Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > Scrolls of Lore > Halls of Lordaeron

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #326  
Old 05-05-2020, 10:21 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,520
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #327  
Old 05-06-2020, 01:28 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Keeper of the Grove
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 616

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Yes, I've been approached on this a few times. I've unfortunately lost a lot of motivation to look into these in detail. I don't see the point with this franchise anymore. So my analysis is pretty limited.

Observation 1: Blizzard's MAUs are still flat. The trend seems to still be the same.

Observation 2: The reported increase in subscriptions happened around this time in 2018 for the same reason as I suspect it's happening this time: playable pre-order bonuses.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #328  
Old 05-06-2020, 10:13 PM
Wreave Wreave is offline

Owl Scout
Wreave's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 11

Default

This is one thread that I've followed for quite a while. One of the last vestiges of my interest in WoW. Like Kyalin, I'm at that "Just don't care anymore." stage.

I thought they had learned their lesson after MoP/WoD. But nope, they actually went and one upped on that debacle.

Blizz narrative team really put a tombstone in it.
Reply With Quote
  #329  
Old 05-07-2020, 12:48 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Keeper of the Grove
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 616

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wreave View Post
This is one thread that I've followed for quite a while. One of the last vestiges of my interest in WoW. Like Kyalin, I'm at that "Just don't care anymore." stage.

I thought they had learned their lesson after MoP/WoD. But nope, they actually went and one upped on that debacle.

Blizz narrative team really put a tombstone in it.
Given this, I will try to continue to push out content.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #330  
Old 05-07-2020, 10:48 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,527

Default

What was the ultimate verdict, did BFA's bad lore actually hurt them or was it about the same?

I heard some folks say BFA was up and others say that was only due to them tossing in "Classic" numbers.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #331  
Old 05-08-2020, 12:48 AM
Wreave Wreave is offline

Owl Scout
Wreave's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 11

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Given this, I will try to continue to push out content.
Ah, I didn't mean that in the sense of "Please keep producing content!". I'll keep an eye out if you do, but please don't do it unless you want to.
Reply With Quote
  #332  
Old 05-08-2020, 12:59 AM
Wreave Wreave is offline

Owl Scout
Wreave's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 11

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
What was the ultimate verdict, did BFA's bad lore actually hurt them or was it about the same?

I heard some folks say BFA was up and others say that was only due to them tossing in "Classic" numbers.
I think it would be difficult to tell w/o the internal data.

As small data point: When I've quit in the past (prior to BfA) and had to give a story reason for quitting, I had to go to "Other" and then fill in why. But for BfA they specifically added a "Quit Because Unhappy with Story" option to the exit survey.

And to be more specific, the problem wasn't with "lore" (which actually sounded pretty interesting from what I saw and from following Bellular). The problem (for me and others) was with the story handing a beat down to the player's preferred race/faction identification. So, more "story" than "lore".

... Seems to be a real epidemic these days of writers destroying IPs by getting too focused on their own narrative kinks.
Reply With Quote
  #333  
Old 05-14-2020, 11:47 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

Time-Lost Proto Nerd
Insane Guy of Doom's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 10,009

Default

There was an interview with Ion Hazzikostas today that had a section on the future of night elves and Forsaken. The major points were:

-Tyrande will have a storyline in Shadowlands, but there won't be any content about night elves as a whole. The aftermath of Teldrassil (outside of how it personally effects Tyrande) is a story they plan to tell, but not in Shadowlands.

-Similarly, the future of the Forsaken and their identity post-Sylvanas is something the plan to explore in future expansions, but not in Shadowlands.

-Night elves and Forsaken will get new homes someday, but again, not in Shadowlands. They are "already thinking of ideas" for where their new homes/cities/whatever will be.

-Cryptically, Ion mentions that time works differently in the Shadowlands and that when we return to Azeroth more time might have passed there than it did for us. Many people have begun to speculate this is hinting at a time jump world revamp for 10.0, possibly with new night elf and forsaken capitals.
Reply With Quote
  #334  
Old 05-14-2020, 12:35 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Keeper of the Grove
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 616

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
There was an interview with Ion Hazzikostas today that had a section on the future of night elves and Forsaken. The major points were:

-Tyrande will have a storyline in Shadowlands, but there won't be any content about night elves as a whole. The aftermath of Teldrassil (outside of how it personally effects Tyrande) is a story they plan to tell, but not in Shadowlands.

-Similarly, the future of the Forsaken and their identity post-Sylvanas is something the plan to explore in future expansions, but not in Shadowlands.

-Night elves and Forsaken will get new homes someday, but again, not in Shadowlands. They are "already thinking of ideas" for where their new homes/cities/whatever will be.

-Cryptically, Ion mentions that time works differently in the Shadowlands and that when we return to Azeroth more time might have passed there than it did for us. Many people have begun to speculate this is hinting at a time jump world revamp for 10.0, possibly with new night elf and forsaken capitals.
Yeah, we were discussing this interview over in my discord.

To put it bluntly. I'm pessimistic. Is that new home just going to be a few more tents in Stormwind, or will I like it? I certainly don't feel like I have a reason to expect the latter - and them saying that they're talking about it isn't even a plan for a plan. When will it be here? Well, I can say we know when it will not: two more years. Past that? Two? Ten? Twenty? Two-hundred? I don't see a reason to wait to find out, at least not while I'm paying them, which this is not enough to get me to start doing.

I also won't, on the basis of this, stop advocating for Night Elf fans to stop paying these writers for this content (at least unless they really, truly enjoy it).

I will feel more comfortable about changing that stance when I see evidence that a satisfying variant of this... I can't say "promised" content actually exists in the game - if I haven't just lost interest by then. That's kind of one of the risks that comes along with screwing things over for a decade, and then deciding to maybe possibly resolve a storyline several years after that.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #335  
Old 05-15-2020, 05:42 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,527

Default

What do you want to bet that Shadowlands will have some HORRIBLE revelation about Elune and Nelfs after the timeskip won't worship Elune anymore?
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #336  
Old 05-16-2020, 11:00 PM
Wreave Wreave is offline

Owl Scout
Wreave's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 11

Default

Frankly that interview sounds like a girl turning you down for the tenth time... "I'm so busy. Maybe I'll see about having some free time in 2-3 months from now." (Translation: Oh EFF NOO!)

And really... you should have quit asking after the third turndown.
Reply With Quote
  #337  
Old 05-19-2020, 01:00 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Keeper of the Grove
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 616

Default

I want you to imagine a story with me.

Here's how it goes - there's a commander of a small special forces squad. This commander has worked with their soldiers for some time and considers them to be personal friends. They also are working with a military attache from another country who is an ally - but relations have usually been a bit arms-length, and there's sometimes been a hint of underlying racial tension. Regardless, the commander knows of this person, knows of their accomplishments, and respects them.

During the story, which concerns their attempt to put down a dangerous militia leader, the commander loses their entire team. It's enough that the commander screams out their soldiers' names as they die, and swears revenge after they have. But then they learn that the attache survived. The attache expresses regret, and states that they should have died instead of the commander's friends. The commander replies with: "We are all equals. No one is more valuable than another."

Presumably while staring blankly at the camera.

----

We don't have to imagine this story - it exists in WoW. That last line is taken verbatim from Shandris Feathermoon to John J. Keeshan after her friends died. The whole story stops in that instance so that Shandris can tell the viewer "diversity is our strength" - and by so doing cheapens the deaths of people that she was supposed to care about.

This is a worrying repetition of a trend that's hit recent writing overall, but it has always been with WoW. I call this problem "Peak California" - which may be defined as an intense, but clumsy attempt to have your story promote left-wing progressive values in a way that (possibly intentionally - in a way so as to say that the context itself does not overcome the value) ignores the context of the situation - and by so doing results in a strange, unrealistic, or even immoral message.

The Night Elves, being a traditionalist, territorial, and nominally xenophobic race are frequent targets of this despite being WoW's only female facing race. Since I concentrate on them anyway - I'm going to continue to do that as I map out this problem.

"If you don't take their drugs, you'll die!"

Let's imagine another story - a world even. The elite in society have found a way to make themselves stronger by making a permanent choice that affects their very physiology. In exchange for this power, however, they have to partake in a highly addicting ritual, and if they don't do that, they'll wither and die. Their new power has profound ecological and social consequences - and because of this - they face intense hatred from the rest of society. Eventually their power nearly leads the world to destruction and plunges it into a dark age. Now, society has to ask deep and painful questions about how to deal with them.

If you guessed that I'm asking you to imagine Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, you're right - and with that in mind, spoilers ahead.

In the world of Deus Ex: Human Revolution - only the fortunate 1/125th of the population can get physical augmentations. They have to take an addicting drug called Neuropozyne for the rest of their life or their body will reject their augmentations and kill them. Their augmentations also result in a widening economic gap. People are often told that in order to work, they need to be augmented, but augmentations are hideously expensive and so is Neuropozyne. If you can't afford augmentations, you are left behind. As a result, hatred for the augmented is often the preserve of the underprivileged.

The game presents reasonable figures on this side of the augmentation debate and exposes you to their perspective. William Taggart for example, is a philanthropist, a psychologist, and someone who genuinely believes that augmentation poses a danger to society and should be regulated. The game will even let you take his side at the end if you are persuaded by his arguments. There ARE clear bigots and bad guys on this side of the argument. The narrative doesn't defend them, but they're not the only voice, and it's clear that you can oppose augmentations without that opposition simply being hatred. You also aren't forced to agree with their message - you are yourself augmented. You work for an augmentation firm - and you are free to choose - as I did - to side with that firm at the end of the game as well. The game is mature enough to present the issue to you fully, with all of its complexity and even ugliness, and let you make your own decisions - as fans of this franchise come to expect.

Mankind Divided was different.

After the clumsily-named "Aug incident" - a worldwide disaster where what the world thinks was a glitch causes the entire augmented population to spin into a murderous rage until your protagonist stops it (in the last game) - millions are dead and the world is shocked into hating and fearing augmented people. After we just got done explaining that augmented were super-wealthy, privileged super-people whose hubris like Icarus made them fly too close to the sun, we're now supposed to accept that they are downtrod apartheid-allegories who we must now protect from bigoted LGBT Czech policewomen.

What?

I'm not the only one who was... confused, by the racism allegory in the second prequel to Deus Ex. Do I love the game? Absolutely. Was this part of it strange? Also, absolutely. My point is not that your game cannot have an allegory to prejudice, or that it should present characters who belong in American History X in a positive light. It's that augmentation is a bad allegory for prejudice.

So is the arcane in Warcraft.

The fact that arcane addiction can be passed to your kids makes the question a bit more complex and therefore interesting than augmentation - but many of the same elements are there. It conveys a supernatural power to you. If you are an elf and you don't feed your addiction, you will wither and die. It has brought dire consequences to the world, including multiple demonic invasions. It has historically been the province of the rich and powerful. In Wrath, we also established (but never picked up) that the use of the arcane causes a strain on the world that if left unchecked, will one day turn it into the Netherstorm.

In Warcraft though, when a Night Elf has a concern with that, none of that matters. Their points are never regarded as reasonable - those concerns are not even allowed to be expressed. Instead, Tyrande looks down her nose at Thalyssra - she and Liadrin have a nice session for the Horde where the Night Elves are chastised for being bigots. The Nightborne join the Horde. The Night Elves are punished for their bigotry rather than being rewarded for their assistance by being invaded and subjected to a genocide which the Nightborne are complicit in.

How's that for a moral?

The Cycle of Hatred

Warcraft 3 contained within in two stories which have been on repeat in WoW since the writers evidently can't figure out what else to do.

The first is Grom's redemption at the end of the Orc campaign. He is taunted first by Cenarius and then by Mannoroth that he (and by extension the Orcs) hasn't changed and is no better than Mannoroth. They're referring quite plainly to the Orcs' bloodlust, and Grom's defeat of Mannoroth is in that sense symbolic. He doesn't just save Orcs from demon blood - he rejects that very mentality.

Then a little man named Dave Kosak came along and drove a spike into that. Garrosh and the Mag'har that he manipulates are clear statements that actually no - they are the same. It was this that the current team I feel tried to rectify - and they would have come close if not for the other story. Saurfang could have confronted Sylvanas in front of Orgrimmar. Sylvanas could have then confronted him with his own contradictions - his own complicity in the war. Like Grom then in the canyon before him, he could have rejected her attempts to call him (and by extension the entire Orcish race) no better than she was - and THAT could have been what turned the Horde against her. That would have been meaningful. That would have redeemed the faction. THAT would have showed real change.

But they didn't do that - and I think that's because of the other story from Warcraft 3.

During Mists of Pandaria - Taran Zhu chastises Lor'themar and Jaina for the cycle of hatred. He states that every reprisal begets a further and more terrible reprisal - and that the solution is for both sides to turn around and walk away.

Jaina's inclusion in this and her arc through Battle for Azeroth is directly tied to the first coining of the "Cycle of Hatred" - which came from Admiral Daelin Proudmoore's racially motivated invasion of Durotar. The cycle of hatred made sense then as a problem to point out - and it came at the right time because while one could understand Daelin's hatred, they still also knew that he was working off of bad information. That this would establish the Alliance as a mistrustful, skeptical entity seeking to contain the Horde, which had legitimately changed - was good worldbuilding as well for setup into a complicated geopolitical situation.

That died at least in Mists of Pandaria - possibly Cataclysm. In Garrosh, the Horde was given a fascist dictator who promoted Orcish racial supremacy to the point where approaching the end, that hatred was turning on other members of the Horde. Worse, much of the Horde, including the majority of the Orcs - were said to be following him. Cycle of Hatred shouldn't apply here - here is a line that no one should cross and Garrosh crossed it. Yet we have, in war crimes, the Celestials - who are framed as being morally correct by virtue of their status as gods - messaging that Tyrande and the Alliance were just as much on trial as Garrosh. The moral authority of the story is telling us that Tyrande, for being the leader of a people who were brutally invaded (remember, the Horde did not take prisoners - civilian corpses litter the ground at Silverwing Outpost, and Horde troops were torturing captive sentinels to death in the Shatterspear War camp), was morally equivalent to Garrosh Hellscream, who froths and rages at the end of the book that he was going to hunt down and kill every last Night Elf on the planet.

Those two are framed as being morally equivalent. That's how the cycle of hatred's moral framing of war - which is always bad and is always motivated by hatred, specifically racial hatred - operates.

This didn't end in BfA. Jaina's prominence in BfA directly calls to Daelin Proudmoore. Saurfang proudly tells the camera that they're going to Azeroth to break the cycle. The Horde's 'redemption' just before this is Saurfang expressing regret for the Horde's actions, and Anduin telling him that the Alliance is bad too because of Arthas. These narrative decisions pretty much preclude the idea of the Horde redeeming itself in a believable way that firmly rejects the idea of militarism, yet the narrative treats it as though they have.

Trying to focus on the Cycle of Hatred, and regard the Alliance as being equally culpable in a war that kicked off with the Horde committing and recommitting acts of racially-motivated mass murder targeted at civilians meant that the Horde never got a chance to firmly reject that ideology. Peak California got in the way of that.

A time for choosing

In 1964, Ronald Reagan gave a pro-Barry Goldwater speech entitled "A Time for Choosing" - at the end of which he expressed the importance of standing up to the Soviet Union and rejecting appeasement. As Reagan states: "Where then is the road to peace? Well, it's a simple answer after all. You and I have the courage to say to our enemies there is a price we will not pay. There is a point beyond which they must not advance." It's absolute conservative red meat, and you can find videos of it on YouTube set to transformers music, eagles, American flags, laughing middle class children playing in auburn meadows, and the full might of Freedomland being brought down on some terrorists. It's also the foundation for Reagan's ideal of "Peace through Strength".

California today doesn't like this product of California, and Peak California abhors it. So when Tyrande shows up at the peace treaty signing with the message that she doesn't trust that the Horde has changed and won't sign the treaty, she may as well have been wearing Reagan's cowboy hat. The author-designated exemplar of non-toxic masculinity condescendingly lectures Tyrande that the Horde has changed, and Tyrande is once again framed as a racist bigot who can't let go of the past.

That past being a history of repeated invasions, driven by a combination of greed and racial hatred, where no prisoners were taken, and where attacks designed to extract the maximum number of civilian casualties were staged - culminating in the burning of Teldrassil… and once again, the Horde never gave any indication that it actually had changed. The leadership changed, but there was no firm rejection of the ideology that led to that past, and no guarantee that Tyrande's people could never again be the victims of the ideology that sought to exterminate them.

This is where the moral perversion comes in. The "Cycle of Hatred" isn't rejecting "A time for choosing". It's rejecting "Never Again". Peak California thought it was going after Reagan. In reality, it was going after FDR.

If you're wondering why Night Elf fans are worried that Tyrande will be a raid boss, by the way, this is why: it looks like she's being groomed as the new Daelin Proudmoore. Peak California's twisted morality states that war for even this reason is wrong and racially motivated. Anduin is the writer-designated moral voice of the Alliance - and he's not allowed to be wrong. It's an absolutely monstrous moral lesson that comes out as the result of this - especially if via a Sylvanas redemption, we end up with a moral message that states "genocide is okay in certain circumstances" - but that's what Peak California does.

As I conclude, please don't misunderstand me. This isn't a statement that you can't have politics, left-of-center politics, diversity, representation, or stories that speak up against racism and bigotry in video games. I personally think that you should - but if your pursuit of that is so focused and so blind that it ignores the surrounding context to the point where you are delivering even more monstrous moral "lessons"? You might want to reconsider what you're doing.
__________________

Last edited by Kyalin V. Raintree; 05-19-2020 at 01:19 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #338  
Old 05-24-2020, 07:28 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,527

Default

I'll have to write up a bigger reply another day, but I agree in general, Blizz has no respect for prior continuity or context. I don't know if it's a problem of too many cooks in the kitchen, changing writers over time or the weakness of the story folks compared to the design folks, but they pay no attention to the morals suggested by their stories

It almost feels intentional honestly


Edit: I'd definitely say I dont see it as uniformly partisan or "California" as you do

Plenty of Blizz stuff over the years reads as right-leaning and there's the occasional confederate flag in some of the old sons of the storm art
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/

Last edited by Mutterscrawl; 05-26-2020 at 08:00 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #339  
Old 05-26-2020, 09:27 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Keeper of the Grove
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 616

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
I'll have to write up a bigger reply another day, but I agree in general, Blizz has no respect for prior continuity or context. I don't know if it's a problem of too many cooks in the kitchen, changing writers over time or the weakness of the story folks compared to the design folks, but they pay no attention to the morals suggested by their stories

It almost feels intentional honestly


Edit: I'd definitely say I dont see it as uniformly partisan or "California" as you do

Plenty of Blizz stuff over the years reads as right-leaning and there's the occasional confederate flag in some of the old sons of the storm art
One of the things that I regret about that post is that it's interpreted in its SF copy as being "anti-SJW" - which it's not. I understand that certain bad actors were always going to portray it that way, but I picked "California" and not "Oregon" for a reason. To recognize and write about systemic inequities in our society is not by itself a bad thing. It becomes a problem when you start carrying water for systems of racial supremacy and genocide simply because doing so could be interpreted as "anti-imperialist", which I feel is WoW's core moral issue.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #340  
Old 06-09-2020, 11:36 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Keeper of the Grove
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 616

Default

So I recently came across this thread.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-cities/551123

As of right now, no one really is answering it. The question has to do with resources, and usually when we get to this question, Night Elf fans (and Forsaken fans now) are asked to patiently wait for good content that will never come. "It will cost a raid tier", they say, and in another year, I may have made the argument that regardless of that, Blizzard should value the members of these two rather large fanbases more than a raid that will be relevant for all of three months.

Today I'm not going to do that though, in light of this:

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d...ion20shltr.htm

Now, I'm not saying that we gut Kotick's pay or even reduce it out of the multi-million dollar range. However, in cash awards alone, Mr. Kotick takes 4.2 mm out of the company each year. [1] Which is a pretty hefty sum. Now, let's say that a full time developer has a salary of 100,000. (Check the filing - it's significantly less for a Jr. Developer in Southern California) Now, let's bluntly estimate the costs of taxes, insurance, training, and infrastructure at 40% of that amount - which gets us 140,000 per year, per full time employee (FTE).

4.2 mm/140k per year = 30 FTEs - from which we can expect 60,000 hours per year.

What is that in perspective? One estimate claims that AAA games require 2-3 years to make using teams of 150-250 people - which includes the entire game rather than just environmental and quest design.[2] So - one-million hours on average. If we take the 2.5 year average duration - that gives us 15% of the total allocation for the game just for two cities. But if we reduce that to one year's worth, we still have 6%, which still isn't bad, and ultimately doesn't consider WoW's graphics and systems in comparison to its AAA peers.

That then leaves the obvious question - how is Bobby Kotick going to eat with only 26 million in stock awards a year? Well, let's say that throwing some love to Night Elf and Forsaken fans brings back 250,000 subscribers - or 0.25 MAUs. Doing more back-of-the-envelope math, let's take the $15/mo subscription cost, annualize it ($180/yr), and multiply it out. That gets us $45 mm in revenue. ATVI has a roughly 17% average profit margin after all costs including taxes. [3] That gets us 7,650,000 in profit. We don't need to consider the incremental salaries because we're just taking from one bucket and putting it in another.

… and you know, Mr. Kotick? You can have it all. True, it wouldn't get the investors off of your back about your exorbitant pay, but it would make the game better, probably bring more people back, and set this franchise that much more on the road to recovery. Ignoring that you probably wouldn't need 60,000 hours to create these cities in the first place. Although, maybe you could put the extra time into fixing these races?

So what do you say?

[1] https://www1.salary.com/Robert-A-Kot...ZZARD-INC.html

[2] https://www.gamedev.net/forums/topic...riple-a-games/

[3] https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives...12019x10xk.htm
__________________

Last edited by Kyalin V. Raintree; 06-09-2020 at 11:45 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #341  
Old 06-19-2020, 09:04 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

Time-Lost Proto Nerd
Insane Guy of Doom's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 10,009

Default

Something neat datamined from the newest Shadowlands build that may be of interest to the themes of this thread, though not directly night elf adjacent.

The Alliance appears to be getting its own version of the Garrosh/Sylvanas/Faction civil war storyline in Shadowlands.

Good news, Tyrande isn't the implied to be a potential Garrosh/Sylvanas stand it. Bad news is its Matthias Shaw and Genn Greymane and if a war between Anduin and Genn does go down you know which side Tyrande will pick and which will be presented as the good guys.

The gist of it is a set of voice files were discovered that appear to be a conversation between Matthias Shaw and Genn about the aftermath of the pre-expansion event. We only have Shaw's voice lines.

Anduin is gone, but not dead, with no context as to what that means (the most common theory is that he's trapped in the Maw like Jaina and Tyrande), and Turalyon has become the new leader of the Alliance in his place. Shaw doesn't think Turalyon should be the leader and tells Genn he should overthrow Turalyon and take control of the Alliance.

Since we don't have Genn's quotes, we don't know what he thinks of the idea. But whatever Genn says in response to Shaw suggesting he basically stage a coup is something that makes Shaw say “Yes, your Majesty.” It could be him chastising Shaw for suggesting such a thing or it could be him agreeing.

Here are the lines themselves.

“Champion, you are needed in Stormwind on a matter of great urgency… and discretion. Come at once, and come alone.”

“The Ebon Blade has extracted the Lich- The Highlord from the battle in Icecrown. He is recovering in Acherus.”

“King Greymane, you shouldn’t remain out in the open like this. You’re too tempting a target.”

“Still, we need you in the throne room. There are matters of state that must be overseen until the King’s return.”

“I don’t question the High Exarch’s ability to defend the Alliance, but as a king yourself, don’t you think you should sit upon the throne?”

“Yes, your Majesty.”


I'm really happy to see some Alliance drama and inter-faction conflict for a change. We've seen that in faction focused stories its typically the side with the internal drama that gets a story and the other is just sort of there to alternately be victims and moral support to the drama one. And since this has nothing to do with the Horde causing issues it might even be story support without the baggage of another faction war. Maybe then both factions would get involved stories and the Horde wouldn't have to be stuck with another story about tearing itself apart for a change.

However I am worried for what it could potentially mean for night elves since they'd obviously side with Genn should things escalate the way this dialogue suggests it could.

Last edited by Insane Guy of Doom; 06-19-2020 at 09:16 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #342  
Old 06-20-2020, 01:38 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Admin
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,969

Default

Unless Genn does a complete 180, I don’t think he’d agree with Shaw. And if he did, I don’t think it would turn into a civil war upon Anduin’s return.

Both Shaw and Genn are far too loyal to Anduin to turn on him. I’d even say that Genn considers Anduin his son.
Reply With Quote
  #343  
Old 06-21-2020, 01:02 PM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

Arch-Druid
Reinhardt's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,060

Default

It's be line from Shaw and Greymane probably tells him no.
I don't think we are getting a civil war.
Reply With Quote
  #344  
Old 06-25-2020, 03:49 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

Time-Lost Proto Nerd
Insane Guy of Doom's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 10,009

Default

Calia is the new Forsaken leader. She tries to reason with Tyrande and Tyrande nearly starts a fight between the Alliance and Horde. Strangely Valeera (who has been nothing but loyal to Varian and now Anduin) sides with the Horde against the Alliance before Bolvar stops the faction leaders from coming to blows.



For some reason the picture won't embed so here's a link to my tweet with said picture.

Last edited by Insane Guy of Doom; 06-25-2020 at 03:54 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #345  
Old 06-26-2020, 06:15 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Admin
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,969

Default

While it's not definite proof, it is certainly looking that way. It would be funny if Tyrande were I've again responsible for driving a racial leader into the arms of the Horde. (At least last one Tyrande's words were justified. Calia really didn't deserve that.)

Valeera's reaction is likely a mistake, given that BFA has done a good job of showing that she is firmly aligned with Anduin/Stormwind.
Reply With Quote
  #346  
Old 06-26-2020, 11:14 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

Time-Lost Proto Nerd
Insane Guy of Doom's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 10,009

Default

Another strange Calia thing I noticed. She's friendly to Horde players but neutral to Alliance players, the same as Mekkatorque, who's friendly to Alliance players but neutral to Horde players.

Now I can't even get links to embed properly. What's wrong with SoL's posting? Is it a problem on my end? So you'll just have to look up the image comparison on my twitter.
Reply With Quote
  #347  
Old 07-03-2020, 02:09 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

Elune
Ruinshin's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 21,146

Default

I mean. Mekkatorque really shouldn't be hostile to the Horde at this point right?

King of the Mechagnomes means gobbos
__________________
Fucking Epic :X
Reply With Quote
  #348  
Old 07-04-2020, 02:05 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,527

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
King of the Mechagnomes means gobbos
Eh?
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lore, world of warcraft

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.