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  #21201  
Old 01-05-2013, 04:07 AM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
So does that mean the kingdom of Quel'thalas is no longer the the kingdom of Quel'thalas. Their king is dead and a regent uncrowned sits on the throne....
I didn't mean it so literally.

Even so, I'd say that at most Quel'thalas is a kingdom in name only. There is no monarchy. It's really more of a Republic of Quel'thalas.
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  #21202  
Old 01-05-2013, 05:00 AM
CoDimus the Staunch CoDimus the Staunch is offline

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Originally Posted by Korath View Post
The history of Poland say hi and prove you wrong : the fact that a kingdom has been conquered, destroyed, or annexed mean nothing as long as its people try to reclaim it.

As long as the Lordaeronian's culture live, so does the Kingdom of Lordaeron. And this culture lived in Stormwind, and especially in the will of Varian to reclaim Lordaeron to and h.then give it back to its living citizens.

A country stops existing only when its citizens do not any more try to make it exist (and even an occupation of a millenium isn't enogh to make it happen : see Vietnam history).
That simply isn't true. The Kingdom is dead. It's culture and history may still be there, but until the Lordaeroni humans manage to take it back and reestablish it, it is dead.

Btw, I am amused that a night elvish fan is arguing about Lordaeron.... I haven't seen many night elven fans arguing(or even caring, for that matter) about human lore.
Don't get me wrong, I know night elven fans who like the humans as well, but they aren't many. Only a handful. I like both races, though.

Last edited by CoDimus the Staunch; 01-05-2013 at 05:02 AM..
  #21203  
Old 01-05-2013, 05:37 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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If I were writing lore I'd make it so the Burning Legion, through the Argus Wake, brought about Stromgarde's fall a year or two before the scourging of Lordaeron to help pave for the Legion invasion.
Nah, that would make all of the old Alliance, especially Lordaeron, assholes.

I mean it would be like Stromguard is in a horrible crisis, people are suffering, shit is falling apart everywhere and the Alliance is looking on and saying "Haha look at those guys, so funny."

The idea itself could work, but I feel little need to involve the Argus Wake much, the former Alteraci who constitute the Syndicate are enough to be the insidious element that destabilizes Stromguard from within.
It is just the timing that I dislike, make it happen during the Scourging of Lordaeron, that way you have several factors working against Stromguard. First some of their men may have been forced to go out and fight the Scourge so it does not reach Arathi, the friendly nations around them were at first too busy to help then they were dead, through out all of this the Syndicate is weakening them from the inside... by the time the ogres and trolls came the people of Stromguard were just to weak to stop them.

Last edited by C9H20; 01-05-2013 at 05:40 AM..
  #21204  
Old 01-05-2013, 05:37 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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Originally Posted by Call of duty 1 View Post
Btw, I am amused that a night elvish fan is arguing about Lordaeron.... I haven't seen many night elven fans arguing(or even caring, for that matter) about human lore.
Don't get me wrong, I know night elven fans who like the humans as well, but they aren't many. Only a handful. I like both races, though.
Me, a Night Elves' fan ? No, I'm an Alliance's fan (in fact, it was the draeneï who brought me to World of Warcraft).

But to be perfectly honest, at this point, I would prefer that the Devs state and show ingame that the Alliance doesn't care anymore about Lordaeron, and instead try to retake Gilneas, Stromgarde and the Thoradin Wall in the North. And that Stormwind fix its horde (it's a pun ) of problems in the South.

In an ideal world, the Alliance should try to destroy the Horde. Since it won't happening (for obvious reasons), then the future truce should hold some improvements for the Alliance :

-the Forsaken retreat from Greymane Wall, and the Alliance, under Argent Crusade scrutiny if the Horde doesn't trust them, rebuild the Wall, stronger than ever. Bam, Gilneas is an Alliance's only leveling zone.

-The Horde's forces leave Arathi Highlands and the Alliance retake the First City of the Man (seriously, give us the Stromgardians, they were the most badasses of the badasses in Humanity's history !) and Thoradin Wall, the latter being reinforced à la Greymane Wall, so no Forsaken can pass through it. The ancient horde's quest point are given to the Bloodfang Pack, who had been driven out of Shadowfang Keep by the Forsaken.

The Forsaken keep Lordaeron (the Kingdom), the skirmishes fade, and everybody is happy. Or at least, not too angry.
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  #21205  
Old 01-05-2013, 06:23 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by Call of duty 1 View Post
I am amused that a night elvish fan is arguing about Lordaeron.... I haven't seen many night elven fans arguing(or even caring, for that matter) about human lore.
Huh?! You said stupid things in the past, but this takes the cake.

Last edited by SmokeBlader; 01-05-2013 at 06:26 AM..
  #21206  
Old 01-05-2013, 06:28 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Huh?! You said stupid things in the past, but this takes the cake.
Dat hive mind mentality
  #21207  
Old 01-05-2013, 09:20 AM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon View Post
I didn't mean it so literally.

Even so, I'd say that at most Quel'thalas is a kingdom in name only. There is no monarchy. It's really more of a Republic of Quel'thalas.
You're all right. The state of the Kingdom of Lordaeron is dead. The nation, in the other hand, is a more conflicting topic, since we haven't see a Lordaeronian culture in exile and yet, the ideal of Lordaeron seems more or less strong in the Alliance.

I believe that "Lordaeron" has become a symbol or ideal for the Alliance, a "lost paradise" for which the Alliance longs. But its people is scattered, with non proper leader or government, with some of them having created a new city-Estate in a foreign land and the others submitting their swords and lifes to a foreign crown.

I know people wants to compare Lordaeron's situation with Stomrwind's after the First War. But that wasn't the same. Thousands of Stormwindians arrived to alive to Hillsbrad, with a living member of the House of Wrynn and the living knight champion of Stormwind. Also, have you read Tides of Darkness/Rise of the Lich King? The first thing that Terenas did when Varian arrived was to recognized him as a king and give him his support to retake the conquered lands.

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“I find it strange,” Perenolde’s soft purr cut through the conversation again, “that a stranger to our shores should be so concerned for our survival.” He glanced at Lothar with what looked suspiciously like a smirk and Khadgar resisted the urge to set the oily king’s beard alight. “Forgive me for treading upon fresh wounds, sir, but your own kingdom is gone, your king dead, your prince little more than a boy, your lands overrun. Is this not so?” Lothar nodded, grinding his teeth—presumably to keep from snapping the arrogant king’s head off. “You have brought word of this threat to us, for which we are grateful. Yet you speak repeatedly of what we must do, how we must unite.” He made a great show of looking around the chamber. Varian was not there—Terenas had taken him in, treating the still shaken prince as a member of his own household, and both he and Lothar had agreed that the boy should not have to deal with additional scrutiny right now. “I do not see anyone else from your kingdom here, and you have said yourself that the prince is but a boy and the lands a conquered territory. If we were to consider your suggestion and unite, what could you possibly add to the assembly? Beyond your own martial prowess, of course.”

Lothar opened his mouth to respond, fury evident in every feature, but he was cut off again. By King Terenas, surprisingly enough.

“I will not have my guest insulted so,” Lordaeron’s ruler announced, the steel plain in his voice. “He has brought us this news at great personal peril and has shown nothing but honor and compassion despite his own personal grief!” Perenolde nodded and half-bowed a silent if mocking apology. “Further, you are wrong to think him alone or invaluable,” Terenas continued. “Prince Varian Wrynn is now my honored guest, and will be so until such time as he chooses to depart. I have pledged myself to aiding him in regaining his kingdom.” Several of the other monarchs murmured at that, and Khadgar knew what they were thinking. Terenas had just renounced any claims he might make to Stormwind and warned the other kings that Varian had his support, all in a single statement. It was a clever move, and his respect for Lordaeron’s king rose still higher. “Sir Lothar has brought with him others from his kingdom,” Terenas continued, “including some soldiers. While their numbers are not significant when compared to the threat we face, their experience in dealing with the orcs firsthand could be invaluable. Many more still wander what was Stormwind, confused and unguided. These may rally upon hearing their Champion’s call, giving us additional numbers. Lothar himself is a seasoned commander and tactician, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for his personal abilities.” He paused, and glanced at Lothar in what looked curiously like a question. Khadgar was intrigued to see his companion nod. The Champion and the king had met several times while waiting for the other monarchs to arrive and Khadgar had not been privy to all their discussions, but now he wondered what exactly he had missed.
However, in the case of Lordaeron, we haven't see a government in the exile. And while I won't deny that retaking Lordaeron is surely a think that Varian wants to do, we haven't see Lordaeronians pressing him to do it. They seemed to have blended themselves within Stormwind just as Lordaeron become an ideal to fight for (in the future).
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  #21208  
Old 01-05-2013, 09:58 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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He could visit now he'd just die every few steps

Getting a hunter up to level 16 and using Eagle Eye will let you see far distances, Grackle. And with the macro "/cast !Eagle Eye" (the ! is important) you can chain cast the ability to go really far.
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Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
Also, have you read Tides of Darkness/Rise of the Lich King? The first thing that Terenas did when Varian arrived was to recognized him as a king and give him his support to retake the conquered lands.
Good thing Terenas wasn't an ass like Varian. He could've just said, "Stormwind's dead. I'm your high king now. Put on this white armor and KNEEL!"

And in WoW, the Orc starting zone would be Stormwind.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 01-05-2013 at 10:09 AM..
  #21209  
Old 01-05-2013, 10:38 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Nah, that would make all of the old Alliance, especially Lordaeron, assholes.
In my mind, the other nations would think that Stromgarde is fine and dandy then all of a sudden, boom the kings dead. Stromgarde's lost control of it's capital city.

Another nation could have sent troops to help Stromgarde out, but with the Scourging they would have withdrawn.

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I mean it would be like Stromguard is in a horrible crisis, people are suffering, shit is falling apart everywhere and the Alliance is looking on and saying "Haha look at those guys, so funny."
Well, like I said it wouldn't be a long event, it would be short and sudden. But even then, I doubt Lordaeron, and probably the other nations would really want to help Stromgarde. Stromgarde had a falling out with Lordaeron after the 2nd War, and I never got the impression that Stromgarde was on good terms with anyone else save maybe Kul Tiras and Dalaran.

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The idea itself could work, but I feel little need to involve the Argus Wake much, the former Alteraci who constitute the Syndicate are enough to be the insidious element that destabilizes Stromguard from within.
I think involving the Argus Wake makes the plot better. They really haven't done anything, and bringing down a kingdom gives them real cred. Ultimately though, I want the downfall of Stromgarde to not be be at the hands of lolbandits and lolgres, but by a real enemy like the Burning Legion.

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It is just the timing that I dislike, make it happen during the Scourging of Lordaeron, that way you have several factors working against Stromguard. First some of their men may have been forced to go out and fight the Scourge so it does not reach Arathi, the friendly nations around them were at first too busy to help then they were dead, through out all of this the Syndicate is weakening them from the inside... by the time the ogres and trolls came the people of Stromguard were just to weak to stop them.
A little before or during doesn't change much, so that's fine.
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  #21210  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:02 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I would like lore to say that the Boulderfist ogres were veterans of the Second War, who fought in the northern Khaz Modan-Arathi front. That way, the Orc Level 7 destruction of Stromgarde (featuring the ability to build ogres for the first time) would be similar to what went down in lore. Just in a different time period. And without peons.

EDIT: And I'd be fine with the Argus Wake pulling the strings. After assassinating Thoras, someone could've left a squadron of transports where the ogres could reach them... allowing the Boulderfists to launch a completely unexpected attack by sea, from the south or southwest coast.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 01-05-2013 at 11:06 AM..
  #21211  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:31 AM
Kyalin Raintree Kyalin Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Call of duty 1 View Post
That simply isn't true. The Kingdom is dead. It's culture and history may still be there, but until the Lordaeroni humans manage to take it back and reestablish it, it is dead.

Btw, I am amused that a night elvish fan is arguing about Lordaeron.... I haven't seen many night elven fans arguing(or even caring, for that matter) about human lore.
Don't get me wrong, I know night elven fans who like the humans as well, but they aren't many. Only a handful. I like both races, though.
I haven't kept up on the latest arguments regarding Lordaeron, so I apologize, but I do see the Forsaken right now as just another nation, who have a share of the claim too given that many of them are former Lordaeronians.

However, I do consider them as being in need of regime change. Sylvannas reneged on her agreement with Garithos, turning on the Alliance and therefore striking first. Yes, you can say that Garithos deserved it and you'd be right, but not for that particular action. Sylvannas had no knowledge of what Garithos did to the Blood Elves and didn't kill him for that reason. She did it for greed.

This leaves out of course the development of weapons of mass destruction, the use of them, and the use of necromancy - which I still say should be an even greater crime among the forsaken given that they universally describe undeath as a great torment. The fact that they don't though only shows how morally bankrupt the leadership and its followership is, and how sorely it needs to be replaced.
  #21212  
Old 01-05-2013, 03:07 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Since no one posted more in the Warcraft fan art thread....

This is adorable!
  #21213  
Old 01-05-2013, 08:21 PM
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Was leveling my hunter and found this:

http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Rod_of_Compulsion

This is new to me. Terenas had torture chambers? He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who'd condone that.
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
  #21214  
Old 01-05-2013, 08:23 PM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

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Originally Posted by Reignac View Post
Was leveling my hunter and found this:

http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Rod_of_Compulsion

This is new to me. Terenas had torture chambers? He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who'd condone that.
What do we really know about Terenas though? As a ruler? We know he's a great narrator, sure, but does that mean he wouldn't turn to torture?
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:23 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by Reignac View Post
http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Rod_of_Compulsion
This is new to me. Terenas had torture chambers? He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who'd condone that.
Maybe the chamber was there before Terenas. Maybe the past kings were more cruel than him.
  #21216  
Old 01-05-2013, 08:25 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Clearly those were lawful good torture chambers.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:33 PM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Just because Terenas wouldn't like torture doesn't mean his nobles/guards/etc. wouldn't use it.

A King's court contains many people, after all.
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So many deluded people think their rotting Waifuchief cares for them and their faction, when every scrap of internalized narrative has made it clear for years that to Sylvanas, the entirety of the Horde - including her own people - is nothing more than a shitton of bodies to stack between herself and her final death.

And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
  #21218  
Old 01-05-2013, 08:35 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Just because he was in the court of the king doesn't make him directly Terenas's responsibility. Clearly he was employed by one of those obstructionist nobles of Lordaeron!
  #21219  
Old 01-05-2013, 08:38 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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...What in the world would lend credence to the opinion that Terenas wouldn't condone torture?

People are far to unwilling to see subtle nuances in people. The world really isn't split into black and white. For all we know, for all his goody goodness, Uther the Lightbringer could only get-off to hardcore BDSM anal murloc porn.

I can't think of a reason for why Terenas would be against the concept of torture.
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Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
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  #21220  
Old 01-05-2013, 08:40 PM
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I guess RotLK just painted Terenas in a really good light, so the idea of him having a torture chamber is just weird to me. I suppose it does make sense to have one though.
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
  #21221  
Old 01-05-2013, 08:59 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Reignac View Post
I guess RotLK just painted Terenas in a really good light, so the idea of him having a torture chamber is just weird to me. I suppose it does make sense to have one though.
Doesn't mean that he's a perfect character, with no moral, logical or otherwise irredeemable flaws.

Nobody's perfect, after all. We are far too quick to assume things.
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Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
  #21222  
Old 01-05-2013, 09:01 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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Even Turalyon used the Light itself to torture someone, folks. He only stopped because the subject was a death knight and he didn't want their prisoner to spontaneously explode before they got anything out of him.

So they had Khadgar continue torturing him instead.

Azeroth isn't modern earth. When people are regularly turning in severed heads to the authorities as proof of their deeds it's not that hard to imagine the powers that be relying upon torture to extract information from captured enemies, especially in times of war.
  #21223  
Old 01-05-2013, 09:03 PM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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Originally Posted by Reignac View Post
I guess RotLK just painted Terenas in a really good light, so the idea of him having a torture chamber is just weird to me. I suppose it does make sense to have one though.
Keep in mind, that book is mostly told from Arthas' viewpoint, so you're going to have a son's view of his father.

Personally I think every King has one, and while they may not condone it officially I doubt they have much problem with the information that might come from it.
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  #21224  
Old 01-05-2013, 09:20 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
Doesn't mean that he's a perfect character, with no moral, logical or otherwise irredeemable flaws.

Nobody's perfect, after all. We are far too quick to assume things.
So the opposite of being a morally righteous man is to be a torturing asshole? This is the guy who didn't want to kill orcs. Monstrous invaders from another planet that arguably wanted every human dead.

Seriously what's with you people and extremes?
  #21225  
Old 01-05-2013, 09:22 PM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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So the opposite of being a morally righteous man is to be a torturing asshole? This is the guy who didn't want to kill orcs. Monstrous invaders from another planet that arguably wanted every human dead.

Seriously what's with you people and extremes?
You are reading far too much into things.
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