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Old 11-30-2017, 09:15 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Default How can the Horde have a legit case to fight/loath the Alliance now?

They're the Aggressors.

The likes of Garithos are dead or ostracized so they can't harp on him anymore.

The Horde hasn't been trying hard not to be hostile.

The Alliance accepted the Death Knights and Void Elves so it can't be bigotry (and it's not like the Horde are better).

Sylvanas knows she has hell waiting for herself and the rest of the Forsaken thanks to their actions. Despite this, she continues to condemn them instead of trying to follow a long-term win.

I ask both from an in-universe and out-of-one point. Unless the Horde are just villains now ala the Axis Powers.

Last edited by Cacofonix; 11-30-2017 at 09:17 AM..
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Old 11-30-2017, 06:59 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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Pretty much the only faction conflict has been Forsaken vs Gilneas, which is a breath of fresh fucking air (and some undead fumes) after Orcs vs Humans that has been playing WoW since forever.

Night elves are probably angry that the Nightborne joined Horde instead of Alliance (although a lot of that was Tyrande's fault).

I imagine there will be some Kul Tiras and Zandalar conflict. Maybe some draenei and orc, too, but I very much doubt we'll see that.
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Old 12-01-2017, 06:40 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Out-of-universe?

"HURR DURR, it's the World of WARcraft, bud, blood and war and death, YEEEEAAAH, don't like it go play farmville or sumthin', bring on the WAAAR, HEAVY METAL".

It's about that, really.
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Old 12-01-2017, 08:32 AM
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Horde and alliance make no sense anymore. Obsolete system. It's only sustained because game mechanics.
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Old 12-01-2017, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
Out-of-universe?

"HURR DURR, it's the World of WARcraft, bud, blood and war and death, YEEEEAAAH, don't like it go play farmville or sumthin', bring on the WAAAR, HEAVY METAL".

It's about that, really.
That, and schizophrenic pendulum of "we have to work together", adorned with popculture references, covered in layers of "creative borrowing" and cheap melodrama.
Oh, and, it seems, Blizzard's new gimmick about "balance of light and dark" should be accounted for, too.
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:04 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Shekinah View Post
Pretty much the only faction conflict has been Forsaken vs Gilneas, which is a breath of fresh fucking air (and some undead fumes) after Orcs vs Humans that has been playing WoW since forever.

Night elves are probably angry that the Nightborne joined Horde instead of Alliance (although a lot of that was Tyrande's fault).

I imagine there will be some Kul Tiras and Zandalar conflict. Maybe some draenei and orc, too, but I very much doubt we'll see that.
Honestly, I don't see how it's Tyrande's fault.

It makes Thalryssa seem SUPER thin skinned and petty.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:08 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Honestly, I don't see how it's Tyrande's fault.

It makes Thalryssa seem SUPER thin skinned and petty.
Unfortunately it comes across an awful lot like they're literally taking the kneejerk reasoning of the pettier Horde players and making it the lore reasoning for the Nightborne choice of allegiance.

Tyrande expressed completely justified concerns about a group of magic-addicted Highborne who'd previously abandoned the rest of Azeroth 10,000 years ago while the other night elves fought, then outright aided the Legion during this latest war, so apparently the blood of every night elf man, woman and child killed by the Horde and their new allies going forward is on her hands now for daring to speak her mind.

Then Liadrin accuses the night elves of hiding from the world for all that time...as justification for the elves who hid from the world in a literal bubble being better. The hell? Can they at least try to add one race to the Horde without using contrived writing to shoehorn them in? Literally none of the additions since WC3 have belonged in the Horde, and they seem committed to maintaining that standard of lazy mediocrity going forward.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:26 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Unfortunately it comes across an awful lot like they're literally taking the kneejerk reasoning of the pettier Horde players and making it the lore reasoning for the Nightborne choice of allegiance.

Tyrande expressed completely justified concerns about a group of magic-addicted Highborne who'd previously abandoned the rest of Azeroth 10,000 years ago while the other night elves fought, then outright aided the Legion during this latest war, so apparently the blood of every night elf man, woman and child killed by the Horde and their new allies going forward is on her hands now for daring to speak her mind.

Then Liadrin accuses the night elves of hiding from the world for all that time...as justification for the elves who hid from the world in a literal bubble being better. The hell? Can they at least try to add one race to the Horde without using contrived writing to shoehorn them in? Literally none of the additions since WC3 have belonged in the Horde, and they seem committed to maintaining that standard of lazy mediocrity going forward.
LMAO now take a step back and watch how real life politics reasonings truly are.

From my experience (my country) they're very similar: a faulty-logic excuse to not say "I like you and I don't like the other guy. Just that".
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:26 AM
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Also, this is a genuine quote from Thalyssra that was datamined:
Good luck, $p. As for me, I am going to test my skill in Ashenvale. For the Horde!.

It's completely out of character. These people just helped her save her city. The blood elves have a lot in common with you so joining them makes sense. But turning so suddenly on the night elves doesn't.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:45 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Unfortunately it comes across an awful lot like they're literally taking the kneejerk reasoning of the pettier Horde players and making it the lore reasoning for the Nightborne choice of allegiance.

Tyrande expressed completely justified concerns about a group of magic-addicted Highborne who'd previously abandoned the rest of Azeroth 10,000 years ago while the other night elves fought, then outright aided the Legion during this latest war, so apparently the blood of every night elf man, woman and child killed by the Horde and their new allies going forward is on her hands now for daring to speak her mind.

Then Liadrin accuses the night elves of hiding from the world for all that time...as justification for the elves who hid from the world in a literal bubble being better. The hell? Can they at least try to add one race to the Horde without using contrived writing to shoehorn them in? Literally none of the additions since WC3 have belonged in the Horde, and they seem committed to maintaining that standard of lazy mediocrity going forward.
Goblins fit but yeah this was a very weak way to add Nightborne.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:09 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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That, and schizophrenic pendulum of "we have to work together", adorned with popculture references, covered in layers of "creative borrowing" and cheap melodrama.
Oh, and, it seems, Blizzard's new gimmick about "balance of light and dark" should be accounted for, too.
Oh yeah, the Balance thing. It grates me, really. All of a sudden, the freaking VOID is Misunderstood™ and necessary in order to combat the "Tyranny of the Light".

I realize that I am going a bit from speculation here but... Come one. Blizzard is predictable.

(A bit off-topic, but I'm afraid this partial reboot of the Star Wars franchise will do away with "The Dark Side is bad and there's no way around it" thing and try to force "Balance" down our throats yet again).

Last edited by Patrick_C; 12-01-2017 at 11:11 AM..
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:11 AM
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The night elves didn't even hide. They were all over the place. Killing satyrs. Guarding the Emerald Dream. Planting the great trees (though that backfired). Fixing Val'sharah after it burned down. Some stuff.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:17 AM
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Oh yeah, the Balance thing. It grates me, really. All of a sudden, the freaking VOID is Misunderstood™ and necessary in order to combat the "Tyranny of the Light".

I realize that I am going a bit from speculation here but... Come one. Blizzard is predictable.

(A bit off-topic, but I'm afraid this partial reboot of the Star Wars franchise will do away with "The Dark Side is bad and there's no way around it" thing and try to force "Balance" down our throats yet again).
That's been around since BC, with D'ore saying "without the void, the Light cannot exist."
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:20 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Unfortunately it comes across an awful lot like they're literally taking the kneejerk reasoning of the pettier Horde players and making it the lore reasoning for the Nightborne choice of allegiance.

Tyrande expressed completely justified concerns about a group of magic-addicted Highborne who'd previously abandoned the rest of Azeroth 10,000 years ago while the other night elves fought, then outright aided the Legion during this latest war, so apparently the blood of every night elf man, woman and child killed by the Horde and their new allies going forward is on her hands now for daring to speak her mind.

Then Liadrin accuses the night elves of hiding from the world for all that time...as justification for the elves who hid from the world in a literal bubble being better. The hell? Can they at least try to add one race to the Horde without using contrived writing to shoehorn them in? Literally none of the additions since WC3 have belonged in the Horde, and they seem committed to maintaining that standard of lazy mediocrity going forward.
She stereotyped the nightborne as being as bad as the ones they rebelled against, and it turns out that even after they won, she still doesn’t trust them. What would you have them do?
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:52 AM
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She stereotyped the nightborne as being as bad as the ones they rebelled against, and it turns out that even after they won, she still doesn’t trust them. What would you have them do?
How about not pick a side in a pointless war that doesn't matter? You're phrasing it as if the only choice she has is to join one of two pathetic factions who only recently proved too weak to protect anyone and help fight in their latest irrelevant pissing contest.

But you're right, clearly she should subordinate her people to an authoritarian military dictatorship that wrecks the planet wherever it goes and demands slavish obedience under implicit threat of violence and/or death if anyone steps out of line.

That's not remotely like joining the Burning Legion or anything.
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Old 12-01-2017, 12:36 PM
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Oh man... those dirty night elves hide in barrow dens and trees...

But the Alliance has too many walls...

We have hid behind the dome for far too long...

Let us try the Horde: They are more outdoorsy.
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Old 12-01-2017, 01:09 PM
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How about not pick a side in a pointless war that doesn't matter? You're phrasing it as if the only choice she has is to join one of two pathetic factions who only recently proved too weak to protect anyone and help fight in their latest irrelevant pissing contest.

But you're right, clearly she should subordinate her people to an authoritarian military dictatorship that wrecks the planet wherever it goes and demands slavish obedience under implicit threat of violence and/or death if anyone steps out of line.

That's not remotely like joining the Burning Legion or anything.
Don’t put words in my mouth. They’re joining due to a kinship with the belves. Will it end poorly due to Sylvanas? Probably, but it’s not like they know of the Horde and Forsaken’s history. They might be joining a war, but the war is not why they’re joining.
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Old 12-01-2017, 04:49 PM
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I just wanna ask why the hell is Ji Firepaw still with the Horde anyway? The dude should either be neutral on the turtle island or even Alliance to be with Aysa after the way the Horde treated him in MoP. Blizzard should have replaced him with a new Pandaren or something.

As for Thalryssa, I hope some Alliance characters will point out how much of a dick she is and will do something like place a bounty on her head. But alas I know nobody will say a thing.

Let's be honest here, the only character that makes it possible for this war to happen is Sylvanas at this point.
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Old 12-01-2017, 04:50 PM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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That's been around since BC, with D'ore saying "without the void, the Light cannot exist."
That can be interpreted as "The Void is a regrettable but inevitable part of life".

What we have now is "it's well and good that there is Void, because Void is something we need".

It's different. The tone is different.
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Old 12-01-2017, 07:22 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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That can be interpreted as "The Void is a regrettable but inevitable part of life".

What we have now is "it's well and good that there is Void, because Void is something we need".

It's different. The tone is different.
It comes up in other dialogue. A'dal refers to creatures of the Void as necessary to the universe, though they need to be kept in check. The Cult of the Forgotten Shadow has been about the balance since the RPG days, and every time it's even vaguely been referenced ingame.

The tone isn't different. It's simply been explained in more detail. The tone was never "regrettable but inevitable" it was "regrettably necessary". As in, more "As terrible as the Void is, getting rid of it entirely would be worse. So we should focus on keeping it under control."

As for potential tyrannies of the Light? It's been made pretty clear for some time that the Light doesn't have a sapience. It's not God. Neither is the Void Satan. These are religions of Divine Humanism. The Light had never made moral judgements before. Those were always made by people using the Light.

The Light has certain tendencies, and we've seen those tendencies portrayed in an evil manner before. Even one of Turalyon's greatest victories was shown to have been achieved through blatant doublethink, rather than any kind of purer form of faith.

The idea that wielders of the Light have been tyrants before isn't strange. We've seen this firsthand since Vanilla. That this may be taking place on a grander and more cosmic scale is nothing too strange.

And if the Light's tendencies do contain forms of evil, then there are probably more positive tendencies in some aspects of the Void. The Void isn't just one guy.
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Old 12-01-2017, 08:11 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Good luck, $p. As for me, I am going to test my skill in Ashenvale. For the Horde!
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:38 PM
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as a blood elf player I have many reasons to want to fight against the void elves
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:53 PM
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as a blood elf player I have many reasons to want to fight against the void elves
That's like 5 people.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:22 PM
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as a blood elf player I have many reasons to want to fight against the void elves
Like what?
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Old 12-02-2017, 12:59 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Sylvanas knows she has hell waiting for herself and the rest of the Forsaken thanks to their actions. Despite this, she continues to condemn them instead of trying to follow a long-term win.

I ask both from an in-universe and out-of-one point. Unless the Horde are just villains now ala the Axis Powers.
Honestly, who the fuck knows by now? Why is Sylvanas Warchief? Does she actually have that many Horde fans? I'm a Forsaken fan, and I know she sure as hell shouldn't be Warchief unless you decide that's the kind of leader the Horde needs. A fraud.

When it comes to the Forsaken, it's pretty obvious Sylvanas doesn't really care about them. But pretending to care about them fulfills all of their needs. Her bullshit gives them a sense of purpose and a feeling of acceptance, even though it's been shown she generally sees them all as disgusting and pathetic. But as long as she's forced to pretend and cater to them like that, it's almost as good as if she actually does care.

So, is this what the Horde needs? Someone who doesn't give a shit about the Horde, but still has to act like they do and cater to it despite having no personal connection to its ideals? I mean, I guess that's better than Garrosh whose ideals fractured the Horde. If he was just a sociopath, he might have been a better ruler. Even if he was just a liar who said all the right things.

Right now, the Horde is following the lie of a Warchief that gives a damn about them. Maybe all the other lies are good enough to give the Horde what it needs. But that kind of cynical attitude seems more fitting for the Forsaken. But I guess everyone is following Sylvanas now.

So, welcome to the amoral psychopath club. We've got a wonderful game where your faction leader pretends to care about you, and you pretend to be loyal to her. As long as you keep pretending, the game goes on and it may as well be real. But only a fool fails to realize it's a pretense. It's a convenient lie for us all. So go salute the Queen when you see her, follow her into battle when she shouts "For the Horde!", and try not to shoot her in the back of the head when she turns her back.

Social cohesion is useful. The pretense of common purpose is useful. There is strength in numbers and a strength in common cause, even if it's all a lie. Like the idea the Forsaken are your friends. But as long as we pretend it's not a lie, it's as true as it needs to be.

And that's how I deal with what the Horde has become. There was a time it was said the Orcs wouldn't accept a non-Orc leader. Now they have one fundamentally culturally incompatible. Their pride has been absolutely broken. Their ideals have been broken, the ethos that they live by. This is good. You don't need ideals. Just put on a false smile and remember the Alliance is the enemy. We can make up reasons for it, but the real reason is that they could potentially be a threat somewhere down the line and we've already accepted we're just pretending to have ideals.

The Horde is a family. We don't really get along. The romance has died, and what's left is a husk pushing itself forward. But honestly, admitting to that would be worse. Sure, I barely feel the bond between Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls anymore. The Forsaken and Blood Elves don't seem to have very good relations either.

But fuck it. Let's keep this circus going and parade around the corpse. The Horde is dead. What exists now is just the reanimated remnants. You serve the Banshee Queen now. The Horde is dead, and I guess that makes us all Forsaken together. You get used to it.

We're all a bunch of amoral bastards who barely give a shit about eachother, but we're our bunch of amoral bastards and we'll probably do what benefits ourselves as amoral bastards. At least until we recover enough dignity and pride to actually believe in anything again, and not just pretend to.

Last edited by Krakhed; 12-02-2017 at 01:04 AM..
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