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  #7776  
Old 02-17-2019, 06:27 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Lawl don't kid yourself D, odds are 80% Saurfang gets the job. And much of those remaining 20% is Sylvanas staying in power for a few expansions.

Blizz is not very imaginative with their stories, if it walks like a duck... yeah.
A man can dream, thought.
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  #7777  
Old 02-17-2019, 07:08 PM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
Thematically speaking, Thrall appearing now would be a perfect to signal that the Horde is finding its spirit and purpose.
The Horde is dead, and Blizzard has killed it. How can you get past an entire faction committing genocide? The Horde has been tainted forever and nothing they can write can fix it, short of re-winding time so that the burning of Teldrassil never happened.

What is the heart of the Horde, its spirit and purpose? I don't care anymore, it deserves to be destroyed by the Alliance.
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  #7778  
Old 02-17-2019, 09:23 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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How can you get past an entire faction committing genocide?
That's Warcraft.
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  #7779  
Old 02-17-2019, 09:48 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Mungo View Post
The Horde is dead, and Blizzard has killed it. How can you get past an entire faction committing genocide? The Horde has been tainted forever and nothing they can write can fix it, short of re-winding time so that the burning of Teldrassil never happened.

What is the heart of the Horde, its spirit and purpose? I don't care anymore, it deserves to be destroyed by the Alliance.
And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.
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  #7780  
Old 02-18-2019, 07:02 AM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.
I hadn't thought of it that way. This has actually cheered me up more then anything else in months, thanks!
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  #7781  
Old 02-18-2019, 02:44 PM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.
That is a pretty cool way of looking at things. Well done!
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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.
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  #7782  
Old 02-18-2019, 03:05 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.
That's the Horde!
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  #7783  
Old 02-18-2019, 06:08 PM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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SHOULD be the Horde. You just described the Alliance in BFA though.
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  #7784  
Old 02-18-2019, 09:21 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is online now

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SHOULD be the Horde. You just described the Alliance in BFA though.
Uh... no. the Alliance can absolutely blame the Horde for wanting it dead.
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  #7785  
Old 02-19-2019, 12:26 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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SHOULD be the Horde. You just described the Alliance in BFA though.
Hardly. The Alliance does not have many warrior culture themes, and they generally do not enjoy combat and its challenges for the thrill of it. Furthermore, the Alliance is all about morality, self-righteousness, and blaming the other side.
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  #7786  
Old 02-19-2019, 01:50 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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Originally Posted by Melorandor View Post
SHOULD be the Horde. You just described the Alliance in BFA though.
Not exactly; the Alliance very much can blame the Horde for continually trying to kill them, and frankly a crapton of other native Azerothian races who've been rooted out of their ancestral homes and slaughtered en masse ever since the orcs set up shop on the planet can make the same claim.

The Alliance is comprised predominantly of old nations who established their borders centuries (or millennia) ago and haven't really been compelled to expand ever since, so it makes sense that the Alliance fights to stop the fighting and keep what they already have.

The Horde is basically the first truly expansionist, aggressively colonial empire to rise on Azeroth in ages. So naturally instead of just wanting the death and destruction to stop so they can live their lives unmolested, the Horde starts each of these land-grabbing wars with an eye toward kicking off the next one.

Even now, does anyone seriously think Sylvanas has aspirations of the Horde living in peace when the Alliance is gone? Do we really believe she's angling for a world where the whole Horde can prosper unmolested by the Alliance? Or is this war just prep for the next one, and the next one after that? More likely she expects her anticipated Scourging of Stormwind (and any other Alliance races her val'kyr can reanimate along the way) to provide her with the sheer numbers of undead she'll need to turn around once the Alliance is extinguished and eradicate the living races of the Horde as well when they're rendered no longer necessary to protect her, leaving her alone with the only allies she can really trust: undead people firmly under her control.

Last edited by ARM3481; 02-19-2019 at 02:32 AM..
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  #7787  
Old 02-19-2019, 04:56 AM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.
A nice thought but I can't get behind it knowing the reason we're in the current state we're in is due entirely to the piloting of forces beyond the player's control.

I don't care about the Alliance. I want to curb-stomp the malevolent forces within the Faction that's causing this in the first place.

It's no fun having to be saddled with the Idiot *And* the Villain ball at the same time. That's not a Challenge I care for-we've been there and done that. It's a stale plot and it needs to fucking die.
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  #7788  
Old 02-19-2019, 05:53 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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The player character isn't a tool to express the player's view in Warcraft.

It never was.

That may change in the future, but for now, it's far from being an Elder Scrolls type of game.

Wanting Warcraft to be something it is not will bring about nothing but suffering.
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  #7789  
Old 02-20-2019, 10:24 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
The player character isn't a tool to express the player's view in Warcraft.

It never was.

That may change in the future, but for now, it's far from being an Elder Scrolls type of game.

Wanting Warcraft to be something it is not will bring about nothing but suffering.
And as we all know, suffering leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to the Horde.
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  #7790  
Old 02-20-2019, 01:29 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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And as we all know, suffering leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to the Horde.
I still wish that Warcraft Adventures' lore contents became canon back in the day. Thrall the Necromancer Shaman was much cooler than Thrall the Thor Shaman.
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  #7791  
Old 02-20-2019, 06:39 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Necromancy is portrayed as dark, twisting, magic though?
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  #7792  
Old 02-23-2019, 12:22 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Necromancy is portrayed as dark, twisting, magic though?
Well, it's not. A certain brand is. As Krausus pointed out, magic to raise the dead is just the flip side to life magic. How it's used has a lot to do with it.

Like all magics, it's going to depend on how it's used on if it's evil or not, because that's how Blizzard wants to make magic.
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  #7793  
Old 02-23-2019, 12:35 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Well, it's not. A certain brand is. As Krausus pointed out, magic to raise the dead is just the flip side to life magic. How it's used has a lot to do with it.

Like all magics, it's going to depend on how it's used on if it's evil or not, because that's how Blizzard wants to make magic.
I must add that the auchenai are an example of "good" necromancers (before they god maddened and turned evil in the MU, of course).
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  #7794  
Old 02-23-2019, 06:22 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Necromancy doesn't necessarily have to be "evil". I know the strict definition in WoW is basically forcefully pushing unwilling souls into a corpse and powering it as your mind controlled slave, but there is a broader real world definition of necromancy that's as simple as being able to commune or speak with the dead and bargain with them for power (which could look like death magic). Shaman still have traces of this, since part of them is tied to ancestor worship and speaking with ancestors, plus some ghostly abilities, but it's far less emphasized than speaking with elementals and using their gifts.
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  #7795  
Old 02-23-2019, 07:13 PM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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There's a game called 'Phantom Brave' starring a girl named Marona, the sweetest little necromancer you'll ever meet. Spirits hang around her, and she can grant them a temporary body by 'confining' them in solid objects. In part of her battle cry, she even says: "Valiant phantoms, aid me in battle!" Probably the most positive portrayal of necromancy I've ever seen. Though she is hated and feared for her powers, at least initially.

It'd be neat if they did something like that for WoW.
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  #7796  
Old 02-26-2019, 06:29 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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I’ve long believed that the Orcs need to start communing with their ancestors again to truly return to their roots. If Necro-Thrall is part of that then I’m all for it. I like Orcish Necrolites.
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  #7797  
Old 02-26-2019, 07:03 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
Thematically speaking, Thrall appearing now would be a perfect to signal that the Horde is finding its spirit and purpose. He was the New Horde, and he should be the one to guide it back into its ideals.

However, I think he shouldn't be the Warchief. He should be a guide, a spiritual leader. If I were to choose, Baine should be warchief, but he would need to get some really big personal trial first, and then do something badass the likes only the greatest heroes of Warcraft have done, akin to Grom slaying Mannoroth or Varian sacrificing himself for the Alliance.
He'd had to do something for the Horde and to show he's willing to fight the Alliance, as well as redeem himself for his crimes against the tauren.

None of that is happening so Baine would just as bad as Sylvanas.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #7798  
Old 02-26-2019, 09:53 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is online now

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
Thematically speaking, Thrall appearing now would be a perfect to signal that the Horde is finding its spirit and purpose. He was the New Horde, and he should be the one to guide it back into its ideals.

However, I think he shouldn't be the Warchief. He should be a guide, a spiritual leader. If I were to choose, Baine should be warchief, but he would need to get some really big personal trial first, and then do something badass the likes only the greatest heroes of Warcraft have done, akin to Grom slaying Mannoroth or Varian sacrificing himself for the Alliance.
Thrall appearing now would signal that the Horde can only be non-evil and non-genocidal when they have a human groomed leader in charge.
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  #7799  
Old 02-26-2019, 11:17 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Thrall should undergo something he should have back in the Lord of the Clans, he should first start understing what the orcs truly are, a warrior culture, then accept it and forgo any sort of human thinking left in him. And then, he should become warchief himself.

Edit: To be completely fair, Warcraft III's Thrall actually seemed as understanding and accepting the orcs' warrior culture and not be particularly molded by the humans' morals. It wasn't until the circumstantial writing of World of Warcraft and Golden's modernist writing he turned into someone completely detached from the race he was supposed to lead.

Last edited by Marthen; 02-27-2019 at 12:18 AM..
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  #7800  
Old 02-26-2019, 11:56 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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But what constitutes "human thinking?" Because "orcish thinking" has repeatedly been shown to amount to "fractious, ignorant and divided until someone who's not an orc deceives them into becoming tools for death and destruction." The thing is, while it's most evident with Thrall, the "human" way of thinking (or at the very start, a similarly "eredar" way of thinking) is frankly the only way the Horde came to be and continues to persist at all.

Before Thrall and before Doomhammer, the orcs didn't make allies with non-orcs. Anyone who wasn't an orc, they either killed or only minimally engaged. Even as far back as the Second War the very idea of allying with non-orcs struck the rest of the orcs as strange when Doomhammer pursued it because it just plain wasn't the way they did things. Aligning with outsiders as allies rather than wary neighbors at best or hated enemies at worst was a bizarre, alien, and frankly non-orc idea to them.

For a leader to lead like a "true orc" so to speak, he'd have to basically get rid of anyone in the Horde who's not an orc and basically disband the Horde period, because the entire process of becoming the Horde and then recruiting other races into it was a massive departure from the traditional orcish way of thinking. It was their entire society being rearranged and rebuilt according to ideas that non-orcs conceived. From Thrall, to Doomhammer, to Gul'dan and Ner'zhul (as proxies of Kil'jaeden), the very existence of the Horde at all is a product of orcish culture being reconstructed and then directed by non-orcish ways of thinking.

Get rid of all that, and we're back to a bunch of disparate clans who only marginally tolerated outsiders, only meaningfully interacted with each other every two years at the Kosh'harg, and certainly weren't going to be any part of some unified Horde full of non-orcs.

So by wanting them to be led by someone who abandons non-orcish thinking to only be like an orc, what does that even mean? Since the dawn of the Horde on Draenor every iteration of orcish culture since then has technically been a warped deviation from the way orcs are naturally inclined to be.

Last edited by ARM3481; 02-27-2019 at 12:01 AM..
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