Old 06-11-2017, 03:42 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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I wish to say a few things on this issue. Some of it are questions for admins or moderators, any of them can answer.

First of all, I will say that I agree with, I think it was Ferlion, who said that a 90-days ban would have been a better idea, for the same reasons Ferlion stated.

Second, I also support the idea of the final warning. Maybe making a thread where only mods can post that would be some kind of register of final warnings, to make the situation clear. Of course, the downside would be that evil posters would try to trigger theses people to have them banned, so I guess we would need to find a solution. Not a complete idea, but the beginning of an idea nonetheless.

Third, are there discussions among the moderators and administrators right now about the snide comments and shitposting? I feel that, depending on the poster, theses two sometimes surpass aggressive posting in terms of "most hated behavior". We've seen an augmentation of regulation concerning aggressive posting, but are there any plans to also boost the regulation for theses two types of posting, snide posting and shitposting?

Finally, how did it happen? Like, did Kellick pick the unlucky number and had to announce it or did he volunteer or was he mandated for some obscur reason? That's not really a pertinent question, I am just curious.
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  #9779  
Old 06-11-2017, 03:45 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
No fucking way, I am not backing down.
Either Cucktus is permanently removed from any position of power on this site or Hammer is given a temporary ban or they can just fucking go ahead and hand me a permanent ban because this is war.

Fist they came for Hammer and you applauded. Then they came for Gani and you cheered. Then they came for Frost and you laughed. Next for the purge was Yaska and you shrugged. Then they came for you because Cucktus has a bleeding arsehole and none was left to say anything.
C'mon man, do you really think raging and telling the mods they're fellating each other is going to help? You're shooting yourself in the foot here, take a note from C9 or Ruin at least.
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  #9780  
Old 06-11-2017, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
No fucking way, I am not backing down.
Either Cucktus is permanently removed from any position of power on this site or Hammer is given a temporary ban or they can just fucking go ahead and hand me a permanent ban because this is war.

Fist they came for Hammer and you applauded. Then they came for Gani and you cheered. Then they came for Frost and you laughed. Next for the purge was Yaska and you shrugged. Then they came for you because Cucktus has a bleeding arsehole and none was left to say anything.
Your obsession with Cantus is unhealthy.
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  #9781  
Old 06-11-2017, 03:48 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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On an unrelated note, can we make the 'assing' picture non-animated?
Or at least remove it from perma-banned posters? It makes some old threads unreadable.
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  #9782  
Old 06-11-2017, 03:51 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
this is war
Pfhwa... What? I'm not sure your allies are likely to follow you into Valhalla just because the mods made a few decisions you don't like.

Nonane and Ferlion at least still seem willing to talk it out. Cosmictimelion will probably throw a fit when he finds out about this, but I'm not sure how many others would be willing to get themselves banned just to make a point about how noble a martyr they'd make.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #9783  
Old 06-11-2017, 03:51 PM
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Moving pretty fast in this thread, and I may not be able to keep track of every single post. If I don't respond to your concern specifically, try again later.

I appreciate the feedback. Ruinshin, C9H20, Hlaalu, etc., you've raised an issue which has been discussed in the past, and likely will have to be again. Rules changes are a particularly thorny subject, and we want to be as open as possible. I obviously can't do anything unilaterally, but any changes that would be made to the rules, I'd prefer we get everyone onboard.

The issue of posting style, and which ones people may find more or less disruptive is a tricky thing to adjudicate. For now, the best solution I can offer now is that if you see a post you find to be particularly incriminating, use the Report function. It's the best way to let staff know you think someone's violating the rules.

@Marthen. Care to elaborate? As this was an enforcement of the rules, rather than a rules change, I'm not entirely certain I see your concern.
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  #9784  
Old 06-11-2017, 03:57 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
No fucking way, I am not backing down.
Either Cucktus is permanently removed from any position of power on this site or Hammer is given a temporary ban or they can just fucking go ahead and hand me a permanent ban because this is war.

Fist they came for Hammer and you applauded. Then they came for Gani and you cheered. Then they came for Frost and you laughed. Next for the purge was Yaska and you shrugged. Then they came for you because Cucktus has a bleeding arsehole and none was left to say anything.
At this point, it seems perfunctory to go through the motions, but I'm a rules guy.

Yaskaleh, this is an official warning. This was not a political decision. Cool your jets.
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  #9785  
Old 06-11-2017, 03:57 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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I don't know anything about what happened but if i had to guess going after other posters was probably the tipping point.
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  #9786  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:02 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
Pfhwa... What? I'm not sure your allies are likely to follow you into Valhalla just because the mods made a few decisions you don't like.

Nonane and Ferlion at least still seem willing to talk it out. Cosmictimelion will probably throw a fit when he finds out about this, but I'm not sure how many others would be willing to get themselves banned just to make a point about how noble a martyr they'd make.
In all honesty? I was actually pretty close to walking away over this last Cantus/PJ issue (not to reinforce the hate towards him. But it is what it is, and its a largely idealogical disagreement, I think). Like, didnt post for a few days, wanted to not let other things influence what I was doing.

Its just, generally, my policy isnt to just walk away from something I enjoy without fighting for it, and Im aware that, while I dont agree with many of the actions taken on these forums, I know its likely not done maliciously.

If and when I leave, it wont be in a blaze of anger. Anger means I care and am willing to fight. It will be in apathy, because what I loved was snuffed out.
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  #9787  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:04 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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It would be nice of vBulletin had some sort of actual warning system. Something visual, mods give a warning, it shows up on your profile or something as a mark that goes away after a set period of time.
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  #9788  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:04 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
At this point, it seems perfunctory to go through the motions, but I'm a rules guy.

Yaskaleh, this is an official warning. This was not a political decision. Cool your jets.
This was 100% a fucking decision based upon personal feelings and political views. I will spell it out for you so that even you can fucking understand it.

Go.

Fuck.

Yourself.

With.

A.

Chainsaw.

does that help you in your purge, oh glorious Gestapo? Hail fuhrer Cucktus!
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  #9789  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:05 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
It would be nice of vBulletin had some sort of actual warning system. Something visual, mods give a warning, it shows up on your profile or something as a mark that goes away after a set period of time.
There is an infraction system that, if set up correctly, can start stripping rights away from users based on current infraction points.

SoL currently doesnt use it according to Cantus due to it being messy to set up.
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  #9790  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:08 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
*Rant*
Alright, that's crossed a line imo man.
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  #9791  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:10 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
There is an infraction system that, if set up correctly, can start stripping rights away from users based on current infraction points.

SoL currently doesnt use it according to Cantus due to it being messy to set up.
Don't we have a person or two who's decent at fixing vBulletin's fuck-ups? Bolvar maybe?
That or it might be worth looking into upgrading to a newer version.
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  #9792  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:10 PM
Torch Torch is offline

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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
This was 100% a fucking decision based upon personal feelings and political views. I will spell it out for you so that even you can fucking understand it.

Go.

Fuck.

Yourself.

With.

A.

Chainsaw.

does that help you in your purge, oh glorious Gestapo? Hail fuhrer Cucktus!
Calm down snowflake
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  #9793  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:23 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Alright, that's crossed a line imo man.
Heres the thing, and with respect to Kellicks answer...

I get Yasks anger.

You can say its not pollitically driven all you want, but when the rules as they currently exist are more prone to snag the (stereotypical, I admit) brash rightwingers, and multiple complaints of the other sides toxic behavior is "discussed" but never really moved on, its pretty easy to see why people are angry.

And I understand that, from a rulemaking stand point, its not as simple as just stating something..

But hell yeah, I agree right now theres no incentive or belief for Yask/Hammer/ect to give the mod team the bbenifit of the doubt, because as it stands, only their brand of toxic behavior (to varying degrees) gets called out with any consequences.

And Im not going to report stuff. Last time I reported something I thought was overtly toxic, I got the "Sorry, not against the rules" response.

Which is true, sure. But thats the problem. Moderation may be enforcing the rules, but the rules only seem to cover against the brand of toxicity that our right wing/ conservative 0posters tilt towards.

And the other types of toxic behavior ARE constantly pointed out and nothing comes from it.

So yes, Yask is 100% justified in his anger, if not his reaction.

I'll admit even Im a tad annoyed with the "Its been talked about before,and will be again" response.

I just have the experience moderating different personalities to know its not a simple solution that Yask might (honestly dont know) lack

Quote:
Don't we have a person or two who's decent at fixing vBulletin's fuck-ups? Bolvar maybe?
That or it might be worth looking into upgrading to a newer version.
Im not familiar enough with the backend of the system to offer to upgrade to a newer version, and I know Cantus said a CSS person should speak up. Warlock is too busy with it.
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  #9794  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:27 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Can you help me understand your concerns? Because I'm honestly puzzled.
Well, for starters, there are those rather sound arguments brought forward by C9 and Destron. Despite the evident increase in the staff's activity, there hasn't been much success in making the moderation more transparent and in touch with the folks. Which is something you do not want to happen when making such a large turn from a Wild West place to a well moderated forum. You will lose a substantial number of posters, both those valued and those not. Some to bans that could have been ultimately avoided, some voluntarily. And if this happens, chances are that the local repertoir will turn far too poor to keep being actually interesting, and at the same time, the forum will keep on the same path, the staff's current formula having less and less opponents, turning into a joyless safe space in the end.

But eh, it matters little, it is just my personal view, and I am one single guy. Even if this turns the way I describe, and I find this place no longer enjoyable as a whole, my departure won't affect much, if anything.
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  #9795  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:31 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
So yes, Yask is 100% justified in his anger.
Just to be clear, are we distinguishing between 'anger' and 'actions'? His anger may be justified, but does that allow him to break the forum's rules?
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #9796  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:31 PM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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Come on you can be conservative and not behave yourself in a disgraceful and vitriolic manner.
Plenty of people on this forum have shown that.

So people who cannot communicate without throwing shit around are anti socials that happen to be conservative, not the other way around.
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  #9797  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:33 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post

You can say its not pollitically driven all you want, but when the rules as they currently exist are more prone to snag the (stereotypical, I admit) brash rightwingers, and multiple complaints of the other sides toxic behavior is "discussed" but never really moved on, its pretty easy to see why people are angry.
The thing is though, the mods have at least one hardcore conservative among their members, and he's not the type to back down easily. Likewise, Warlock is also conservative.

The less brash right-wing posters haven't been hurt by this. If Pajamasalad or Mertico got snagged, I'd say you have a point, but that seems pretty unlikely. I don't think it can honestly be said that the mods are punishing people based off of politics.
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  #9798  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:38 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
Just to be clear, are we distinguishing between 'anger' and 'actions'? His anger may be justified, but does that allow him to break the forum's rules?
Quote:
So yes, Yask is 100% justified in his anger, if not his reaction
.

I actually added in an edit for just that.

Quote:
Come on you can be conservative and not behave yourself in a disgraceful and vitriolic manner.
But why should they have to when liberal posters behave in a disgraceful and vitriolic manner, even if its a different type of disgrace and vitriol?

To be clear, I said stereotypically. I meant that. Yoggy (a repeated offender) skews much closer to the Hammerbrew style of posting, and he's liberal.

My personal belief is he just doesnt post enough to warrant the ban.

Its why I said "our conservatives". With few exceptions, SoLs "right wing group" (quotes, because its never that simple) tend to have that brash style.

Quote:
The less brash right-wing posters haven't been hurt by this. If Pajamasalad or Mertico got snagged, I'd say you have a point, but that seems pretty unlikely. I don't think it can honestly be said that the mods are punishing people based off of politics.
I dont think they are, exactly. But I understand the perception that they arr.

Especially when our toxic liberal posters tend to share a type of toxicity that isnt punished.

And yes, I think thats coincidence.

But it doesnt really matter from the Conservatives view. All they see, and all they should be reasonably expected to see, is their toxic behavior being punished, and the other sides not.

There are posters who feel its politically motivated. Its foolish to brush that conception aside and pay it no mind.

Chances are, they are wrong.... But theres still a reason they feel that way, and just because they misread the issue doesnt mean the issue doesnt exist.
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  #9799  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:44 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt View Post
Come on you can be conservative and not behave yourself in a disgraceful and vitriolic manner.
Plenty of people on this forum have shown that.

So people who cannot communicate without throwing shit around are anti socials that happen to be conservative, not the other way around.
This type of posting is really just taunting and is hardly constructive.
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  #9800  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:51 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Speaking as just a lowly peon, I did not want to see Hammerbrew banned. I happened to actually quite like him - even though I personally found a lot of what he said about politics to be quite toxic. So in the Maker's Terrace when the discussion about Hammerbrew was happening (specifically after people had messaged concerns about his 'mudslime' post) I actually spoke against banning him. But it was the view of the majority that because of the repeated pleas/warnings/suspensions previously (including one extended-absence that I had personally given him years and years ago), that a permanent ban would be what was appropriate.

So with all that being said, I think I am extremely-qualified in saying that the idea that Hammerbrew is being persecuted for his political beliefs to be absurd. I spent over an hour yesterday reading through his last 500~ posts and there was just an undeniable pattern of him being abusive towards others. Whether it was in its mildest form by taking the least-charitable interpretation of people's arguments and motives, or in its worst form by outright bullying others in the community - even by flaming people who weren't even involved in whatever flame war he was currently having! It doesn't matter whether you identify as a liberal, conservative or green alien - that type of behavior definitely qualifies as harassment. And that's no way to have a community.

So those are just my two coppers on this topic.

Last edited by Shaman; 06-11-2017 at 06:08 PM..
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