And you are making your own headcanon plotholes.

The man left a flank open so civilians could escape, denied requests to make civilian hostages and was arresting his own soldiers that defied orders and went to sack Taurajo.

I won't take the words of angry Horde soldiers and tauren extremists over his or Baine's words.

"Specifically making a recipe"? Where is that specified?
Also, pets usually have names.

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No you are making up excuses for bad writing.


Yet he firebombed the village, killed civilians who tried to flee flee like Yonada, and even in his own words attacked only when the military personel were out on a hunt.

We see those military forces ingame actively attacking tauren. You are going into outright delusion.

Those weren't Horde soldiers, they were tauren authority figures and survivors of Taurajo, as well as the ghost of a Taurajo victim.

They aren't extremists outside of your warped Alliance fanboy mind. When an invading army is attacking your lands, intentionally targeting civilians and trying to break into your lands, you fight back. That isn't extremism, you are simply an Alliance fanboy who refuses to see any view but your own.

Twinbraid actively sends the Alliance players to kill Horde civilians because they are an easy target and Hawthorne himself says the motive is to conquer the barrens for the Alliance.

But you're just going to play the same stupid game Fojar did that "Everything a Horde NPC says is a lie lie lie because they aren't Alliance."


Stated he's helping the apothecaries.

Then why is he working by himself without orders.

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Cataclysm was a mistake.

To give it some credit, the expansions that followed were even worse.

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Hawthorne's own words:
Taurajo had a significant civilian population. I wanted to ensure that they could escape the fighting, and many did, finding refuge in the north.

There are some, even in Alliance High Command, who argued that I let an opportunity slip away. That I should've taken hostages. But I don't see the value in those sort of terror-tactics.

Hear me out, <name>: I want this war to end someday. It won't ever stop if we butcher or imprison civilians.

I just pray that there are those on the other side who see things as I do.

Obviously, not every civilian escaped. It was a military attack, after all. But he did care to minimize losses, and all those civilians that lived survived because he ordered his troops to leave an opening for their escape.

This is war, I won't pretend it's not ugly, and that's exactly why small acts like Hawthorne's mercy mean a lot.

The Horde killed Hawthorne and the only thing that it result was in worse people suceeding him. Gann bombed Bael Modan and that only made Twinbraid decide to push more violently against the tauren.

THe reason the Alliance pushed into the Barren was because the Horde had invaded night elf lands and the Alliance decided to make a supply line to reinforce its allies in the north.

It's that cycle that people like Hawthorne and Baine are trying to stop. The other option is to go for genocide, and thankfully Baine knows it will only lead to his own people's doom.

It's the same thing Saurfang tried to do on Darkshore, before Sylvanas pulled her "burn the tree" card.

It's war. And a war the Horde started by invading night elf lands.

But only one side was trying to preserve the others' civilians.

After Gann kills his son by bombing Bael Modan.

To make a supply line to help the night elves defend from the Horde.

It's not a lie, it's their biased view point. But the established facts are: Taurajo was being used as a staging point for attacks (confirmed by Baine, who I might add may have been against the use of the town for it the first place); Alliance attacked it but left an opening for civilians. A lot of civilians survived, but of course not all, because of that small mercy.

That Horde are mad about the attack is understandable. That they consider Hawthorne a "Butcher", is understandable. But their anger does not change the facts. And here's another fact: killing Hawthorne allowed worse people to get in charge.

He's repeatedly filling vials and storing them in a crate. At no point there's anything implying he's doing anything complex that requires intelligence.

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That doesn't change the fact that Hawthorne firebombed a camp full of civilians when all the military was away

When you firebomb camps full of civilians, you are going to kill people. Fire is indiscriminate about its victims.

Marley was ALREADY sending players to kill tauren and he and his father had committed genocide against Gann's people before the Horde/Alliance war. They were irredeemable scumbags who would never stop killing innocent people.

Except camps like Bael Modan that were there in the first place. The dwarves journal even said they built Bael'dun for the sake of harassing the Horde.

Baine mentioned nothing about the cycle of Vengeance, he said the Alliance was right to do so because Taurajo was a military target and Hawthorne felt bad.

Yet he then hypocritically exiled the tauren defending Mulgore from invasion including people like Jorn Skyseer who helped the tauren reclaim Thunderbluff from the Grimtotem.

No the Alliance had already genocided Gann's tribe and Varian declared war in the undercut.

Twinbraid killed Gann's family first and his son was a military scout+a participant in warcrimes against the tauren.

All the people in Bael'dun Fortress were these military targets and scumbags.

Bael'dun Soldier


Bael'dun Rifleman


Bael'Dun Officer


But its only ok when the Alliance attacks military targets in your fanboy mind.



Alliance siege vehicles literally trying to break into Mulgore.

You are officially delusional, we see Alliance soldiers do this stuff in the game.

He's making a recipe.

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No shit, sherlock.

So is blight, mana bombs and whatever else the Horde cooks next. The difference is that Horde murders everyone (Silverwing Outpost) or puts the civilians to work on forced labor camps (Hillsbrad) or are imprisoned to be used as target practice (Theramore) or as subjects for experimentation with chemical weapons. If they are not raised as undead.

I'll give you that. I didn't know the Bael Modan story before Cataclysm, but after reading about it, you are right in that the dwarves there were scumbags. Specially since Gann tried a diplomatic solution.

Yet he then hypocritically exiled the tauren defending Mulgore from invasion including people like Jorn Skyseer who helped the tauren reclaim Thunderbluff from the Grimtotem.


Varian declared war upon finding humans being subject to plague research, the same plague that killed the soldiers at the Wrathgate.

I changed my mind on Bael Modan. There's no use in defending them. They were invaders and refused a diplomatic solution.

But the big Cataclysm conflict in the Barrens was not an escalation of Bael Modan's storyline. It was the Alliance trying to provide a supply line to the night elves due to Horde attacks. Not that Hawthorne tried to be as merciful as possible.

Or keeping the tauren contained within their gate.

There's no quest or text that I know of, in both factions, about the Alliance wishing to invade Mulgore. The Alliance was trying to conquer the Barrens, and its objective was to secure a road to Ashenvale through Stonetalon. That the tauren were able to build the gate and wall mid-war shows there was no immediate push for Mulgore.

I'm not the one trying to pretend a simple skeleton doing repetitive work with no lore, story or even speech is an intelligent being.

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I feel you are mistaking being able to challenged at all times and being obliged to accept every single challenge. If they had to accept every single challenge no matter the circumstance, their position, strength, etc wouldn't matter. Which seems to be another thing I mentioned and you've missed.

Well, we don't know the actual outcome (people are way too confident this ends in another civil war, so much that this reeks of Illidan 2.0 to me). Furthemore, what matters more here is his reasoning, rather then the eventual outcome, as we are speaking about the prospect of his choices. Subtlety might instigate a civil war in the end, open rebellion would instigate surely and without any doubt.

As for Teldrassil, this once again brings me back to my previous "strength of position" point. Attempting a coup d'etat after Teldrassil, where Sylvanas must have had an incredibly strong position as the ultimate victor and conqueror (she managed to achieve something even Garrosh couldn't have with all his attempts to conquer Kalimdor), and where any sort of descalation of the conflict would have been heavily difficult if not impossible, would simply have been unfeasible. Even Saurfang admitted to hoping that Anduin would stop Sylvanas at Lordaeron, understanding that internally, her position was at the moment way too strong to be challenged.

I say we have a tauren holocaust.

Magatha was right.

I am not sure what I've missed, to me it seems quite clear this is a "warrior society and the biggest badest rules" situation and what Blizard intended it to be with the Horde's root as Conanesque fantasy. Well not entirely, as I've said if you are such a scary dude(ette) that no one dares challenge you then you rule (Blackhand/Doomhammer) but also if you are so well respected that no one wants to challenge you and those who do are afraid they will be despised and get infinitely challenged in return and so you rule (Thrall). Ner'zul and Garrosh are in between (Ner'zul more respect, Garrosh might), indeed every ruler is inbetween to a degree and as Machiavelli says ideally you are to be feared and loved.

As I've said it is clearly a system that leaves much to be desired but that is just how it is and canon bears it out, otherwise why would Garrosh need Mal'korok to insulate him from challenges if he can just say no? At the very least each time he would say no he loses legitimacy, which I am guessing is your angle. But I still think the "have to accept" argument is stronger so we can agree to disagree... unless I've changed your mind? Not that this is likely online no matter the discussion

IIRC Hitler got plenty of coup attempts even at the height of his power.

Teldrassil was an atrocity in the eyes of even most Horde, not to mention something which the Horde knew would galvanize the Alliance to take retribution on their families. After Teldrassil she had no hostages, not much secured value out of occupied nelf lands and an Alliance hellbent on taking her and the Horde out, so yeah not seeing her unshakable position at all.

I think it would have even made for a good story even. Sylvanas starts the war, it is awful, everyone is gritting their teeth about how here starts Garrosh 2.0 when bam, Baine, Saurfang and other execute their coup and remove her from power. Suddenly both sides have plenty of motivation to fight, the Horde no longer have a monster in charge but are still stuck in this war since Alliance is too incensed to accept her removal as satisfaction, not even close. Let the brawl begin, Lok'tar Ogar!

Alas every step we take seems to bring us closer to SoO 2.0. Maybe it is as you say a fakeout, Illidan had that prophecy thing going but he blew it off... but also kind of didn't given that his actions were instrumental in shutting down the Legion. I think the raid is more likely than you may expect Marth simply because the raid monster craves purples and there are only so many named characters to feed to it. 2nd most likely outcome is Sylvanas dies/gets deposed but the war goes on. The rest I don't see as likely at all.

Cairne wielded mak'gora against Garrosh like a weapon because Garrosh was an orc. Cairne knew that he would not only be able to goad Garrosh into participating in a mak'gora to the death, despite Thrall outlawing them, but also that Garrosh's loyal followers would respect the outcome, no matter what the result may be.

Not only is Sylvanas far less likely to be goaded into participating in a mak'gora but also far, far less likely to honour its tradition.

Also, as beloved as Cairne was, there is no refuting that the fallback of his ill-fated mak'gora plunged the Thunderbluff tauren into one of their worst crisis. It arguably did far more damage than anything Baine has done to date.

Mostly unrelated:
Diplomatic attempts failing does not necessarily mean that one of the parties involved was unwilling to participate in the attempt. It could be the reason for the failure, but more often than not, it simply means that the parties were unable to reach an accord.

Also, building a fortress in a strategically convenient position during a cold war is not "harassment". It simply means that you are preparing for the worst.

There is no denying that the dwarves were in the wrong for disrespecting the tauren culture, digging in sacred cites, and chasing the natives away or even killing them. However, the situation is far less clear cut than some in this thread would have us believe.

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The issue is that your interpretation does not fit with the entire Doomhammer and Blackhand endeavour, the only instance of a Mak'gora aimed and successful at deposing a warchief we have. The entire reason Doomhammer was waiting for years to strike and challenge Blackhand was that he needed him in a position he could not deny him, and the entire reasoning behind choosing the particular moment was that Blackhand couldn't truly afford to refuse it as;

A) His position was incredibly shaken after the defeat at Stormwind.

B) He couldn't have relied on the support of the Shadow Council in "making the thing go away" with Gul'dan in coma and the Council in disarray.

This also actually goes hand in hand with the entire Mal'korok thing. See, Mal'korok wasn't there for the entirety of Garrosh' rule, he appeared only as the dissent against him started growing and his position had become less firm due to a number of failed invasions (Gilneas, Ashenvale, and so on).

Suffice to say, I do not see how your claim that this is fully completely entrenched in canon as particularly solid, the resources are scarce, and what is there is not that much supportive of it. But as you say, we can agree to disagree.

After the successful invasions of France and Poland, which could be analogous to Teldrassil, he really didn't. Sure, there were plans, but they were so bereft of support and resources the perpetrators themselves were aware that they had little to none chance of success.


We actually don't know that, as we sadly very little information on how mere grunts, soldiers, farmers, and so on see the war. Which in my personal opinion the greatest problem of this conflict at the moment, as we are missing the most important point of reference that make such conflicts work.

And since you've already brought up "warrior cultures" to this discussion with your previous remark, I need to point out that warrior cultures usually did not have that large problems putting settlements or entire cities that had repeatedly resisted them to the sword.

Perspective matters, C9. Not everyone has a deeper understanding of strategy and grand strategy, not everyone is as informed as we, out-universe spectators, are, and it is rather unlikely that an ordinary grunt has/is either. It's not much plausible they'd be even thinking about these issues, and far more likely they'd see Sylvanas, in that particular moment, as someone who managed to conquer and completely vanquish the night elves in a matter of weeks, something her predecessors couldn't have even imagined accomplishing.

I am rather positive this is going to happen anyway, one way or another.

I seriously doubt that all things considered, but there is no point bashing heads over that, only time will tell.

And even so, Garrosh said "I will accept...". That means there was a choice involved on his part.

Agreed. This is actually something I remember talking about at one point.

And there's also King Gordok, who refused a challenge.

The Gordunni may not be members of the Horde or orcs, but it is not unlikely that the traditions are almost identical.

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Mak'gora is a test of power and popularity. You can only refuse without being seen as a coward if there's enough people backing you up. That's why the challenge is issued after some major show of failure or incompetence of the leader, so that he won't refuse without further weakening his position.

However, I could totally see Sylvanas refusing the challenge anyway. She's smart, she know she can win the public again throught other means.

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Taliesin/Evitel interview with Jeremy Feasel is out (I haven't watched it yet):

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Tauren holocaust when.

And Hawthorne firebombed the camp as the game reveals.

And just as the Alliance is free to retaliate for south shore being blighted, the Horde should be free to retaliate for Camp Taurajo being firebombed when only civilians were inside.



That doesn't change that he declared war. When a war is going, the tauren have the right to defend themselves, hence why Baine's actions are so awful.

Glad we agree there.


They were also trying to take Horde territory and invade Mulgore. And again, they contain warhawks like Gaines and Twinbraid.

He made token attempts, but if he really wanted to be merciful, he wouldn't have attacked only when all the soldiers were out on a hunt or firebombed the camp.

Incorrect, the Ballistas and Soldiers are attacking the gate. They are only stopped due to the efforts of the brave tauren Baine later exiled and the orcs sent to help the tauren.

Not true, they were trying to invade. There's a massive amount of Alliance soldiers attacking the gate as Horde questing shows.

And once again, all the people Baine exiled were good and noble tauren. Pineforest was a disciple of Naralex, Skyseer helped Baine take back Thunderbluff from the Grimtotem, Kirge Sternhorn originally came from Thunderhorn and had to find his baby in the ruins of Taurajo, ETC.

All heroic and good people Baine punished for being helping the tauren when Baine was sitting on his ass.

If he was a simple pet, he would just be called "Forsaken skeleton" and probably have his master subtitled.

Their fortress was armed to the teeth and was literally a giant cannon built for the sake of harassing the Horde.

Incorrect, they killed so many that the Stonespire tribe is considered lost and their journal shows the Dwarves were motivated by bigotry, viewing the tauren as inferior.

They were nothing more then worthless war-criminals.

And I never see you trying to make excuses for Horde aggression.

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Said giant canon was never used against the Horde nor were the dwarves launching raids on the nearby tauren settlements. (Excluding the Stonespire, but I'll get to that later.) I'm not sure how the structure simply existing can be considered "harassing the Horde".

True. Ergo, "There is no denying that the dwarves were in the wrong for disrespecting the tauren culture, digging in sacred cites, and chasing the natives away or even killing them."

However, we do not know how the diplomatic attempts went, only that they failed.

We also do not know who struck the first blow, only that the dwarven archaeology team felt threatened enough to request aid from Ironforge's army.

It is possible that the archaeologists turned violent first, it is also possible that it was the Stonepire warbraves. We simply don't know.

Either way, as I've already stated, the dwarves carry the Lion's share of the blame. Do the tauren share some of it? Perhaps, perhaps not.

I believe that Sylvanas declaring war on the Alliance was justified. However,, her method were not.

I also believe that, if the Stonespire struck first, they were justified for trying to defend their sacred land from the dwarves.

Edit:
Let me just ask you something. Do you or do you not support the Horde, including the tauren, encroaching on quillboar lands? A race that is not only also native to Kalimdor but also had settlements dotting it's landscape for hundreds of years, unlike the nomadic tauren.


Something you ought to consider when criticizing Baine for attempting diplomacy.

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Hmm that "I accept" from Garrosh does throw me in doubt. Perhaps those reforms Nazja mentions changed things, if Mak'gora is now outlawed then obv. accepting it is not imperative. Incidentally I do not see the Doomhammer/Blackhand dynamic as a detriment but rather supportive. as I see it Orgrim at first could not challenge Blackhand for a number of reasons other than "because now he can say no." He was younger, more inexperienced and way more junior in position than he will later be after winning all those WC1 battles for the Horde, he probably did not have the balls for it at first. Again there is that issue of respect, even if he is ambitious enough and can physically best Blackhand being such an upstart he would receive endless challenges in return and he can't beat everyone forever (especially if there is no "let me recover from the last battle" allowance). He needed to wait for his own prestige to grow and Blackhands to diminish before he could challenge him without being endlessly challenged himself after the fact.

Also my thinking has the hilarious bonus of seeing Sylvanas in a loincloth having to face off against one of the giant lugs that make up the rest of the Horde upper crust.

I am not sure how does "a challenge he could not refuse because he was still reeling from the failed attack against Stormwind City" directly translate to "a challenge he can't refuse under any circumstances", but that might be just me.

But for the sake of clarity, at the time of the mak'hora, Orgrim had served as Blackhand's second in comman for over eleven years, and for over nine by the time of Durotan's death, so he was not inexperienced by far or unknown by far.

I am pretty sure I've explained it well enough. I said that Orgrim had to wait until he got that experience and respect before issuing his challenge lest he get many challenges in turn after his victory, not to mention he might not have felt as sure of his victory when he was starting out. Also wasn't there a massive time crunch that made all of the events of the first war take like 2 years?

Yes, you have provided an explanation, the issue is that the explanation does not line up with the written evidence. It does not explain why "Blackhand couldn't have refused the challenge specifically because he was reeling from his defeat at Stormwind". You are focusing on explaining why Orgrim had to wait until that point with his challenge (something explained anyway), yet you are completely omitting the actual gist of the argument, Blackhand. The text is specifically written as if Blackhand had had a choice to refuse the challenge, but couldn't have in his precarious position, not without losing even more of the Horde's respect.

In any case, for the sake of more clarity, Stormwind fell in the year 3, Durotan was killed in the year 1, the war started in the year 0. Moreover, Orgrim was Blackhand's second since the wars against the ogres, dated a decade before the opening of the Dark Portal, and way throught the entire conflict with the Draenei. As I said, he was not inexperienced nor unknown by far.

i always thought that jinbe would make an excellent wow orcish character.

Except they helped attack Taurajo as revealed in quests.


The Dwarves journal written in their own perspective made it clear the tauren were no threat to them.

Again, I never see you defending the Forsaken killing Hillsbrad farmers or the orcs in Ashenvale.

Dude, we've already discussed canon says not all the tauren tribes were nomadic.

The quillboar tribes rarely engage in diplomacy and when people try to engage them in diplomacy, most tribes usually reject it.

Baine didn't attempt diplomacy, he said their enemies were in the right for massacring his own people and that his people were in the wrong for defending themselves against those currently attacking them.

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Yes, after war was declared. Obviously I was speaking about the tenuous peace before Cataclysm.

This was basically its purpose. Provide an already established, well fortified garrison from which to launch attacks on the Horde if the relationship between the Alliance and Horde ever worsened. Which, again, is not harassment.

Not quite. They were able to drive them off initially but thought it prudent to request military aid.


Rogue elements referring to the tauren, among others.

The world isn't black and white. Me stating that we are not aware of all of the events that led to the Stonespire being forced to evacuate their village or die defending it does not mean that I am defending the actions of the dwarves. It simply means that we are missing context which may or may not reveal them to be the irredeemable villains you believe them to be.

The point being that your overly aggressive stance towards quillboar and disdain for their culture could be likened to Khazgorm's opinion of the tauren. and that maybe you ought to respect Baine for being a greater man than Khazgorm and Twinbraid instead of simply considering each and every of his actions an affront to the Horde and show of Alliance favouritism.

Edit:
Let's go back to the topic that started this all: Baine exiling tauren.

While mines, and any other infrastructure than can or is being to fuel your enemy's war effort is a valid target, Twinbraids' actions against the goblins were extreme. The reason being that he is revenge driven and, unable to take vengeance against the goblin infiltrator who actually cause his son's death, he seeks it from the goblin miners and their entertainment.

This (Twinbraids) is exactly the kind of person Baine does not want Jorn Skyseer to turn into.

And honestly, for defying a direct order from their leader, simply being expelled from the capital is a very mild punishment. It's not like he exiled them from all tauren communities and made them outlaws.

Oh, and before I forget, in any case anyone thinks I am making light of Twinbraids' actions against the Stonespire due to not calling it a genocide.

Gann calls his tribe a "lost tribe", but that is not because he is the lone survivor. It is because the other survivors integrated themselves into other tauren tribes. Was the majority of his tribe killed? Perhaps, but "lost tribe" is the only statement I could find that would imply so. (And I already explained why this does not necessarily have to mean that they were all killed.) In fact, in vanilla Gann seemed far more bothered by the dwarves digging in tauren land than by his killed tribesmen.

This is the issue with foregone conclusions and sensationalism.

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Seems like you still are making light of it. /shrug