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Old 09-12-2016, 08:22 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Default How do you rate Chris Metzen as the loremaster?

I think many of his creative ideas were awesome, far much better than the current guy. But there were too many retcons which caused great inconsistency throughout the plot and the characterizaion. Few of his ideas/characters have reached their full potential.

Also he favored some his "avatar" characters wayyyy too much and wasted a lot of popular characters. Even superhero comics know to expand their popular characters' potential . Which is why we saw Illidan being brought back now.
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Old 09-12-2016, 08:35 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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Overwatch was his best work.
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Old 09-12-2016, 09:32 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Yeah Overwatch and Warcraft 3 were some of his good work. Classic WoW also did a good job at worldbuilding.

To be fair, I don't think he had much control over the story from Mists onwards. That's probably why he decided to leave in the first place.
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Old 09-12-2016, 09:53 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Yeah Overwatch and Warcraft 3 were some of his good work. Classic WoW also did a good job at worldbuilding.

To be fair, I don't think he had much control over the story from Mists onwards. That's probably why he decided to leave in the first place.
WOW lore had already started to decay way before MoP. BC was probably the worst story.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:00 PM
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:12 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Maybe Bill Roper had done a lot to WC lore as well, the story just went downhill after he had left.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:50 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I rate 8/8, would masturbate.

Seriously though between a 3 and a 4, lets go with 4 since he is likeable guy, 4/5 it is.

Also anyone else wonder if there might be some powerplays high up in Blizz that pushed Metzen out? Probably not they still seem like a band of bros but who knows.
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Old 09-12-2016, 11:05 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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I feel like he may have at one time been an asset, I can't help but those days ended a long time ago.

Cata no doubt had a lot of (bad) input from him, given how much terrible Thrall and Malfurion stuff went on. Those two being his baby.

And part of me can't help but think that we got WoD from him one day bursting into a meeting with a big pair of Hulk hands and a string of red christmas ball ornaments strung around his neck ranting incoherently about orcs and humans and how they need to bring the original warcraft before passing out in a crack induced haze.
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Old 09-12-2016, 11:06 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
I rate 8/8, would masturbate.

Seriously though between a 3 and a 4, lets go with 4 since he is likeable guy, 4/5 it is.

Also anyone else wonder if there might be some powerplays high up in Blizz that pushed Metzen out? Probably not they still seem like a band of bros but who knows.
I still think BC was a huge slap on the face of lore. We got the most famous and ridiculous retcon/revamp even to this day. Illidan, the supposed antagonist got his spotlight stolen, zero interaction with his brother/Tyrande. Kael was smashed into a 200% villain as hard as they could.

Maybe Metzen could find excuse for the other xpcs, but the shit of BC is mostly his fault.


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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
I feel like he may have at one time been an asset, I can't help but those days ended a long time ago.

Cata no doubt had a lot of (bad) input from him, given how much terrible Thrall and Malfurion stuff went on. Those two being his baby.

And part of me can't help but think that we got WoD from him one day bursting into a meeting with a big pair of Hulk hands and a string of red christmas ball ornaments strung around his neck ranting incoherently about orcs and humans and how they need to bring the original warcraft before passing out in a crack induced haze.
Cata was not as bad as BC.

Last edited by Slowpokeking; 09-12-2016 at 11:08 PM..
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Old 09-13-2016, 12:25 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Trickster View Post
To be fair, I don't think he had much control over the story from Mists onwards. That's probably why he decided to leave in the first place.
I don't think he even had that much of control as far as the Classic World of Warcraft goes. I remember some Blizzard talks about how he did not want the Night Elves to be a part of the Alliance, and how he wanted the druids to stay exclusively elven, yet the great powers wished otherwise.
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Old 09-13-2016, 12:47 AM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
I still think BC was a huge slap on the face of lore. We got the most famous and ridiculous retcon/revamp even to this day. Illidan, the supposed antagonist got his spotlight stolen, zero interaction with his brother/Tyrande. Kael was smashed into a 200% villain as hard as they could.

Maybe Metzen could find excuse for the other xpcs, but the shit of BC is mostly his fault.




Cata was not as bad as BC.
The Draenei retcon actually expanded the lore and was cool. Kael'thas's heel turn made sense. Illidan wasn't helping him out, Kil'jaeden offered a solution and fel magic warped his sense of decency. People bitch about this way too much. Would have been nice if he was redeemed but his heel turn was not out of nowhere

In it's own way the lore has gotten somewhat better. Roper had his problems too and some of the stuff in later stuff was cool

Last edited by Ol'Yoggy; 09-13-2016 at 12:49 AM..
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Old 09-13-2016, 12:50 AM
Shanic Shanic is offline

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It's hard to hate the world building, even if stories fall short. And some of the stories are still higher than most other video gaming stories, even at their worst.

5/5. Great DM, would rock out in his dungeons again.
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Old 09-13-2016, 01:15 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I never liked any lore that he had control over. WCIII era lore still makes me cry a little.

Yet he seems nice, and I wish him a happy retirement.

EDIT: May the soul of his legacy be divided in half, with the good being celebrated and the bad being siphoned and weaponized into shadow spears.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 09-13-2016 at 01:19 AM..
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  #14  
Old 09-13-2016, 01:49 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I never liked any lore that he had control over.
You don't like the lore of Warcraft II? I am not sure how much control he had over the "story", but the world building was all his.
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Old 09-13-2016, 02:03 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
You don't like the lore of Warcraft II? I am not sure how much control he had over the "story", but the world building was all his.
Difficulty believing it was more than his drawings and a suggestion or two. Maybe he came up with the "story" of a war, but there were so many things he... he just never really seemed to know they existed.

Of course, some have trouble seeing modern Metzen as the same man who made WCIII, so who knows.

. . .

It's like listening to a Monty Python actor misquote Holy Grail (which happens). It's hard to fathom.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 09-13-2016 at 02:15 AM..
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Old 09-13-2016, 02:54 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Difficulty believing it was more than his drawings and a suggestion or two.

Of course, some have trouble seeing modern Metzen as the same man who made WCIII, so who knows.
With all due respect, don't you think that might be your bias speaking there? You see Metzen as the man who destroyed the Warcraft you once loved, so it is natural for you to find it hard for him to be the man who also shaped it and created it. But is it really supported by any actual evidence?

Many Blizzard interviews stated it was Metzen who created the geography of Azeroth in Warcraft II. And there are many old concept maps bearing his mark that support that claim. And you'd find many references on how he made up the orcish clans, human nations an even the paladins, as well as their lore. And according to the credits, he alone was behind the story and design, and he was one of the two behind the scenario design.

Really, most of the evidence at hand points out that something between 1995 and 1999 heavily altered his outlook, which in turn altered his writing, rather than that he was not really involved in Warcraft II all that much. Some pointed out to a drug addiction, either his own or of some close relative/friend.

PS: Speaking of geography, it's not like the changes induced in Warcraft III were done at Metzen's whim. They were actually done so that the maps shown in Warcraft III would be as close as possible to what was coming in World of Warcraft, something especially evident when looking at certain World of Warcraft concept maps or very early pre-Alpha maps. Sure, the geography of World of Warcraft in the end did end up rather different from that of Warcraft III, but that was because of the technical difficulties that arose well after Warcraft III was out.

And for all we know, Metzen formerly intended the east to be as close to Warcraft II as possible, which can be best seen on this old 1999 map he made for Warcraft III.

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Old 09-13-2016, 06:48 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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It's no secret that I love WoW in its current form and geography, but that map still fascinates me! It's awesome in its own way. What I don't get is why there are two kalimdors. Two different possibilities for the time?

I'd like to see a parallel universe in which they decided to stick with this :p

--------

On topic: I rate him 6 bananas out of 7 direhorns. No, but really, as a creator of all this universe he's a 10/10. Maybe he got it wrong sometimes, but it's nothing I'll get overly mad about. A good 8/10 as of now.

Last edited by Ethenil; 09-13-2016 at 06:55 AM..
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Old 09-13-2016, 08:09 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
With all due respect, don't you think that might be your bias speaking there? You see Metzen as the man who destroyed the Warcraft you once loved, so it is natural for you to find it hard for him to be the man who also shaped it and created it. But is it really supported by any actual evidence?

Many Blizzard interviews stated it was Metzen who created the geography of Azeroth in Warcraft II. And there are many old concept maps bearing his mark that support that claim. And you'd find many references on how he made up the orcish clans, human nations an even the paladins, as well as their lore. And according to the credits, he alone was behind the story and design, and he was one of the two behind the scenario design.

Really, most of the evidence at hand points out that something between 1995 and 1999 heavily altered his outlook, which in turn altered his writing, rather than that he was not really involved in Warcraft II all that much. Some pointed out to a drug addiction, either his own or of some close relative/friend.

PS: Speaking of geography, it's not like the changes induced in Warcraft III were done at Metzen's whim. They were actually done so that the maps shown in Warcraft III would be as close as possible to what was coming in World of Warcraft, something especially evident when looking at certain World of Warcraft concept maps or very early pre-Alpha maps. Sure, the geography of World of Warcraft in the end did end up rather different from that of Warcraft III, but that was because of the technical difficulties that arose well after Warcraft III was out.

And for all we know, Metzen formerly intended the east to be as close to Warcraft II as possible, which can be best seen on this old 1999 map he made for Warcraft III.
It's just hard. But yes, it's probably also hard for WCIII fans to reconcile that the mind behind WoD was the same mind that gave them WCIII. And there's no denying it.

EDIT: People look at the Star Wars prequels and start to wonder how much of the original trilogy was George Lucas, even though he was undeniably the driving force behind both. That sort of thing.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 09-13-2016 at 08:15 AM..
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Old 09-13-2016, 08:49 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
It's just hard. But yes, it's probably also hard for WCIII fans to reconcile that the mind behind WoD was the same mind that gave them WCIII. And there's no denying it.

EDIT: People look at the Star Wars prequels and start to wonder how much of the original trilogy was George Lucas, even though he was undeniably the driving force behind both. That sort of thing.
I know. I didn't mean to chastise you, but to simply provide some insight.


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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
It's no secret that I love WoW in its current form and geography, but that map still fascinates me! It's awesome in its own way. What I don't get is why there are two kalimdors. Two different possibilities for the time?
Either two possible versions, or the second one is supposed to represent a rough map of ancient Kalimdor. See, as outlined by those "Sunken Lands" borders, ancient Kalimdor was not formerly supposed to be some super-continent, but rather a normal sized continent that turned a small sized continent.

By the way, that second Kalimdor has a territory named "Pandaren Lands" in the far south. Yes, the Pandaren were supposed to be a part of the Warcraft universe as far as 1999. Eat that Pandaria haters.

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I'd like to see a parallel universe in which they decided to stick with this :p
So do I (and I think many other Warcraft I and II fans), yet it ultimately, that would require someone who;

A) Understands and knows the world, themes, events, characters and metaphysics of Warcraft II deeply, as well as has some passion for these things.

B) Has acces to all the old Blizzard concepts and material, as to know what they were aiming at there formerly.

C) Is a good writer himself.
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Old 09-13-2016, 09:11 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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The Draenei retcon actually expanded the lore and was cool. Kael'thas's heel turn made sense. Illidan wasn't helping him out, Kil'jaeden offered a solution and fel magic warped his sense of decency. People bitch about this way too much. Would have been nice if he was redeemed but his heel turn was not out of nowhere

In it's own way the lore has gotten somewhat better. Roper had his problems too and some of the stuff in later stuff was cool
It dealt a great blow to the consistency and the new Draenei is so Mary Sueish.
The damage is much bigger than its benefit and it could have been done without retcon/revamp.

Take a close look then say Illidan didn't help, Illidan offered him the perfect solution.

Last edited by Slowpokeking; 09-13-2016 at 09:18 AM..
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Old 09-13-2016, 10:00 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Pfff Marthen, you never come off as chastising.
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Old 09-13-2016, 10:24 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post

Yeah that map looks more like a sunken continent than what we have now.
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Old 09-13-2016, 10:34 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I don't really know what exactly he's responsible for, so I can't really rate what he did. I do think that he's a bit overrated by his fanboys, though.
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Old 09-13-2016, 12:23 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Holy smokes! I can't believe I missed this on the map.

KALIMDOR IS MELEE ISLAND!!!!



Mt. Hyjal is a little west of the Swordmaster's cabin.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 09-13-2016 at 12:25 PM..
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Old 09-13-2016, 12:31 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
It dealt a great blow to the consistency and the new Draenei is so Mary Sueish.
The damage is much bigger than its benefit and it could have been done without retcon/revamp.

Take a close look then say Illidan didn't help, Illidan offered him the perfect solution.
Hardly. They were contemptuous of their broken brethren, have issues letting go of their past and were the few members able to escape becoming evil. In all honesty it was more epic, more tragic and more grand
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