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Old 01-14-2013, 12:24 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Default Old Gods and Dragons (and a couple of doubts)

Hi people!

I have just read the "War of the Ancients Trilogy" and "Thrall - Twilight of the Aspects". I mostly liked them, but they arose several doubts in me.

The first doubt is related to WotAT. I understood that the Old Gods messed up with the timeways and Nozdormu tried to fix them by sending Krasus (and Rhonin and Brox). What I don't understand is... what did the Old Gods changed from the original timeline? I didn't see anything that seemed changed by them and that needed to be fixed by the timetravelers intervention. The trilogy only helped us to understand that the Old Gods were behind the creation of the Demon Soul and by destiny's will, they tried to help the creation of a portal to the Twisting Nether and the Maelstrom's spell that Illidan designed, at the same time (this latter actions were contradictory also, but... they are Olds Gods, so being chaotic-suicides is not out of character to them).

So... what did they change? What things were needed to be fixed?

The second doubt is related to TotA. In that book, Ysera the Awakened explained the other Aspects and dragons that there was a thing called "the Hour of Twilight". Alexstrasza and the others didn't know nothing about that (in the beginning of the book of course and even they didn't have a clear idea of the HoT by the end). Yet, in Ask CDev #3:

Alexstrasza states that the Aspects' "great purpose" has been fulfilled. However, the titans empowered the Aspects to watch over Azeroth and not to just stop Deathwing's second Cataclysm. Since Aman'Thul gifted Nozdormu with his powers over time, it's possible he predicted Deathwing's ultimate corruption, but that doesn't explain why the Aspects would be like "alright, job's done, vacation time" when there's still other threats to consider (N'Zoth and the Burning Legion, for example). Is this a retcon or are we missing something?

Aman'Thul, the wise leader of the titan Pantheon, had seen in a vision that the Old Gods would one day cause a catastrophe with the potential to wipe out all life on Azeroth. He and a few members of the Pantheon empowered the five Dragon Aspects with the ultimate goal of averting this single catastrophe, this Hour of Twilight, though they strove to defend Azeroth whenever a suitably apocalyptic threat emerged. Despite Aman'Thul's vast powers, however, he was not omniscient: neither he, nor any of the other titans or Aspects knew that Neltharion the Earth-Warder would become a pawn of the Old Gods and the herald of the apocalypse. However, following the War of the Ancients and Neltharion's betrayal, Nozdormu received another vision of the future that made it clear that their own brother would be the Hour of Twilight's harbinger. The titans bestowed upon all five Aspects enough power to avert the apocalypse, and by turning one of the Aspects to their side, the Old Gods believed this would make their ultimate plan foolproof.


So... WTF? Suddenly to stop the HoT is the ultimate purpose of the Aspects. Yet, they didn't know nothing about it (save MAYBE Ysera). How is that possible?

How is that not even the Aspects knew their most important duty?
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:30 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Blizzard doesn't pay a lot of attention to story details.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:36 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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I kinda just took 4.3 as a rushed way to end a lackluster story.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:50 PM
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I kinda just took 4.3 as a rushed way to end a lackluster story.
This, pretty much. 4.3 should have been the War of the Ancients raid, which got turned into the Well of Eternity instance, and who knows how the Deathwing encounter would have turned out in 4.4 if Cataclysm had been a successful expansion. But, since it wasn't, we got the obviously rushed Dragon Soul raid and Hour of Twilight dungeons.

Ultimately, I would say them not knowing about the HoT was an oversight in TotA. We should get a clearer idea of this with the Dawn of the Aspects e-book (Hopefully). As for the former, I always assumed that Nozdormu simply sent Rhonin and Krasus back in time as a preventative measure. What the Old Gods planned to do in their time-meddling is unknown because Nozdormu himself seemed to stop them.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:10 PM
Triceron Triceron is offline

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So much build up with Hyjal reviving the Ancients, I really hoped to see that War of the Ancients raid. Now that Cata's done, it's going to be difficult to revisit without being completely irrelevant to the story.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:31 PM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

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I still feel so bad for Kalec.

4.2 LEGENDARY QUESTLINE! Get a magical staff of power and watch as Kalec undergoes a powerful, once in a lifetime ritual to become the new Aspect of Magic! HUZZAH!

4.3 LOL KALEC YOU A REGULAR DRAGON AGAIN! WA WA WA WA WAAAAAAAA

Oh well at least he gets to have really angry sex with Emo Jaina.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:43 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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OMACRON FIX YOUR MEEEEEEEEEEEEESS!!!




JK. I guess that you could say that the titans/Nozdormu didn't name it.


I imagine that the whole "shooting Deathwind and making yourself obvious" that happens in WotA and the dungeon version didn't happen in the original but that's just me
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:45 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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One of the things I find surprising in TotA was that we were told that Kalecgos is less than 430 years old (since he has never witnessed the Embrace of the moons).

An about the "time change" the Old Gods supposedly did in WotA... It seemed to me, all over the trilogy, that the defenders of Azeroth couldn't have "won" the war without the time travelers. They seemed absolutely necessary.

Could it be that the Old Gods had erase certain characters from existence? Characters that played key but somehow minor roles in the war? Characters that were "replaced just in time" for the time travelers?

In the other hand... My own speculation about the Aspects' ignorance of the HoT is that the Old Gods not only "erased" certain individuals in the WotA, but also erased (somehow) the dragons memories. That would explain why only Ysera knew about the HoT: it was still in the "data" of the Emerald Dream. It was still in the back up.

Any thoughts?
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:48 PM
Blayze Blayze is offline

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Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
Any thoughts?
Honestly, I think you're giving Blizzard too much credit.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
One of the things I find surprising in TotA was that we were told that Kalecgos is less than 430 years old (since he has never witnessed the Embrace of the moons).

An about the "time change" the Old Gods supposedly did in WotA... It seemed to me, all over the trilogy, that the defenders of Azeroth couldn't have "won" the war without the time travelers. They seemed absolutely necessary.

Could it be that the Old Gods had erase certain characters from existence? Characters that played key but somehow minor roles in the war? Characters that were "replaced just in time" for the time travelers?

In the other hand... My own speculation about the Aspects' ignorance of the HoT is that the Old Gods not only "erased" certain individuals in the WotA, but also erased (somehow) the dragons memories. That would explain why only Ysera knew about the HoT: it was still in the "data" of the Emerald Dream. It was still in the back up.

Any thoughts?
Or we could just chop it up to Knack and his love of inserting his own characters into the story and making them a big fucking deal, as opposed to letting it be a normal story, or *le gasp* making his characters be witnesses to something greater then themselves.

Thank gods they're both dead.

-Don't mind me, I'm just overtly negative when it comes to Knack.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:02 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Honestly, I think you're giving Blizzard too much credit.
I know -.- Its sad. But I hope my speculation (or any other which fit) were made canon or explained.

I couldn't believe that Alexstrasza didn't know about the Hour of Twilight while reading. I mean... the same dudes who supposedly read and checked TotA answered the basics of Ask CDev #3. How could they have forgiven that?

Sometimes I wish there were more Ask CDev and more ways to speak withn the CDev and point them this little un-answered things, even suggesting some possible explanations instead of just: "Well, THAT part of TotA is non-canon since Ask CDev #3. Best wishes, dudes".
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
Hi people!

I have just read the "War of the Ancients Trilogy" and "Thrall - Twilight of the Aspects". I mostly liked them, but they arose several doubts in me.

The first doubt is related to WotAT. I understood that the Old Gods messed up with the timeways and Nozdormu tried to fix them by sending Krasus (and Rhonin and Brox). What I don't understand is... what did the Old Gods changed from the original timeline? I didn't see anything that seemed changed by them and that needed to be fixed by the timetravelers intervention. The trilogy only helped us to understand that the Old Gods were behind the creation of the Demon Soul and by destiny's will, they tried to help the creation of a portal to the Twisting Nether and the Maelstrom's spell that Illidan designed, at the same time (this latter actions were contradictory also, but... they are Olds Gods, so being chaotic-suicides is not out of character to them).

So... what did they change? What things were needed to be fixed?
The three Old Gods' plan was to manipulate events surrounding the Demon/Dragon Soul so that they could use it to teleport out of their prisons (and it almost works). There was no time travel involved with this plan, but apparently there was time alteration that changed historical events that did not happen in the "true timeline." This alteration created a rift in (I think) Winterspring, which let characters travel back in time to help deal with the slightly altered events.

I'm not sure why the Old Gods did not do their plan the "first time," but it has been a while since I read the trilogy.

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Old 01-14-2013, 02:25 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Now that I readed Revenant post, I realized Knaak does have some hidden brilliance when he writes. Old Gods plan to hijack Sargeras portal mirrors what DW did previously to Rhonin IIRC (though tbh I thought that their plan was to let him smash stuff, accidently destroy their prisons and and free them). Same with Azshara shield, which I mentioned some time ago. At first is "oh she made a shield with her mind, not impressive" but if you read the previous part, KRASUS had to make an effort to actually use magic next to the exploding well

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Old 01-14-2013, 02:43 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
The three Old Gods' plan was to manipulate events surrounding the Demon/Dragon Soul so that they could use it to teleport out of their prisons (and it almost works). There was no time travel involved with this plan, but apparently there was time alteration that changed historical events that did not happen in the "true timeline." This alteration created a rift in (I think) Winterspring, which let characters travel back in time to help deal with the slightly altered events.

I'm not sure why the Old Gods did not do their plan the "first time," but it has been a while since I read the trilogy.
I get that the Old Gods wanted to use the Demon Soul in order to free themselves. But it was never explained that their involvement in the creation of the Soul and then its use by the Burning Legion was something that couldn't have happened in the original timeline. In fact, the Time Travelers involvement only helped Krasus and the Aspects: originally, in DotD, they didn't know about the Old Gods' link with Deathwing's corruption and the creation of the Soul. Because of their intervention with the timeway, the Old Gods revealed to the Aspects that they were behind those particular events.

Quote:
It all begins to make sense, the mage realized as he climbed over the rocky landscape in search of his friends. Nozdormu…the rip in Time, the coming to the era of the night elves and the Burning Legion…the Well of
Eternity…and even the forging of the Demon Soul…

The Old Ones were creating the key that would open the gates of their prison…and if that happened, even Sargeras would find himself pleading for the peace of death.

Rip Time apart and they would unmake their prison. Perhaps they even plotted to reverse their own earlier defeat. It was difficult for him to guess exactly the extent of the Old Gods’ plans, for they were as much above him as he wasto a worm. Still, at least their initial goal was understandable.

I must warn Alexstrasza! Krasus instinctively thought. The Aspects were the most powerful creatures on all the mortal plane. If anyone had a chance against the Old Gods, it was them. He cursed the madness that had turned
Neltharion the Earth Warder into Deathwing the Destroyer. Combined, surely all five of the Aspects represented a force capable of defeating the elder beings. If not for Neltharion—

Krasus slipped, nearly falling from the ridge he had currently been navigating. How labyrinthine were the plots of the Old Gods! They were the ones who had turned the Earth Warder! They were the ones who had twisted Neltharion’s mind—and with more than one intention! The Old Gods had made of him a puppet who would aid their escape, but they had also divided—and thereby weakened—their one potential nemesis. Without Neltharion, the other four Aspects were not nearly as much a threat.

Worse, they also had Nozdormu occupied, no doubt another layer of their planning. Krasus paused, falling back against the mountainside. It was too overwhelming. The dark elders had spent too much time and effort. Set too
many pawns in place and covered their machinations too well. How could anyone—let alone, him—undo their malevolent designs?
Source: The Sundering

But that was the only visible change. There's nothing suggesting that the Old Gods weren't originally behind that. The only unsettling thing, as I said, is that if not for the Time Travelers, the kaldorei would have lost the war, Sargeras would have come and then the Old Gods would be free.

I know that the Old Gods didn't plan the time travrel. But its existence and its role as the only thing that "fixed" (somehow) the timeway lead me to think that the Old Gods changed things that were replaced by Rhonin, Krasus and Brox (and at the same time, that they couldn't fix).

Quote:
There was no other hope, then. Only the same one as ever and yet that seemed so slight, so insignificant now, that Nozdormu could barely take heart in it. It is all up to them… he thought as the raw forces tore at him. It is all up to Korialstrasz and his human…
Source: The Sundering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
Now that I readed Revenant post, I realized Knaak does have some hidden brilliance when he writes. Old Gods plan to hijack Sargeras portal mirrors what DW did previously to Rhonin IIRC (though tbh I thought that their plan was to let him smash stuff, accidently destroy their prisons and and free them). Same with Azshara shield, which I mentioned some time ago. At first is "oh she made a shield with her mind, not impressive" but if you read the previous part, KRASUS had to make an effort to actually use magic next to the exploding well
I think Azshara creating the magic shield is a counsequence of her magical ability. She was painted as a motherfucking powerful spellcaster, only that she didn't displayed it. Remember WotA instance? Nozdormu warning us from her? That it was a miracle she had survived?

I really think Azshara was (and is) more powerful than Krasus.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:49 PM
Revenant Revenant is offline

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Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
I get that the Old Gods wanted to use the Demon Soul in order to free themselves. But it was never explained that their involvement in the creation of the Soul and then its use by the Burning Legion was something that couldn't have happened in the original timeline. In fact, the Time Travelers involvement only helped Krasus and the Aspects: originally, in DotD, they didn't know about the Old Gods' link with Deathwing's corruption and the creation of the Soul. Because of their intervention with the timeway, the Old Gods revealed to the Aspects that they were behind those particular events.



Source: The Sundering

But that was the only visible change. There's nothing suggesting that the Old Gods weren't originally behind that. The only unsettling thing, as I said, is that if not for the Time Travelers, the kaldorei would have lost the war, Sargeras would have come and then the Old Gods would be free.

I know that the Old Gods didn't plan the time travrel. But its existence and its role as the only thing that "fixed" (somehow) the timeway lead me to think that the Old Gods changed things that were replaced by Rhonin, Krasus and Brox (and at the same time, that they couldn't fix).



Source: The Sundering.
Maybe, or maybe Yogg-Saron and the other two just facetendriled and remembered that they were supposed to use the Demon Soul that they made to escape, so they went back and time and did it.

You are also hinting at a bigger question: Why did the War of the Ancients trilogy need time travel at all?

The Old Gods subplot could have been worked in just like it was, as the saboteurs behind Deathwing, but no, Knaak needed his boys in there.
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Ten.

Years.

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Old 01-14-2013, 03:02 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
The first doubt is related to WotAT. I understood that the Old Gods messed up with the timeways and Nozdormu tried to fix them by sending Krasus (and Rhonin and Brox).
I don't think Nozdormu had anything to do with Krasus and his Amazing Friends being sent back to the WotA.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:03 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
Maybe, or maybe Yogg-Saron and the other two just facetendriled and remembered that they were supposed to use the Demon Soul that they made to escape, so they went back and time and did it.

You are also hinting at a bigger question: Why did the War of the Ancients trilogy need time travel at all?
It needed time travel because the Old Gods changed something or erase some people that were needed in the original history. If those events and those people existed normally, the kaldorei army could have "won" the war alone, like in the original timeline varely described in W3.

That's why Nozdormu's last hope was that the intervention of the travelers could help the timeline. They were he's last hope, after all.

PS: I really didn't like that a time travel was needed, and less that Knaak's characters were so fucking powerful (including Purple Jesus Malfurion). But I think that if the time-travel was better explained or developed in other way it could have been a great story (like if Krasus actually remembered everything and he could see the differences between the timelines; that would have been very interesting to see: "That person should be alive", "That city shouldn't exist" or "This men led the original army, not Ravencrest").

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I don't think Nozdormu had anything to do with Krasus and his Amazing Friends being sent back to the WotA.
Quote:
Where does it lie? the Aspect asked of himself not for the first time. Where is the cause? He had some general notion, but still not any specifics. When Nozdormu had sensed the unraveling of reality, he had come to this place to investigate, only to discover that he had barely arrived in time to prevent the destruction of everything. However, once caught up in that task, the Aspect realized that he could do no more on his own.

To that end, the behemoth had turned to one who whose power he dwarfed a thousandfold, but whose ingenuity and dedication had proven him as able as any of the great five. Nozdormu had contacted the red dragon, Korialstrasz, consort of the Aspect of Life, Alexstrasza, in a fragmented vision. He had managed to send the other leviathan—who wore the guise of the wizard, Krasus—to investigate one of the outward signs of the growing catastrophe and perhaps find a way to reverse the terrible situation.

But the anomaly that Korialstrasz and his human protege, Rhonin, had searched for in the eastern mountains had instead engulfed them. Sensing their sudden nearness, Nozdormu had cast them into the time period from which he suspected the cause. He knew that they survived, but, beyond that, what success they had managed appeared negligible.
Yes, he did. He sent them to the WotA in order to find the cause of the anomaly and reverse it.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:32 PM
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But what did the anomaly do in the Old Gods' favor?

I answered that.

Now, what does that have to do with time?

Good question.
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Years.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:35 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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I think Azshara creating the magic shield is a counsequence of her magical ability. She was painted as a motherfucking powerful spellcaster, only that she didn't displayed it. Remember WotA instance? Nozdormu warning us from her? That it was a miracle she had survived?

I really think Azshara was (and is) more powerful than Krasus.
I know, are you saying that i'm questioning the power of The Empress? Of all the people me? :p

I remember when certain flop-dwarf fan (yes, you Erthad) dared to question it. How disrespectful

-------------


Regarding the topic, IDK, WotA instance has no apparent signs of Rhonin and Krasus yet stuff aparently happened the same until the very last moment (where the players come in). Maybe while stuff like the creation of the DS happen in most timelines, the OG plan consisted in replacing the "proper" WotA with one from other timeline where the defenders lost and putting in in the main timeline


That being said, time travel stuff in WC
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:45 PM
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The old gods had their hands in the storm rage brothers as well.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:47 PM
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The old gods had their hands in the storm rage brothers as well.
And Metzen's mind. Thus Cataclysm was born.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:48 PM
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Metzens mind is filled with Asian tentacle rape.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
But what did the anomaly do in the Old Gods' favor?

I answered that.

Now, what does that have to do with time?

Good question.
Surely, the anomaly's result would have been the liberation of the Old Gods (something that was prevented by Travelers intervention). But we don't know what the anomaly (the change in the fabric of time) exactly was. It originated in the WotA era, but we don't know what it was.

What we know is that if not for the help of this "powerful" and "Jesuistic" characters from the future (and their different interventions in time-continuum), the Old Gods would have won.

Sadly, we will never know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
Regarding the topic, IDK, WotA instance has no apparent signs of Rhonin and Krasus yet stuff aparently happened the same until the very last moment (where the players come in). Maybe while stuff like the creation of the DS happen in most timelines, the OG plan consisted in replacing the "proper" WotA with one from other timeline where the defenders lost and putting in in the main timeline

That being said, time travel stuff in WC
Well, I checked the instance while reading the third book. The Travelers are mounting the dragons while the players fight the bosses. Oh... and the Malfurion and Illidan we see in the end of the instance are infact copies of the twins. The Demon Soul enabled Malfurion and Illidan to be in two places at the same time! Bilocation!

In the other hand, Genya, I think you more or less picked what I'm proposing: that the Old Gods changed something in the past in order to secure the failure of the kaldorei army and of the main characters (Malfurion, Illidan and Tyrande). But Nozdormu sent the Travelers and they changed (again) history, "saving it" from utter disaster.

And also, we could get a little more conspirative here. What if the apparent lack of Aspects' knowledge/information of the Old Gods was because the whispers from the earth messed up with more things in the past? What if the Old Gods did somehow erase/change the memory of the Aspects?
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:25 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
Now, what does that have to do with time?

Good question.
It was a vague excuse to make Rhonin a featured character of the WotA.
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  #25  
Old 01-14-2013, 04:42 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Regarding the topic, IDK, WotA instance has no apparent signs of Rhonin and Krasus yet stuff aparently happened the same until the very last moment (where the players come in). Maybe while stuff like the creation of the DS happen in most timelines, the OG plan consisted in replacing the "proper" WotA with one from other timeline where the defenders lost and putting in in the main timeline

That being said, time travel stuff in WC
Well, I checked the instance while reading the third book. The Travelers are mounting the dragons while the players fight the bosses. Oh... and the Malfurion and Illidan we see in the end of the instance are infact copies of the twins. The Demon Soul enabled Malfurion and Illidan to be in two places at the same time! Bilocation!

In the other hand, Genya, I think you more or less picked what I'm proposing: that the Old Gods changed something in the past in order to secure the failure of the kaldorei army and of the main characters (Malfurion, Illidan and Tyrande). But Nozdormu sent the Travelers and they changed (again) history, "saving it" from utter disaster.

And also, we could get a little more conspirative here. What if the apparent lack of Aspects' knowledge/information of the Old Gods was because the whispers from the earth messed up with more things in the past? What if the Old Gods did somehow erase/change the memory of the Aspects?

IIRC Rhonin was riding a relevant dragon ( I don't remember who though) and like you said, Furion and Illidan (and Tyrande again iirc) weren't supposed to be there. Besides that there's Mannoroth being the DS channeler instead Sargeras, the portal not being "Sargeras" sized yet, no Brox suicide, Azshara actually being out there and Illidan infiltrating the palace

yeah.

We actually know that last is actually Grandmacron fucking up like he did with the shadow priests answer (no aim to offend). But you could just say that the titans didn't give the catastrophe a name and the one to name it was Ysera. But since I didn't read TotA I don't know shit

Last edited by GenyaArikado; 01-14-2013 at 04:46 PM..
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