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Old 10-08-2013, 06:29 AM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Default The Political Evolution of Dalaran

I was reading a post in an Spanish fansite about the Seven Kingdoms and then I realized how little is really known about the political evolution of Dalaran.

I started to dig in my digital library and I found several interesting things, which I order below in chronogical order:

-2.800/-2.700: The city-state of Dalaran was founded between the Troll Wars (year -2800) and the founding of the Tirisfalen (year -2700) by magi that had left Strom and its strict laws governing magic.

The ruling archmagi, called Magocrats, devoted themselves to the arcane and housed their libraries and laboratories in the Violet Citadel, a towering spire in the heart of the city.

Soon, non-magical beings traveled to the city in order to provide services.

-2700: Given the problems with demons, the Magocrats and the elves formed a secret order: the Council of Tirisfal.

-2500/-1200: A sect is created in order to investigate the arcane: the Kirin Tor, at some point before the Empire of Arathor divided into the seven city-States.

-37: Antonidas is invited by the Ruling Council of Dalaran to the "Kirin Tor Advanced Research and Illumination Sect".

26: The Kirin Tor is referred as the Magus Senate of Dalaran.

Sources: Warcraft: Legends - 5, The Archmage Antonidas - Part 1 (ingame book), The Contact from Dalaran (quest), The Guardians of Tirisfal (ingame book).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is interesting to see the changes from an era to another. First we have a group of ruling archmagi lords and then we have a Ruling Council, a formal body of government.

Second, it's more interesting to see how recent the the Kirin Tor changed from being a research sect to being a senate. Sadly, we don't know the cause of such dramatical change and when that exactly happened (we only know it happened between year -37 and year 26).
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Last edited by Cemotucu; 11-05-2013 at 08:25 AM..
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Old 10-08-2013, 09:27 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Some things I'd like expanded info on:

1) Was Dalaran founded as a human-elven city, or did it began as a human settlement with elves joining later? If it was always a mixed city, is there a reason the majority of The Six have generally been humans throughout its history?

2) The Last Guardian mentions several members of the Kirin Tor who aren't noted anywhere else, during the First War era. Day of the Dragon establishes The Six and indicates that Drenden is the first among them, with no sign of Antonidas anywhere. Will Blizzard ever be awesome and tell us that the governing body of the Kirin Tor was ever-shifting, so that Antonidas lost and regained influence throughout certain years/events? Or is it all retconned that Antonidas was perpetual president until death, like Gelbin and the gnomes?
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Old 10-08-2013, 09:44 AM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Some things I'd like expanded info on:

1) Was Dalaran founded as a human-elven city, or did it began as a human settlement with elves joining later? If it was always a mixed city, is there a reason the majority of The Six have generally been humans throughout its history?
Already answered in The First Guardian manwha: it began as a human magi city. Later, non-magical beings moved to the city.

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
2) The Last Guardian mentions several members of the Kirin Tor who aren't noted anywhere else, during the First War era. Day of the Dragon establishes The Six and indicates that Drenden is the first among them, with no sign of Antonidas anywhere. Will Blizzard ever be awesome and tell us that the governing body of the Kirin Tor was ever-shifting, so that Antonidas lost and regained influence throughout certain years/events? Or is it all retconned that Antonidas was perpetual president until death, like Gelbin and the gnomes?
It would be awesome to know that: that Antonidas lose favor or something.
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Old 10-08-2013, 10:52 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Some things I'd like expanded info on:

1) Was Dalaran founded as a human-elven city, or did it began as a human settlement with elves joining later? If it was always a mixed city, is there a reason the majority of The Six have generally been humans throughout its history?

2) The Last Guardian mentions several members of the Kirin Tor who aren't noted anywhere else, during the First War era. Day of the Dragon establishes The Six and indicates that Drenden is the first among them, with no sign of Antonidas anywhere. Will Blizzard ever be awesome and tell us that the governing body of the Kirin Tor was ever-shifting, so that Antonidas lost and regained influence throughout certain years/events? Or is it all retconned that Antonidas was perpetual president until death, like Gelbin and the gnomes?

Maybe because it was the golden era of human mages during WC2, both Antonidas and Kel'Thuzad are very talented mages. Also the high elves have their own nation, they probably didn't want to share more info with the humans.
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Old 10-08-2013, 10:54 AM
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I'm just happy to see a Tea Party Patriot like Jaina rise up and remove Dalaran from the "neutral" international community and place the Kirin Tor back within the Alliance where it belongs.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:15 PM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

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In one of WoW's in-game books it says that Dalaran was already in existence when the mages left Strom. It even says that the people who lived there were wary at first of mages moving in, but after seeing how beneficial magic use was, they accepted the magi.

I have no idea if that's been retconned though.
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Old 10-08-2013, 06:06 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Originally Posted by Tilgath View Post
In one of WoW's in-game books it says that Dalaran was already in existence when the mages left Strom. It even says that the people who lived there were wary at first of mages moving in, but after seeing how beneficial magic use was, they accepted the magi.

I have no idea if that's been retconned though.
Yeap, it has been retconned. The events I described in the first post are the current canon.

It was a magi city from the beginning, now.

Sean Copeland also remembered the "old lore". He had to be reminded of the current canon: https://twitter.com/CEMOTucu/status/359424507846467585
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:26 AM
Sohrgath Sohrgath is offline

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About the Kirin Tor becoming governing body of Dalaran, there are many possibilities, among them:
1. The Kirin Tor haveing most magical knowledge was chosen as/merged with the ruling body of Dalaran;
2. Leader/member of the ruling body of Dalaran became leader/member of the Kirin Tor, through natural events or through the Kirin Tor's machinations;
3. Leader/member of the Kirin Tor became leader/member of the ruling body of Dalaran, through natural events or through the Kirin Tor's machinations;
These are just a few possibilities but anyway, currently what we know is that, leader of the Kirin Tor and Ruler of Dalaran are the same person and that person is chosen by the Six from members of the Kirin Tor.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
Yeap, it has been retconned. The events I described in the first post are the current canon.

It was a magi city from the beginning, now.

Sean Copeland also remembered the "old lore". He had to be reminded of the current canon: https://twitter.com/CEMOTucu/status/359424507846467585
Retcon again?
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:32 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Retcon again?
Yes, SPK. It has been retconned since the publishing of WLegends 5

About the specific topic, I'd like to think that young Antonidas played a part in the politization of the Kirin Tor.
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:12 PM
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They really should use retcon as "last resort", when there is no other ways and could greatly improve the story, not whenever they got some cool idea and want to get rid of the existing lore.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:25 PM
Sohrgath Sohrgath is offline

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Was Dalaran's old government elected or hereditary? If its latter then maybe Antonidas had some ties to the higher-ups in Dalaran. Also, Antonidas is reffered as monarch by Brann(though that may not be canon) and as lord by Arthas, but these may be because he was ruler of Dalaran.
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Old 10-10-2013, 05:39 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohrgath View Post
Was Dalaran's old government elected or hereditary? If its latter then maybe Antonidas had some ties to the higher-ups in Dalaran. Also, Antonidas is reffered as monarch by Brann(though that may not be canon) and as lord by Arthas, but these may be because he was ruler of Dalaran.
Pfff, you'd be hard pressed to find many mages who have last names. Good luck discovering who's related.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:02 AM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohrgath View Post
Was Dalaran's old government elected or hereditary? If its latter then maybe Antonidas had some ties to the higher-ups in Dalaran. Also, Antonidas is reffered as monarch by Brann(though that may not be canon) and as lord by Arthas, but these may be because he was ruler of Dalaran.
We don't know. I'll guess the Magocrat lords were the most powerful archmagi, but then they reduced their numbers to an Ruling Council of six archmagi who elected its own members.

My headcanon is that when the Kirin Tor became the Senate, the Six started to hide their identities (for the reasons given in Tides of Darkness: protection against blackmailing, etc.)
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Old 10-15-2013, 06:28 PM
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Who do you expect to be the new sixth member of the Six, now that Aethas has been expelled?
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Old 10-15-2013, 06:41 PM
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Who do you expect to be the new sixth member of the Six, now that Aethas has been expelled?
Drenden (former member), Cedric (leader of the Violet Eye), or Vargoth (leader of the Draenor Kirin Tor under Khadgar, has a loft in the Violet Citadel)?
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Old 10-15-2013, 06:46 PM
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Who do you expect to be the new sixth member of the Six, now that Aethas has been expelled?
A high elf. Probably the guy who gives the "X must die!" quests as he also was on the Isle of Thunder.
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Old 10-15-2013, 07:03 PM
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A high elf. Probably the guy who gives the "X must die!" quests as he also was on the Isle of Thunder.
Archimage Lan'dalock? I'm kinda expecting him as well.

He also has a cameo in Purge of Dalaran (Horde version). If you let yourself be captured by Jaina, you must fight him to escape the Violet Citadel.
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Old 11-04-2013, 01:52 PM
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Perhaps Kirin Tor gradually risen to be the most member-filled section with the highest-ranked officials working there, thus being integrated with the state itself. Think authoritarian and totalitarian states of Earth, when the party and the state were completely intermingled. Maybe fascist corporation would be a good analogy?
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Old 11-04-2013, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Perhaps Kirin Tor gradually risen to be the most member-filled section with the highest-ranked officials working there, thus being integrated with the state itself. Think authoritarian and totalitarian states of Earth, when the party and the state were completely intermingled. Maybe fascist corporation would be a good analogy?
Note that there are actually other dalaran factions in Warcraft III, which, solely based on name, would seem to overlap in role with the Kirin Tor: the mages' guild and the sorcerers' league. This would make a lot of sense with your explanation. Start out as multiple guilds, all the important people flock to one, effectively and eventually officially becoming the government.
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Old 11-04-2013, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
Archimage Lan'dalock? I'm kinda expecting him as well.

He also has a cameo in Purge of Dalaran (Horde version). If you let yourself be captured by Jaina, you must fight him to escape the Violet Citadel.
He would have been my choice too. He handed out those weekly raid/heroic quests back in Wrath.
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Old 11-04-2013, 02:29 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Note that there are actually other dalaran factions in Warcraft III, which, solely based on name, would seem to overlap in role with the Kirin Tor: the mages' guild and the sorcerers' league. This would make a lot of sense with your explanation. Start out as multiple guilds, all the important people flock to one, effectively and eventually officially becoming the government.
I thought about those too but was too tired to articulate my thoughts.
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Old 11-04-2013, 03:43 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Likely what happened, Kir. PERSONALLY, I would love if Antonidas was revealed to have played an important role in such transformation from Research and Ilumination Sect to Magus Senate.

I'm also interested to know what happened withthe Magocrat lords and how they evolved/were replaced by a selective Ruling Council.
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Old 11-04-2013, 04:27 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Aren't the ruling council magocrat lords? We sure as hell never see someone who is not a powerful mage on it.
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Old 11-04-2013, 08:39 PM
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The rulers are still magocrats per being in a magocracy, and are lord-like, but are not the Magocrat Lords of old (unless they were, which we do not know).
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