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  #25001  
Old 07-08-2014, 02:22 PM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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I dunno, its kind of hard to really see any start ups taking off as less and less people are able to afford to buy things other than necessities. Kind of need the majority if people to be able to buy stuff for capitalism to work properly.

Plus his argument about how to reduce the increasing US social costs makes more sense than just cutting the program. Unless you like the idea of businesses subsidizing their profits on the backs of taxpayers.
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  #25002  
Old 07-08-2014, 02:30 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Its not really related to the talk about modern-day CEO salaries, but there is some precedent in history for payment being used for democratic purposes. In ancient Greece (I'm talking like 500BC here) the boule was a council responsible for advising the executive branch and carrying out the daily affairs of state (i.e. finances, the navy etc.) The problem was that for a great length of time these positions were unpaid, which meant that realistically the average Athenian could not afford to be involved in the institution. It was the same problem with the courts, if you're a farmer that lives way out in the steppes and you're called for several days to do jury duty in the city then unless you have some disposable income saved up or sons that can mind the farm in your absence then its simply not possible for you to attend. Which effectively meant that the judiciary and executive branches of government were out of reach for most citizens; making you wonder how their form of government could even be called a democracy.

The solution to this problem was to simply pay people for it. Of course richer citizens still ultimately had the advantage, the reforms made it possible for the poorest of the demos to be involved with the state.
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  #25003  
Old 07-08-2014, 03:22 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I would argue that the single biggest waste of resources and grossest inequalities is because of government cronyism.

If one company only pays a 10% tax rate and a second one pays 35% then the later can't compete. Taxing income above $400,000 a year does not effect people that already have money or know how to work there way around the tax code. The payroll tax by comparison doesn't have as many brackets but is actually regressive. You don't pay payroll tax on anything more than $110,000. Besides that it is 6.1% you pay and your employer pays a matching 6.1% for Social Security. Medicare is another 1.45% and your employer pays a matching 1.45%. Despite the smaller numbers and regressive nature the tax is 34% of all our income tax paid and income is 47%.



You do have to wonder how much revenue could be generated from a flat tax like the payroll tax that can't be written off if the $110,000 cap was removed. A society where a central bureaucracy chooses who succeeds and who fails is going to hurt everyone. There is less incentive to innovate and be productive if making friends with the state is more fruitful. Less innovation leads to stagnation and less productivity leads to lower wages and a higher cost of living. It is a lot harder to move up the social ladder when you need the state.
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Old 07-08-2014, 03:57 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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So what you're saying is that people like Mitt Romney who control the state through lobbying are terrible?
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  #25005  
Old 07-08-2014, 04:31 PM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
I would argue that the single biggest waste of resources and grossest inequalities is because of government cronyism.
Yeah, but realistically that's not going away. In fact, under both parties, it's probably going to get worse.

But generally what got us here is likely what you're railing against anyway.

Largely what the article was aimed at was people who lobby the government to get things done, and generally get what they want. The ones who generally are against anything that would change the current idea that the rich are the ones who make jobs as opposed to people wanting and being able to buy shit. It was aimed at them to try and get them to change their mind. As I said, I doubt it will do much, but if a few listen than it's better than none.

Last edited by Garotar; 07-08-2014 at 04:37 PM..
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  #25006  
Old 07-08-2014, 06:12 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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So what you're saying is that people like Mitt Romney who control the state through lobbying are terrible?
Romney was too busy donating money to his church.

Look who small business owners voted for in the last election cycle. Those are the ones that are on the front lines fighting against cronyism. They are the entrepreneurs that we need to have a functioning free market. Look at the kind of policies that were being suggested or the kind of things that were actually pushed through in the last 6 years.
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  #25007  
Old 07-08-2014, 06:25 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Romney was too busy donating money to his church.

Look who small business owners voted for in the last election cycle. Those are the ones that are on the front lines fighting against cronyism. They are the entrepreneurs that we need to have a functioning free market. Look at the kind of policies that were being suggested or the kind of things that were actually pushed through in the last 6 years.
It is just very queer, dear lady, how twisted your view of this whole situation is. "Cronyism" is apparently your favourite word, but you fail to realise that governmental "cronyism" is a direct product of the large amounts of money that "business", i.e. corporations, inject into politics. They pick and choose who they'd like for what position. This time they picked Obama, and next time they'll pick someone else. It doesn't matter who, but they are all in the pocket of the corporations. That is "cronyism". Politics in the post-industrial capitalist state rely on corporate money to sustain their existence.

Politicians are bought and sold on the "free market". Is that the kind of world you'd like to live in?
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  #25008  
Old 07-08-2014, 06:36 PM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Romney was too busy donating money to his church.

Look who small business owners voted for in the last election cycle. Those are the ones that are on the front lines fighting against cronyism. They are the entrepreneurs that we need to have a functioning free market. Look at the kind of policies that were being suggested or the kind of things that were actually pushed through in the last 6 years.
You're not going to get a functioning free market, at least not in the way you want, out of either party.
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  #25009  
Old 07-08-2014, 06:48 PM
Lord Eliphas Lord Eliphas is offline

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I always love the term free market. Because I don't think Paj can personally compete with, say, B.P. or Exxon or goddamn Valve/Blizzard. Because it's impossible. Because it is not a free market. Unless Paj is secretly a billionaire.
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  #25010  
Old 07-08-2014, 06:55 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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In 2011, Fox News Channel was the most popular cable news channel in the United States, with a median viewership of some 1.9 million people during evening “prime time” (Holcomb, Mitchell, and Rosentiel 2012)- with this is mind, you’d think that they would have a commitment to deliver accurate scientific research, wouldn’t you?

A new study has revealed that this is not the case, particularly in relation to climate change. In fact, coverage of the hot topic is overwhelmingly misleading.

Analysis by the science-policy nonprofit Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) finds that 93 percent of primetime program discussions of Climate Change on Fox News are inaccurate, as are 81 percent of Wall Street Journal editorials on the subject.
http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documen...ng-Science.pdf
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  #25011  
Old 07-08-2014, 07:08 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagan View Post
It is just very queer, dear lady, how twisted your view of this whole situation is. "Cronyism" is apparently your favourite word, but you fail to realise that governmental "cronyism" is a direct product of the large amounts of money that "business", i.e. corporations, inject into politics. They pick and choose who they'd like for what position. This time they picked Obama, and next time they'll pick someone else. It doesn't matter who, but they are all in the pocket of the corporations. That is "cronyism". Politics in the post-industrial capitalist state rely on corporate money to sustain their existence.

Politicians are bought and sold on the "free market". Is that the kind of world you'd like to live in?
Not all politics.

In some democracies both unions and corporations are banned from making monetary donations, only individuals can make monetary donations (even then the restriction is $5000).
Even in the case of ads, those ads are restricted by campaign finance rules (campaign finances often have a cap).

That being said, in our case, there is a tendency for political parties to attempt to jump over the campaign finance rules.

Ofcourse, they get caught (such as the in and out scandal and the recent misuse of funds by the NDP).
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  #25012  
Old 07-08-2014, 07:09 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Something something fox news diss. Something something Liberal snark. Something something Jon Stewart gif.
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  #25013  
Old 07-08-2014, 09:02 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Originally Posted by Taintedmage View Post
Not all politics.

In some democracies both unions and corporations are banned from making monetary donations, only individuals can make monetary donations (even then the restriction is $5000).
Even in the case of ads, those ads are restricted by campaign finance rules (campaign finances often have a cap).

That being said, in our case, there is a tendency for political parties to attempt to jump over the campaign finance rules.

Ofcourse, they get caught (such as the in and out scandal and the recent misuse of funds by the NDP).

This is a thread about American politics. What I've said equally applies to British politics, despite greater protections in Britain.
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  #25014  
Old 07-08-2014, 11:14 PM
Shroombie Shroombie is offline

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  #25015  
Old 07-09-2014, 05:10 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I don't understand why that guy thinks there is going to be "Torches and pitchforks," going after businesses either. We actually had an armed standoff in Nevada over government overreach. Does the OWS crowd even like firearms?
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  #25016  
Old 07-09-2014, 06:29 AM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
I don't understand why that guy thinks there is going to be "Torches and pitchforks," going after businesses either. We actually had an armed standoff in Nevada over government overreach. Does the OWS crowd even like firearms?
Probably history. And it's not only OWS you need to worry about if things get bad enough.
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  #25017  
Old 07-09-2014, 06:36 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I didn't even know OWS was still a thing, they're a terrible, stupid movement.
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  #25018  
Old 07-09-2014, 07:32 AM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagan View Post
This is a thread about American politics. What I've said equally applies to British politics, despite greater protections in Britain.
woops.
<----Is referring to Canada when I said OUR.

-----
As far as for OWS that movement pretty much just burned out.
It's all really about timing though.
Had it happened near a time where Senators/Congressman were being elected and had there been OWS Senator/Congressman (think like how there are Tea Party Senators/Congressman) THEN maybe they could have done something but as for the way they were it was just kinda silly.
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  #25019  
Old 07-09-2014, 08:11 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Canadians...
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  #25020  
Old 07-09-2014, 09:33 AM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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OWS is still around, they just don't occupy, therefore do not make the news as much as they did. They are now just one of the many different groups looking to try and change politics for what they think is the better.

Unfortunately the only people at this point who are going to change politics are the people with enough money to change politics.
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  #25021  
Old 07-09-2014, 10:01 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I didn't even know OWS was still a thing, they're a terrible, stupid movement.
It was just a chaotic lawless mess.
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  #25022  
Old 07-09-2014, 02:12 PM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
It was just a chaotic lawless mess.
Nah, more like some relatively harmless drum circles and poorly planned utopian anarchy. They dispersed once they ran out of tempeh sloppy joes and patchouli.

If they really wanted to get people's attention they should have taken a page from the Civil Rights movement. Those guys took to the streets in their Sunday best and demanded to be taken seriously.
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  #25023  
Old 07-09-2014, 03:44 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Nah, more like some relatively harmless drum circles and poorly planned utopian anarchy. They dispersed once they ran out of tempeh sloppy joes and patchouli.

If they really wanted to get people's attention they should have taken a page from the Civil Rights movement. Those guys took to the streets in their Sunday best and demanded to be taken seriously.
From what I understand the chaos prevented the police from maintaining order and enforcing the law. People took advantage of that and committed vandalism, theft, and rapes.
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  #25024  
Old 07-09-2014, 04:12 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Here is a wonderful little video explaining the hypocrisy of limousine liberals and their open borders bullshit.
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  #25025  
Old 07-09-2014, 04:29 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Are there people that actually support amnesty?
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