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#7651
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![]() Arch-Druid Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,230
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![]() And you are making your own headcanon plotholes.
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I won't take the words of angry Horde soldiers and tauren extremists over his or Baine's words. Quote:
Also, pets usually have names.
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#7652
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![]() Sentinel Queen Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 946
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![]() No you are making up excuses for bad writing.
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We see those military forces ingame actively attacking tauren. You are going into outright delusion. Quote:
They aren't extremists outside of your warped Alliance fanboy mind. When an invading army is attacking your lands, intentionally targeting civilians and trying to break into your lands, you fight back. That isn't extremism, you are simply an Alliance fanboy who refuses to see any view but your own. Twinbraid actively sends the Alliance players to kill Horde civilians because they are an easy target and Hawthorne himself says the motive is to conquer the barrens for the Alliance. But you're just going to play the same stupid game Fojar did that "Everything a Horde NPC says is a lie lie lie because they aren't Alliance." Stated he's helping the apothecaries. Then why is he working by himself without orders.
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Last edited by JorgeAxe; 01-30-2019 at 05:02 PM.. |
#7653
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![]() Elune Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Slaughtered Lamb
Posts: 22,046
BattleTag: Grimtale67#1407
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![]() Cataclysm was a mistake.
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#7654
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![]() Sentinel Queen Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 946
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![]() To give it some credit, the expansions that followed were even worse.
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#7655
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![]() Arch-Druid Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,230
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Taurajo had a significant civilian population. I wanted to ensure that they could escape the fighting, and many did, finding refuge in the north. There are some, even in Alliance High Command, who argued that I let an opportunity slip away. That I should've taken hostages. But I don't see the value in those sort of terror-tactics. Hear me out, <name>: I want this war to end someday. It won't ever stop if we butcher or imprison civilians. I just pray that there are those on the other side who see things as I do. Obviously, not every civilian escaped. It was a military attack, after all. But he did care to minimize losses, and all those civilians that lived survived because he ordered his troops to leave an opening for their escape. This is war, I won't pretend it's not ugly, and that's exactly why small acts like Hawthorne's mercy mean a lot. The Horde killed Hawthorne and the only thing that it result was in worse people suceeding him. Gann bombed Bael Modan and that only made Twinbraid decide to push more violently against the tauren. THe reason the Alliance pushed into the Barren was because the Horde had invaded night elf lands and the Alliance decided to make a supply line to reinforce its allies in the north. It's that cycle that people like Hawthorne and Baine are trying to stop. The other option is to go for genocide, and thankfully Baine knows it will only lead to his own people's doom. It's the same thing Saurfang tried to do on Darkshore, before Sylvanas pulled her "burn the tree" card. Quote:
But only one side was trying to preserve the others' civilians. Quote:
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That Horde are mad about the attack is understandable. That they consider Hawthorne a "Butcher", is understandable. But their anger does not change the facts. And here's another fact: killing Hawthorne allowed worse people to get in charge. Quote:
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- Sorry for any typos; english's not my primary language. - A better signature coming soon(ish). Last edited by Deicide; 01-30-2019 at 06:02 PM.. |
#7656
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![]() Sentinel Queen Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 946
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Yet he then hypocritically exiled the tauren defending Mulgore from invasion including people like Jorn Skyseer who helped the tauren reclaim Thunderbluff from the Grimtotem. Quote:
Twinbraid killed Gann's family first and his son was a military scout+a participant in warcrimes against the tauren. All the people in Bael'dun Fortress were these military targets and scumbags. Bael'dun Soldier Bael'dun Rifleman Bael'Dun Officer But its only ok when the Alliance attacks military targets in your fanboy mind. ![]() Alliance siege vehicles literally trying to break into Mulgore. You are officially delusional, we see Alliance soldiers do this stuff in the game. He's making a recipe.
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Last edited by JorgeAxe; 01-30-2019 at 06:10 PM.. |
#7657
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![]() Arch-Druid Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,230
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Yet he then hypocritically exiled the tauren defending Mulgore from invasion including people like Jorn Skyseer who helped the tauren reclaim Thunderbluff from the Grimtotem. Quote:
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But the big Cataclysm conflict in the Barrens was not an escalation of Bael Modan's storyline. It was the Alliance trying to provide a supply line to the night elves due to Horde attacks. Not that Hawthorne tried to be as merciful as possible. Quote:
There's no quest or text that I know of, in both factions, about the Alliance wishing to invade Mulgore. The Alliance was trying to conquer the Barrens, and its objective was to secure a road to Ashenvale through Stonetalon. That the tauren were able to build the gate and wall mid-war shows there was no immediate push for Mulgore. Quote:
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#7658
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![]() Eternal Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,991
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As for Teldrassil, this once again brings me back to my previous "strength of position" point. Attempting a coup d'etat after Teldrassil, where Sylvanas must have had an incredibly strong position as the ultimate victor and conqueror (she managed to achieve something even Garrosh couldn't have with all his attempts to conquer Kalimdor), and where any sort of descalation of the conflict would have been heavily difficult if not impossible, would simply have been unfeasible. Even Saurfang admitted to hoping that Anduin would stop Sylvanas at Lordaeron, understanding that internally, her position was at the moment way too strong to be challenged. |
#7659
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![]() Banished Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 14,056
BattleTag: Hulk#2393
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![]() I say we have a tauren holocaust.
Magatha was right. |
#7660
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![]() Elune Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 12,252
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As I've said it is clearly a system that leaves much to be desired but that is just how it is and canon bears it out, otherwise why would Garrosh need Mal'korok to insulate him from challenges if he can just say no? At the very least each time he would say no he loses legitimacy, which I am guessing is your angle. But I still think the "have to accept" argument is stronger so we can agree to disagree... unless I've changed your mind? Not that this is likely online no matter the discussion ![]() Quote:
Teldrassil was an atrocity in the eyes of even most Horde, not to mention something which the Horde knew would galvanize the Alliance to take retribution on their families. After Teldrassil she had no hostages, not much secured value out of occupied nelf lands and an Alliance hellbent on taking her and the Horde out, so yeah not seeing her unshakable position at all. I think it would have even made for a good story even. Sylvanas starts the war, it is awful, everyone is gritting their teeth about how here starts Garrosh 2.0 when bam, Baine, Saurfang and other execute their coup and remove her from power. Suddenly both sides have plenty of motivation to fight, the Horde no longer have a monster in charge but are still stuck in this war since Alliance is too incensed to accept her removal as satisfaction, not even close. Let the brawl begin, Lok'tar Ogar! Alas every step we take seems to bring us closer to SoO 2.0. Maybe it is as you say a fakeout, Illidan had that prophecy thing going but he blew it off... but also kind of didn't given that his actions were instrumental in shutting down the Legion. I think the raid is more likely than you may expect Marth simply because the raid monster craves purples and there are only so many named characters to feed to it. 2nd most likely outcome is Sylvanas dies/gets deposed but the war goes on. The rest I don't see as likely at all. |
#7661
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![]() Trade Baroness - Admin Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,985
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![]() Cairne wielded mak'gora against Garrosh like a weapon because Garrosh was an orc. Cairne knew that he would not only be able to goad Garrosh into participating in a mak'gora to the death, despite Thrall outlawing them, but also that Garrosh's loyal followers would respect the outcome, no matter what the result may be.
Not only is Sylvanas far less likely to be goaded into participating in a mak'gora but also far, far less likely to honour its tradition. Also, as beloved as Cairne was, there is no refuting that the fallback of his ill-fated mak'gora plunged the Thunderbluff tauren into one of their worst crisis. It arguably did far more damage than anything Baine has done to date. Mostly unrelated: Diplomatic attempts failing does not necessarily mean that one of the parties involved was unwilling to participate in the attempt. It could be the reason for the failure, but more often than not, it simply means that the parties were unable to reach an accord. Also, building a fortress in a strategically convenient position during a cold war is not "harassment". It simply means that you are preparing for the worst. There is no denying that the dwarves were in the wrong for disrespecting the tauren culture, digging in sacred cites, and chasing the natives away or even killing them. However, the situation is far less clear cut than some in this thread would have us believe.
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#7662
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![]() Eternal Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,991
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A) His position was incredibly shaken after the defeat at Stormwind. B) He couldn't have relied on the support of the Shadow Council in "making the thing go away" with Gul'dan in coma and the Council in disarray. This also actually goes hand in hand with the entire Mal'korok thing. See, Mal'korok wasn't there for the entirety of Garrosh' rule, he appeared only as the dissent against him started growing and his position had become less firm due to a number of failed invasions (Gilneas, Ashenvale, and so on). Suffice to say, I do not see how your claim that this is fully completely entrenched in canon as particularly solid, the resources are scarce, and what is there is not that much supportive of it. But as you say, we can agree to disagree. Quote:
We actually don't know that, as we sadly very little information on how mere grunts, soldiers, farmers, and so on see the war. Which in my personal opinion the greatest problem of this conflict at the moment, as we are missing the most important point of reference that make such conflicts work. And since you've already brought up "warrior cultures" to this discussion with your previous remark, I need to point out that warrior cultures usually did not have that large problems putting settlements or entire cities that had repeatedly resisted them to the sword. Quote:
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Agreed. This is actually something I remember talking about at one point. |
#7663
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![]() Trade Baroness - Admin Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,985
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The Gordunni may not be members of the Horde or orcs, but it is not unlikely that the traditions are almost identical.
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#7664
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![]() Arch-Druid Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,230
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![]() Mak'gora is a test of power and popularity. You can only refuse without being seen as a coward if there's enough people backing you up. That's why the challenge is issued after some major show of failure or incompetence of the leader, so that he won't refuse without further weakening his position.
However, I could totally see Sylvanas refusing the challenge anyway. She's smart, she know she can win the public again throught other means. ------------------------- Taliesin/Evitel interview with Jeremy Feasel is out (I haven't watched it yet):
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#7665
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![]() Banished Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 14,056
BattleTag: Hulk#2393
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![]() Tauren holocaust when.
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#7666
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![]() Sentinel Queen Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 946
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![]() And Hawthorne firebombed the camp as the game reveals.
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He made token attempts, but if he really wanted to be merciful, he wouldn't have attacked only when all the soldiers were out on a hunt or firebombed the camp. Incorrect, the Ballistas and Soldiers are attacking the gate. They are only stopped due to the efforts of the brave tauren Baine later exiled and the orcs sent to help the tauren. Quote:
And once again, all the people Baine exiled were good and noble tauren. Pineforest was a disciple of Naralex, Skyseer helped Baine take back Thunderbluff from the Grimtotem, Kirge Sternhorn originally came from Thunderhorn and had to find his baby in the ruins of Taurajo, ETC. All heroic and good people Baine punished for being helping the tauren when Baine was sitting on his ass. Quote:
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Incorrect, they killed so many that the Stonespire tribe is considered lost and their journal shows the Dwarves were motivated by bigotry, viewing the tauren as inferior. They were nothing more then worthless war-criminals. And I never see you trying to make excuses for Horde aggression.
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Last edited by JorgeAxe; 01-31-2019 at 04:33 PM.. |
#7667
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![]() Trade Baroness - Admin Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,985
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However, we do not know how the diplomatic attempts went, only that they failed. We also do not know who struck the first blow, only that the dwarven archaeology team felt threatened enough to request aid from Ironforge's army. It is possible that the archaeologists turned violent first, it is also possible that it was the Stonepire warbraves. We simply don't know. Either way, as I've already stated, the dwarves carry the Lion's share of the blame. Do the tauren share some of it? Perhaps, perhaps not. Quote:
I also believe that, if the Stonespire struck first, they were justified for trying to defend their sacred land from the dwarves. Edit: Let me just ask you something. Do you or do you not support the Horde, including the tauren, encroaching on quillboar lands? A race that is not only also native to Kalimdor but also had settlements dotting it's landscape for hundreds of years, unlike the nomadic tauren. Something you ought to consider when criticizing Baine for attempting diplomacy.
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#7668
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![]() Elune Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 12,252
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![]() Hmm that "I accept" from Garrosh does throw me in doubt. Perhaps those reforms Nazja mentions changed things, if Mak'gora is now outlawed then obv. accepting it is not imperative. Incidentally I do not see the Doomhammer/Blackhand dynamic as a detriment but rather supportive. as I see it Orgrim at first could not challenge Blackhand for a number of reasons other than "because now he can say no." He was younger, more inexperienced and way more junior in position than he will later be after winning all those WC1 battles for the Horde, he probably did not have the balls for it at first. Again there is that issue of respect, even if he is ambitious enough and can physically best Blackhand being such an upstart he would receive endless challenges in return and he can't beat everyone forever (especially if there is no "let me recover from the last battle" allowance). He needed to wait for his own prestige to grow and Blackhands to diminish before he could challenge him without being endlessly challenged himself after the fact.
Also my thinking has the hilarious bonus of seeing Sylvanas in a loincloth having to face off against one of the giant lugs that make up the rest of the Horde upper crust. ![]() |
#7669
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![]() Eternal Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,991
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![]() I am not sure how does "a challenge he could not refuse because he was still reeling from the failed attack against Stormwind City" directly translate to "a challenge he can't refuse under any circumstances", but that might be just me.
But for the sake of clarity, at the time of the mak'hora, Orgrim had served as Blackhand's second in comman for over eleven years, and for over nine by the time of Durotan's death, so he was not inexperienced by far or unknown by far. |
#7670
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![]() Elune Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 12,252
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#7671
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![]() Eternal Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,991
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In any case, for the sake of more clarity, Stormwind fell in the year 3, Durotan was killed in the year 1, the war started in the year 0. Moreover, Orgrim was Blackhand's second since the wars against the ogres, dated a decade before the opening of the Dark Portal, and way throught the entire conflict with the Draenei. As I said, he was not inexperienced nor unknown by far. |
#7672
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![]() Banished Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 14,056
BattleTag: Hulk#2393
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![]() i always thought that jinbe would make an excellent wow orcish character.
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#7673
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![]() Sentinel Queen Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 946
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Again, I never see you defending the Forsaken killing Hillsbrad farmers or the orcs in Ashenvale. Quote:
The quillboar tribes rarely engage in diplomacy and when people try to engage them in diplomacy, most tribes usually reject it. Baine didn't attempt diplomacy, he said their enemies were in the right for massacring his own people and that his people were in the wrong for defending themselves against those currently attacking them.
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#7674
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![]() Trade Baroness - Admin Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,985
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![]() Yes, after war was declared. Obviously I was speaking about the tenuous peace before Cataclysm.
![]() This was basically its purpose. Provide an already established, well fortified garrison from which to launch attacks on the Horde if the relationship between the Alliance and Horde ever worsened. Which, again, is not harassment. Quote:
The fact that we are dealing with various rogue elements out here leads me to believe we will need support from the King's Army. Rogue elements referring to the tauren, among others. Quote:
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![]() Edit: Let's go back to the topic that started this all: Baine exiling tauren. While mines, and any other infrastructure than can or is being to fuel your enemy's war effort is a valid target, Twinbraids' actions against the goblins were extreme. The reason being that he is revenge driven and, unable to take vengeance against the goblin infiltrator who actually cause his son's death, he seeks it from the goblin miners and their entertainment. This (Twinbraids) is exactly the kind of person Baine does not want Jorn Skyseer to turn into. And honestly, for defying a direct order from their leader, simply being expelled from the capital is a very mild punishment. It's not like he exiled them from all tauren communities and made them outlaws. Oh, and before I forget, in any case anyone thinks I am making light of Twinbraids' actions against the Stonespire due to not calling it a genocide. Quote:
This is the issue with foregone conclusions and sensationalism.
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#7675
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![]() Guru of Gilneas Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,290
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![]() Seems like you still are making light of it. /shrug
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Tags |
alliance whining, azeroth literally dying, battle for azeroth, for the whored, gilgoblins, mop 2.0 sucks, mop sucks, more like cata 2.0 sucks, quilboar bias, world of warcraft |
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