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Old 10-25-2019, 10:20 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Default Why Daelin is largely to blame for Garrosh's rise to power

You know I've seen a lot of Daelin fanboys on this forum try to say that he should have totally just committed genocide and killed all the orcs. Thing is.....Those people are idiots and ignore a lot of key context.

Even leaving aside that there are Orcs who have proven to be noble (Thrall, the Saurfang Clan, Golluck Rockfist, Gakorg, Grunn'holde, Gorganna, Etrigg, Shagara, Malgar, Rexxar, Drek'Thar, Geyah, Jaruk Bloodfyre) or at the very least not easy to pin down (Durotan and Draka could have done more to oppose the genocide but ultimately Durotan DID try to move against Gul'dan even if he got murdered for it, Gar'thok is shown not to like the alliance but still rises against Garrosh, Nazgrel flat out hates Garrosh but follows out of a sense of loyalty to the position even if the guy in charge is a psycho, Grom did a lot of stupid things but he does regret his options and in the final key moment he ultimately chooses to fight Mannoroth rather than succumb a third time etc) both of which prove the idea that orcs are intrinsically or genetically evil is.....well idiotic, they ignore something. Context.

Most of the orcs alive today are the children of those who actually committed war crimes. They didn't actively take part in those crimes and yet they were STILL beaten shat on and forced to live in their own vomit. That's going to breed anger and resentment no matter how you spin it, so many orcs are already going to have a lot of anger against the alliance (hell that's Burx's freudian excuse in Cycle of Hatred). In spite of that they STILL try to coexist with the Alliance after Hyjal. By all accounts they were honoring the truce with Jaina Proudmore in the aftermath and things were if not happy utopia kumbayah reasonably civil........and than Daelin suddenly appeared, launching unprovoked attacks the whole shebang. He also tried to lure Thrall in under a flag of truce to kill him (which again considering that's what Orgrim did to Lothar pre retcon is the HEIGHT of hypocrisy), and shamelessly occupied his own daughter's kingdom to launch his war even though there were much more pressing matters (the scourge was running rampant for instance and refugees were dying.) Notably even AFTER Thrall and the orcs took Theramoore (which would have been the PERFECT time to completely stamp Theramore out forever with no difficulty) they still withdrew peacefully and allowed the Alliance government to be reestablished.

Even after Daelin died this sent a message to a lot of orcs. It doesn't matter how hard you try to change your ways. We will never forgive you and we will always try to kill you. So some orcs naturally concluded that the only way to survive was to kill the alliance first. That his renegades were still operating until the Cataclysm sure as shit didn't help matters.

There were other factors as well (when the alliance cut off trade in the aftermath of the Wrathgate it created mass starvation, the cataclysm lowered the amount of resources exponentially, Varian declaring his intent to attack even AFTER the Horde cleaned house and took down Varimathras, and yes certain elements of Orcish culture) but Daelin's actions were arguably the spark that lit the fuse. At the very least it was the first in a LONG line of tinder and gunpowder.

So no. Daelin wasn't a visionary. He was an idiot whose stupidity directly paved the way for Garrosh Hellscream's rise to power. Frankly the world would be better off if he'd sunk in the maelstrom.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:00 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Truth. Daelin wasn't right, he was fucking wrong as hell.
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Old 11-13-2019, 11:27 AM
Triceron Triceron is offline

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If you completely wipe out an enemy, then there's no question about the enemy ever doing anything to harm you again. That's the goal of eradicating the Orcs.

It may be completely stupid since there are many examples of good Orcs; but just one bloodthirsty Orc was able to cause extreme devastation to Theramore and all its citizens, as well as potentially have killed the future king of Stormwind and caused countless Alliance deaths. Let's not forget that the existence of the Horde is the reason Sylvanas was able to engage the '4th war'.

In terms of Daelin's goals and looking at current events in retrospect, he had a point with dismantling the Horde and killing the Orcs. If WC2 ended with the Orcs completely wiped out, we wouldn't have any Warcraft sequels. The Alliance would remain on Azeroth as it always had.

From there, the story goes two ways - either it remains in peace, or it gets threatened by a new 3rd party threat (Scourge, Old God, Legion). Without the Horde to provide a reason to maintain an active military (the whole theme of Mists of Pandaria), we'd probably see a repeat of the Fall of Lordaeron.

Last edited by Triceron; 11-13-2019 at 11:32 AM..
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Old 11-13-2019, 02:12 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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It depends on what view you are from, the world or humans.

The main conflict had switched from "fighting world threat X" to "faction war" so it has changed.
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Old 11-14-2019, 01:36 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
If you completely wipe out an enemy, then there's no question about the enemy ever doing anything to harm you again. That's the goal of eradicating the Orcs.

It may be completely stupid since there are many examples of good Orcs; but just one bloodthirsty Orc was able to cause extreme devastation to Theramore and all its citizens, as well as potentially have killed the future king of Stormwind and caused countless Alliance deaths. Let's not forget that the existence of the Horde is the reason Sylvanas was able to engage the '4th war'.

In terms of Daelin's goals and looking at current events in retrospect, he had a point with dismantling the Horde and killing the Orcs. If WC2 ended with the Orcs completely wiped out, we wouldn't have any Warcraft sequels. The Alliance would remain on Azeroth as it always had.

From there, the story goes two ways - either it remains in peace, or it gets threatened by a new 3rd party threat (Scourge, Old God, Legion). Without the Horde to provide a reason to maintain an active military (the whole theme of Mists of Pandaria), we'd probably see a repeat of the Fall of Lordaeron.
That is why I had made the Doomhammer Was Right caption to troll people who said that way back when. It is the same thinking but reversed. If you kill all of the Alliance there is peace... except you know, kind of Hitlerian that.

If the Horde was slaughtered the Alliance would probably turn in on itself as people without enemies usually do. Ner'zul's Horde would still come back in through the DP, the Legion would still be scheming, etc, etc. History would largely turn out the same probably, as you say. We do have Bronze dragons claiming that without the Horde the world would fall to demons during Hyjal however.
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Old 11-14-2019, 02:00 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
If the Horde was slaughtered the Alliance would probably turn in on itself as people without enemies usually do.
This always struck me as kind of ridiculous honestly, ever since the CoT suggested as much to justify us making sure the Dark Portal opens. It'd be one thing if Azeroth's human history had been rife with internecine warfare and conflict, but it wasn't. The old tribes - which had been largely scattered across the northern landmass and too occupied with troll raids to start trouble with each other - banded together, helped Quel'thalas beat the trolls, then gradually split up over the centuries without a bunch of wars of secession or anything, and for generations none of the human kingdoms showed any interest in starting wars with each other. There basically hadn't been any conflicts of note between the human kingdoms the whole time they existed, and the only time wars seemed to occur for them was when a bunch of hostile nonhumans (namely trolls and gnolls) built up an army and attacked.

Yet suddenly when it comes to the Horde, we're told Azeroth's humans are retroactively just like real-world humans who can't let more than a few years go by in the absence of a foreign invasion without finding some other excuse to murder each other with armies. Despite that never previously being shown to be the case with Azeroth's humans. If they were that prone to warring against each other, they wouldn't have been sitting on the same Seven Kingdoms with the same territories for hundreds of years. It's like we're expected to just spontaneously apply real-world logic to this one sticking point when frankly most of Azeroth's history is comprised of civilizations - including humans - predominantly existing for centuries at a time dominated by generations-long spans of relative peace broken only by specific catastrophic eruptions of violence generally involving hostilities from other species.

Last edited by ARM3481; 11-14-2019 at 02:14 AM..
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  #7  
Old 11-14-2019, 09:03 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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They didn't? I mean pretty sure it was never stated but had to have happened. Did Chronicles directly rule the possibility out?

Strom seems to have just crumbled over time but that does not rule out wars of independence, just makes them likely and likely to succeed. Medieval world is full of all kinds of warfare, seems odd that humans of Azeroth would live in perfect harmony for thousands of years.

So for those reasons given a lack of a direct fact to the opposite I just assumed they must have fought.
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Old 11-16-2019, 02:34 PM
Xarthat Xarthat is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
If you completely wipe out an enemy, then there's no question about the enemy ever doing anything to harm you again. That's the goal of eradicating the Orcs.

It may be completely stupid since there are many examples of good Orcs; but just one bloodthirsty Orc was able to cause extreme devastation to Theramore and all its citizens, as well as potentially have killed the future king of Stormwind and caused countless Alliance deaths. Let's not forget that the existence of the Horde is the reason Sylvanas was able to engage the '4th war'.

In terms of Daelin's goals and looking at current events in retrospect, he had a point with dismantling the Horde and killing the Orcs. If WC2 ended with the Orcs completely wiped out, we wouldn't have any Warcraft sequels. The Alliance would remain on Azeroth as it always had.

From there, the story goes two ways - either it remains in peace, or it gets threatened by a new 3rd party threat (Scourge, Old God, Legion). Without the Horde to provide a reason to maintain an active military (the whole theme of Mists of Pandaria), we'd probably see a repeat of the Fall of Lordaeron.
By that logic, all races must be wiped out. Because every race has at least one bad member. Therefore, to prevent any of them from harming anyone again, all life must be wiped out.
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Old 11-22-2019, 11:06 AM
Triceron Triceron is offline

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Originally Posted by Xarthat View Post
By that logic, all races must be wiped out. Because every race has at least one bad member. Therefore, to prevent any of them from harming anyone again, all life must be wiped out.
Well that's not logic, that's just taking something to the furthest extreme. That's twisting my words.

When we're talking about a war involving repelling invaders from another world, then we're not talking about 'every race has at least one bad member', we're talking about those who are invading your world. They were clearly coming to this world with malicious intent, and when diplomacy failed, it lead to immediate war.

And frankly, in terms of Alliance and Horde, up until Medivh got them to resolve their differences, they've never truly became allies before. We can point at individual situations like the Laughing Skull betraying the Horde or Alterac betraying the Alliance, but that was not true peace. In context of what Daelin saw of the Orcs, there was no such thing as a good Orc.

In terms of how Daelin saw things, the Horde was a disease that needed to be cleansed. And in context to Warcraft 2 and 3, he was right. But it was not a diplomatic or righteous method. It was a 'chaotic good' method, much like Arthas choosing to take Frostmourne to beat Mal'ganis or Illidan using the Eye of Sargeras to destroy the Frozen Throne. Those are very effective at removing the source of the threat, but leave very little for the healing process afterwards. It leaves a wound wide open for corruption.

In the context of the story and how the Warcraft universe is written, allies and enemies make one stronger. Without those challenges, they become weaker. It's through this tempering that they remain strong. Yet it's in the belief of some that they must dominate and exterminate in order to be safe; and the truth is they will never be safe because little do they know they are characters in a series called 'Warcraft'.

Last edited by Triceron; 11-22-2019 at 11:09 AM..
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