Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 04-19-2017, 03:10 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

Arch-Druid
Asterisk's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: The Lanes Between
Posts: 1,412

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shekinah View Post
When was this? If it was part of the DK artifact questline, I haven't done it, and haven't looked at anything about it.
Part of their campaign, yeah. Thassarian asks it as a personal favor.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 04-19-2017, 03:16 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

Arch-Druid
Shekinah's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: On a pale horse
Posts: 2,423

Mana

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterisk View Post
Part of their campaign, yeah. Thassarian asks it as a personal favor.
Well, that's anticlimactic.
__________________
I like to cook. Here's a thread on how it relates to Warcraft.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 04-19-2017, 08:55 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

Elune
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 21,434
BattleTag: Leviathonlx#1820

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shekinah View Post
Well, that's anticlimactic.
That entire quest was anti climatic and was quite clearly done just so they'd stop being asked about it.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 04-19-2017, 10:36 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

Elune
Lord Grimtale's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Slaughtered Lamb
Posts: 22,046
BattleTag: Grimtale67#1407

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolvar View Post
I think if they'd had any idea World of Warcraft would be around for so long, they would have made some better decisions on playable races... namely, the Forsaken should have not ever been one.
Well even without Forsaken there'd still be the Ebon Blade who are basically the Forsaken in playable class form.

I think everything Blizzard is doing with Forsaken is 100% intentional and why they added Forsaken all along, there is a niche appeal to playing an evil villain protagonist race and there are players who prefer to have those types of races as an option.

If only Blizzard also had the foresight to consider creating an anti-hero race that appeals to someone like me because I don't really enjoy playing a villain protagonist.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 04-19-2017, 11:27 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Well even without Forsaken there'd still be the Ebon Blade who are basically the Forsaken in playable class form.

I think everything Blizzard is doing with Forsaken is 100% intentional and why they added Forsaken all along, there is a niche appeal to playing an evil villain protagonist race and there are players who prefer to have those types of races as an option.

If only Blizzard also had the foresight to consider creating an anti-hero race that appeals to someone like me because I don't really enjoy playing a villain protagonist.
The problem, however, is that they have a villain faction that nobody's allowed to treat as the villain.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 04-19-2017, 11:43 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

Elune
Lord Grimtale's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Slaughtered Lamb
Posts: 22,046
BattleTag: Grimtale67#1407

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
The problem, however, is that they have a villain faction that nobody's allowed to treat as the villain.
This is quite true. It's probably why, despite all the kvetching over them attacking during a Legion invasion, Worgen arguably stand out as so likable now because they're the only ones not drinking the Kool-Aid and reacting realistically towards the Forsaken.

With groups like the Argent Dawn and now the Silver Hand, I almost half-expect they wouldn't give a second thought to the fact that the Forsaken just literally killed one of their own. They seemingly haven't shown much care after the Ebon Blade did it, and even personally asked the Ebon Blade to corrupt the Ashbringer a second time!

Because for whatever reason Blizzard doesn't seem to know how to write two opposing groups having to cooperate with each other without making them look stupid.

Last edited by Lord Grimtale; 04-19-2017 at 11:45 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 04-20-2017, 12:02 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
This is quite true. It's probably why, despite all the kvetching over them attacking during a Legion invasion, Worgen arguably stand out as so likable now because they're the only ones not drinking the Kool-Aid and reacting realistically towards the Forsaken.

With groups like the Argent Dawn and now the Silver Hand, I almost half-expect they wouldn't give a second thought to the fact that the Forsaken just literally killed one of their own. They seemingly haven't shown much care after the Ebon Blade did it, and even personally asked the Ebon Blade to corrupt the Ashbringer a second time!

Because for whatever reason Blizzard doesn't seem to know how to write two opposing groups having to cooperate with each other without making them look stupid.
Yeah. The Forsaken really are as bad as the Scourge. Their actions provided casus belli against the Horde—which was then promptly forgotten once Garrosh was ousted. They're the biggest monkey wrench in the plot, and have been since Cataclysm.

The Forsaken were badly handled. If they were intended to be a villainous group, than they should never have been playable. If they were intended to be playable, they should have been less evil.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 04-20-2017, 01:56 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

Banished
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,294

Default

Is Grimtale literally able to talk about anything thats not his furry fetish race?

I mean i love talking about elves and forsaken but thats at least 6 races and elven story is basically 50% of Azerothian story
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 04-20-2017, 02:05 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,518
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

Or evil who constantly face conflicts. Like the worgen lmao
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 04-20-2017, 02:06 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

Elune
Lord Grimtale's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Slaughtered Lamb
Posts: 22,046
BattleTag: Grimtale67#1407

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
Yeah. The Forsaken really are as bad as the Scourge. Their actions provided casus belli against the Horde—which was then promptly forgotten once Garrosh was ousted. They're the biggest monkey wrench in the plot, and have been since Cataclysm.

The Forsaken were badly handled. If they were intended to be a villainous group, than they should never have been playable. If they were intended to be playable, they should have been less evil.
Strangely, in this story it's the kind of evil I actually like since it's something that no one else knows about. I think Forsaken evil can work fine when it's shadowy, behind-the-scenes kind of evil and that fits them much better than just going all out with it as if they know that everyone is holding the idiot ball too much to notice... which unfortunately has happened now.
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:53 AM
Peger Peger is offline

Sentinel Queen
Peger's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Theramore
Posts: 802

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Worgen arguably stand out as so likable now
Nah, they're still easily the shittiest Alliance race. Bad fan fiction that should've never seen the light of day.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 04-20-2017, 08:29 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

Eternal
Ethenil's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,666

Default

Grimtale:

a) There are two classes of anti-heroes you can play, arguably four;

b) That Corrupted Ashbringer thing is not canon;

c) The storyline isn't over, and it's been hinted that these factions won't just stand around while the Ebon Blade does their stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 04-20-2017, 08:35 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,491

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Strangely, in this story it's the kind of evil I actually like since it's something that no one else knows about. I think Forsaken evil can work fine when it's shadowy, behind-the-scenes kind of evil and that fits them much better than just going all out with it as if they know that everyone is holding the idiot ball too much to notice... which unfortunately has happened now.
I dunno, I just wish the Forsaken had been the kind of folks that were evil to the evil folks.

The kind that'd have a Demon being vivisected on a table in the undercity or lobotomize cult of the damned members, not alliance humans.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 04-20-2017, 09:34 AM
Meta Meta is offline

Ranger
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 356

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
I dunno, I just wish the Forsaken had been the kind of folks that were evil to the evil folks.

The kind that'd have a Demon being vivisected on a table in the undercity or lobotomize cult of the damned members, not alliance humans.
I, too, wish the Forsaken had been treated this way. So far it appears that the role of "merciless toward the merciless" is performed in a much better fashion by the warlocks of the Black Harvest. They enslave demons, send you to kill cultists, collect the powers of ancient evil tomes and so on; everything that they do as a faction is against the Legion and their agents.

Arguably, the demon hunters under Altruis would fit it as well.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 04-20-2017, 10:41 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

Banished
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 9,773

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
That Corrupted Ashbringer thing is not canon;
Yeah, sorry, I remain less than convinced they won't go back on that in time.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:03 AM
Kiraser Kiraser is offline

Arch-Druid
Kiraser's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Saint Petersburg
Posts: 1,214

Default

A random thought. What if Nathanos' sudden burst of guilt was triggered by the transformation ritual? Like, he doesn't simply look more alive, he also feels more alive - so maybe part of his old humanity that was lost due to him being a zombie is now back too. It's very interesting to me, because such change might defy his character in the future. Will he leave his queen because now he sees the wrongness of her actions? Or will he remain by her side despite all perosnal odds with her rule?

What's even more interesting here is the new light shed on Sylvanas. She has similar preserved body, we know that she can smell stuff, we know that she can be quite emotional and even sensitive (in a twisted manner, but still) - so it's safe to assume that she's in the same boat as him. So she doesn't perform all her evil deeds just because she's twisted by her undead state. There's more to it - she always have a choice. So once again, what Nathanos might think of his queen now? Will he try to twist his moral sense as she did? Or he'll be horryfied by the fact that Sylvanas have chosen her path willingly - who knows.

With all that said, even if it's not the case, his views on the regular Forsaken might slightly change based on the sole fact that now he can smell their rot. Maybe they will disgust him. In any case, I don't really want a redemption story for this guy - he deserves all kinds of punishment for stuff that he did in his own accord. But... yeah, it's a bit more complicated. Some Forsaken are vile because they literaly became different people right after the ressurection - brain damage and dark magic can do the trick. Others didn't change that much due to their undead state and didn't have a psychological trauma because of it, but willingly became monsters because... they just could and they like it. And there are also others who weren't darkened by their new state of being (yet some of them still suffer from various psychological traumas) and simply want to live in peace. It's the the saddest thing about the tragedy of Lordaeron - it's not that simple as "spare them, they are good people!", or "they are undead, they must return to their graves!".
__________________
тче баттле бегонс...
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:06 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

The Sun King
Kir the Wizard's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Donetsk, Occupied Ukraine
Posts: 11,115

Undead Icon (War3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Creepier than that, really. Apparently she really wants Nathanos' old face and body back, but since she can't have that, a cousin who kinda resembles it is close enough.

Especially since the plan - and the specifics in particular - aren't Marris'. He doesn't really come across as eager or looking forward to having a better body. In fact he seems pretty minimally invested in the whole thing beyond "I'll do it because Sylvanas says so," which means it was entirely her idea to selectively choose a victim related to him, presumably so he'd look passingly similar to how he looked before he died.

This is some straight-up Criminal Minds stuff.
It's incredibly unsettling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
lmfao
1) The Forsaken are kidnapping Argent Crusaders
2) The Argent Crusade supports the Alliance in Lordaeron
3) The prisoners in Undercity are explicitly referred to as "Alliance" in the end so gg "actually they're Scarlet prisoners"
4) "Nathanos Marris is another man with another life"
5) Sylvanas has to kind of give up a Val'kyr to do this so we probably won't be seeing Human Forsaken models
6) "I am building a new kingdom, Nathanos, made up of the Forsaken dead freed from the Lich King's thrall"
7) Turns out that being Scourge isn't really a mind prison so much as an overwhelming compulsion to do whatever the master wants and nothing else matters.
And also this. Though it's not like them being Scarlet prisoners would have made torture and horrific experiments acceptable.



Overall: a very Undead story. I find it funny that Arthas, Anub'arak and Kel'Thuzad were all lighter, more relatable and more lovable characters than Sylvanas and her merry band of psychos are. Truly, now I understand what Tirion meant about the restless dead being even worse without their master. Kel'Thuzad and Arthas might have stuffed a meat titan with souls of women and children, but at least neither tried making themselves a corpsebride.

Last edited by Kir the Wizard; 04-20-2017 at 11:16 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:24 AM
Almed Almed is offline

Banished
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 314

Default

The Forsaken were a mistake.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:31 AM
Kiraser Kiraser is offline

Arch-Druid
Kiraser's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Saint Petersburg
Posts: 1,214

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Overall: a very Undead story. I find it funny that Arthas, Anub'arak and Kel'Thuzad were all lighter, more relatable and more lovable characters than Sylvanas and her merry band of psychos are. Truly, now I understand what Tirion meant about the restless dead being even worse without their master. Kel'Thuzad and Arthas might have stuffed a meat titan with souls of women and children, but at least neither tried making themselves a corpsebride.
Probably because they retained their humanity and clinged to it. Arthas sincerely called both the spider king and the lich his friends. He needed this comfort, and he wanted to be a proper king for some sort of Shadow Scourge Lordaeron. Kel'Thuzad seemingly felt the same about Arthas and he created an entire ideology that justified their actions - I think that he could believe in this ideology to not view himself as a complete monster. Anub'arak was enthralled by the Lich King - so he's a different case.

On ther other hand, Sylvanas often sees this "brighter" side of herself as a burden, and this side of hers is very twisted. Part of the Forsaken ideology is to give up on previous live. So a Forsaken might forsake their old morale code partly to embrace his new state of being.

Long story short, Arthas and Kel'Thuzad wanted to retain some humanity and did it, while some Forsaken are known to get rid of it and fully turn into amoral scum. And some of them simply couldn't retain their old personalities to the fullest extent - thus their moral sense was bound to become twisted as well.
__________________
тче баттле бегонс...
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:33 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

The Sun King
Kir the Wizard's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Donetsk, Occupied Ukraine
Posts: 11,115

Orb of Frost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post
The Forsaken being part of the Horde was a mistake.
More like this. Their TFT interpretation was not less evil than the rest of the Scourge. Just specifically more vengeful against Arthas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiraser View Post
Probably because they retained their humanity and clinged to it. Arthas sincerely called both the spider king and the lich his friends. He needed this comfort, and he wanted to be a proper king for some sort of Shadow Scourge Lordaeron. Kel'Thuzad seemingly felt the same about Arthas and he created an entire ideology that justified their actions - I think that he could believe in this ideology to not view himself as a complete monster. Anub'arak was enthralled by the Lich King - so he's a different case.
Exactly. This trio's interactions in TFT were pure gold and gave much credence to their characters. They ruled over the most terrible empire of evil, and yet somehow stayed so lovable.

I know Sylvanas has a lot of fans who justify her deeds with personal crises and tragedies, but I don't think she's ever been the same "chill" kind of an undead ruler as Arthas and his crew. She and her Forsaken are way more... macabre? Again, Scourge made a lot of messed up shit, but their leaders still somehow retained this humanity in them, that made them understandable, if evil, creatures.

Last edited by Kir the Wizard; 04-20-2017 at 11:38 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:36 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,977

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
More like this. Their TFT interpretation was not less evil than the rest of the Scourge. Just specifically more vengeful against Arthas.
The problem ultimately is that the Forsaken were planned for a playable race long time before the faction system became a thing. We know of them as far as 2000 goes, yet we know that factions were introduced only by 2002. It was likely too late to remove them at that point, so they shoehorned them into the Horde (likely the same with the Kaldorei).
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:42 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

The Sun King
Kir the Wizard's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Donetsk, Occupied Ukraine
Posts: 11,115

Default

You know, it's interesting how Arthas had no reunion with Jaina up until going full Lich King.

I wonder how a RoC/TFT Arthas would react in a meeting with Jaina.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:47 AM
Almed Almed is offline

Banished
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 314

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiraser View Post
Probably because they retained their humanity and clinged to it. Arthas sincerely called both the spider king and the lich his friends. He needed this comfort, and he wanted to be a proper king for some sort of Shadow Scourge Lordaeron. Kel'Thuzad seemingly felt the same about Arthas and he created an entire ideology that justified their actions - I think that he could believe in this ideology to not view himself as a complete monster. Anub'arak was enthralled by the Lich King - so he's a different case.

On ther other hand, Sylvanas often sees this "brighter" side of herself as a burden, and this side of hers is very twisted. Part of the Forsaken ideology is to give up on previous live. So a Forsaken might forsake their old morale code partly to embrace his new state of being.

Long story short, Arthas and Kel'Thuzad wanted to retain some humanity and did it, while some Forsaken are known to get rid of it and fully turn into amoral scum. And some of them simply couldn't retain their old personalities to the fullest extent - thus their moral sense was bound to become twisted as well.
The issue with your post is that you're using RTS Lore that got retconned out. Both WotLK and the Arthas novel show that Arthas never had any camaraderie with the other Scourge. The novel even cuts out Arthas calling KT his friend.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:57 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

The Sun King
Kir the Wizard's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Donetsk, Occupied Ukraine
Posts: 11,115

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post
The issue with your post is that you're using RTS Lore that got retconned out. Both WotLK and the Arthas novel show that Arthas never had any camaraderie with the other Scourge. The novel even cuts out Arthas calling KT his friend.
Like that's an "issue".

Whoever mourns on a novel POSSIBLY retconning something from the game lore (and in this case the retcon is assumed, not even confirmed) is one willingly choosing a life of misery for themself.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 04-20-2017, 12:22 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

Elune
SmokeBlader's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 30,980

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
I know Sylvanas has a lot of fans who justify her deeds with personal crises and tragedies, but I don't think she's ever been the same "chill" kind of an undead ruler as Arthas and his crew. She and her Forsaken are way more... macabre? Again, Scourge made a lot of messed up shit, but their leaders still somehow retained this humanity in them, that made them understandable, if evil, creatures.
Arthas was ''organized'', and efficient while Sylvie is more of a loose cannon and more extremist in her ways of killing/torturing people in the messiest ways possible.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
alien shadow ghosts, hot zombie action, literature, raw meat left in the sun, sylvanas is so hot, undead are not lordaeron, warcraft

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.