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  #5701  
Old 06-08-2018, 10:22 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Incidentally, it's perhaps worth remembering that the word "naaru" can be singular and plural.

So it's not 100% certain if the mag'har are saying that a bunch of naaru showed up to lead the draenei, if they're referring to the restored K'ara assuming that role, or if perhaps the AU version of a certain Prime Naaru found her way to AU Draenor and decided to start recruiting her own Army of the Light from there.

Unlike the demons, we already know from encountering AU K'ure that the naaru exist separately and distinctly in both universes, so there may well turn out to be another Xe'ra out there.

All that being said, if this is indeed a one-sided, cut-and-dried fanatical Light worship thing, I'll frankly find this execution boring. They already squandered the Army of the Light as a concept by just making it basically more draenei, and it'd seem to me like a pitiful waste to do the same thing in finally addressing the idea of "the Light gone too far." It'd be more interesting if they used it as an opportunity to build up something we haven't seen before instead of just more space goats with a thicker coat of gold paint. Like have another Xe'ra-type naaru leading some new race of Light-followers whose hardline, rigid zealotry makes the draenei look like a bunch of freewheeling pagans by comparison. Have some worlds-spanning holy empire led by races so devout and so fanatical that even the draenei are taken aback.

It'll just feel forced at this point since the Azerothian and draenei (which is ultimately naaru) brands of Light worship have frankly been downright tolerant and accepting of coexistence with those who practice other faiths. Just having them spontaneously become hardcore evangelists toward everyone would feel like a massive departure for no good reason, as it's not like the naaru are some sudden new influence. The draenei have always had naaru in their midst, and other than Xe'ra specifically the naaru have shown no qualms whatsoever about accepting anyone and everyone whose deeds serve the Light's ultimate purpose regardless of whether they actually follow its specific tenets.

Last edited by ARM3481; 06-08-2018 at 10:24 AM..
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  #5702  
Old 06-08-2018, 10:29 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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I disagree. Whenever Blizzard feels like it, it shows different PoVs in things just to create conflict. Sometimes, the divergent PoVs are even conflicting one another, as both can't be true.
That's entirely false. Every time they show two PoVs, the Alliance one always turns out to be true. Blizzard is about as subtle as a drunken hobo.

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Which is why things like Taurajo, the Purge of Dalaran or Garrosh's actions are still debated to this day.
Because they were shittily written and badly implemented?

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In this case, we only saw the perspective of the race that's joining the Horde.
Which is good, not everything needs to show the Alliance (or an Alliance race) being super great and good.

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A culture that's entirely based on that is never good, because it will eventually turn on allies or itself.
That may be true in real life, but not in Warcraft. The Orcs were capable of living peacefully for centuries alongside the Draenei, before the Legion lied to them and manipulated them. The Orcs aren't all based around that, either. Different Clans have different moral values. The Frostwolves prioritize individualism and family. The Thunderlords prioritize group cohesiveness. The Blackrocks are about militarism. The Warsong are about war. The Shadowmoon lived peacefully with the Draenei before forced into the Iron Horde.

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I'd be more welcoming of these mag'har if their quotes weren't entirely based on killing other things. Where are the peaceful orcs? Apparently, they joined the draenei.
If the Draenei were "peaceful" they would not have started a war of conquest.

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"We bested the primals. We will bring down any foe."
"I miss the botani. When you roasted them just right, they were DELICIOUS."


Then, from the Lightbound:
"You have ruined this land! It is not too late to save it!"
"Your people are choking the life from this world... dooming the land to desiccation."
Neither of these are proof that all Primals are extinct, nor is it proof that killing many of them destroyed the world. As I said, Terokkar Forest, Nagrand, Zangarmarsh, and Blade's Edge aren't "desiccated", and that's even without the Primals. Correlation does not equal causation.

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The botani planted/nurtured other plants. The destruction of the primals could have thrown the environment out of balance, leading to extinction of other species. Draenor may find balance again over time, with other species taking the place of the dying ones, but for now it could have dire consequences.
And yet, if that were true, Outland would have no plantlife, period.

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Even Lightforged beings like the draenei, Turalyon or Lothraxion have been shown to be able to make choices that aren't fanatical. Yes, Xe'ra tried to force the Light on Illidan, but there's nothing saying that Illidan would turn into a fanatical zealot due to that.
Judging by Turalyon going into a psychotic, spittle-flecked frenzy when Illidan killed Xe'ra in self-defence (while freaking Velen was chill over it, if a little sad), told me everything I needed to know about the insane fanaticism of the Light.

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Until we actually see Draenor and can judge for ourselves, I won't take the mag'har PoV as absolute truth.

I will never trust the opinion of someone who is so quick to judge to say things such as these:

"There are draenei on this world?
<Geya'rah narrows her eyes.>
Not for long."

"The Alliance embraces the draenei and their Lightforged kin.
That alone is reason to crush their cities to dust."


The mag'har are not reasonable, so there's no reason to put trust on them.
They just came from a world where the Draenei were trying to exterminate their culture and basically force them into being slaves of the Light, at the behest of their "gods". It makes perfect since that they are not fond of the Draenei for betraying and trying to subjugate them.

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
It'll just feel forced at this point since the Azerothian and draenei (which is ultimately naaru) brands of Light worship have frankly been downright tolerant and accepting of coexistence with those who practice other faiths. Just having them spontaneously become hardcore evangelists toward everyone would feel like a massive departure for no good reason, as it's not like the naaru are some sudden new influence. The draenei have always had naaru in their midst, and other than Xe'ra specifically the naaru have shown no qualms whatsoever about accepting anyone and everyone whose deeds serve the Light's ultimate purpose regardless of whether they actually follow its specific tenets.
I think the main reason the Light or Draenei never attempted to forcibly convert or conquer in the name of the Light, is simply due to them constantly being on the run from the Legion. There's a line said by a ghost in Drustvar (I think) that mentions "the burning ones" keeping balance. The demons likely held off both the Light and the Void from either enacting their ambitions.

I don't think that implies just the Void. Now that the Draenei aren't constantly on the run, and the Light isn't preoccupied fighting the Legion due to it being destroyed, it's conquest time for "justice" and "holiness". So, it doesn't have to come out of nowhere, as everytime we have encountered the Naaru and Draenei before this, was during their battles against the Legion.
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  #5703  
Old 06-08-2018, 10:41 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Also, I think Kyalin will be happy about this!

I am indeed quite pleased with Golden's pet night elf being killed immediately.

Rest in pieces, you worthless sack of trash.
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  #5704  
Old 06-08-2018, 11:04 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
That may be true in real life, but not in Warcraft. The Orcs were capable of living peacefully for centuries alongside the Draenei, before the Legion lied to them and manipulated them. The Orcs aren't all based around that, either. Different Clans have different moral values. The Frostwolves prioritize individualism and family. The Thunderlords prioritize group cohesiveness. The Blackrocks are about militarism. The Warsong are about war. The Shadowmoon lived peacefully with the Draenei before forced into the Iron Horde.
Which seems to rather suggest that when separated into clans each clan is willing to entertain peace with the one non-hostile race in the face of everything else that threatens them.

But as soon as you unify the clans to the point that they can overcome those enemies, what was previously defensive aggression and survival instinct quickly translates into a lust for conquest. One of the enduring themes of the orcs on Draenor (both Draenors) has been that while they're ordinarily strong enough to survive, if united they become strong enough to conquer the world. And not surprisingly, when the clans are united that seems to become exactly what they want to do.
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  #5705  
Old 06-08-2018, 11:31 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Which seems to rather suggest that when separated into clans each clan is willing to entertain peace with the one non-hostile race in the face of everything else that threatens them.
From what we know, the Orcs hadn't done anything like that since the Iron Horde, which had mostly collapsed and only the three clans that made up the Mag'har had joined the Horde. The Draenei, however, had the numbers and the resources to start a war at the prodding of their "masters". The Orcs have rarely started wars simply of their own volition. First, they started on the Draenei due to lies and manipulation from the Legion, not murderlust. Same with the Humans. The only times the Orcs did go out on a conquest spree of their own volition, it was when Garrosh led the Horde and manipulated the Orcs from past Draenor into the Iron Horde (and even the latter example was just continuing the war the Legion had already started with Garrosh simply omitting the truth from the other Orcs), and even with that many Orcs hated him and didn't agree with his racist warmongering.

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But as soon as you unify the clans to the point that they can overcome those enemies, what was previously defensive aggression and survival instinct quickly translates into a lust for conquest. One of the enduring themes of the orcs on Draenor (both Draenors) has been that while they're ordinarily strong enough to survive, if united they become strong enough to conquer the world. And not surprisingly, when the clans are united that seems to become exactly what they want to do.
The problem, however, is that the Orcs, and Orc fans, are being mistreated by this portrayal. I don't get why the story seems to be going backwards to Warcraft II, when the writers should have stuck with the peaceful and honorable Orcs of Warcraft III, which were an interesting aversion of the "evil Orcs" trope. Saurfang (and classic Thrall) personifies this portrayal.
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  #5706  
Old 06-08-2018, 12:08 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
The problem, however, is that the Orcs, and Orc fans, are being mistreated by this portrayal. I don't get why the story seems to be going backwards to Warcraft II, when the writers should have stuck with the peaceful and honorable Orcs of Warcraft III, which were an interesting aversion of the "evil Orcs" trope. Saurfang (and classic Thrall) personifies this portrayal.
The "peaceful honorable" orcs never existed.Even in Warcraft 3, Grom admited to Thrall that he lied and that the chieftains drank demon blood willingly. Several clans were themed after war and conquest (SHattered Hand, Warsong, Thunder Lorde).

Some clans acted in peaceful and honorable waysm, sure, but when you unite the clans it's always the more violent ones that come out on top.

Even when supposedly reversing the draenei/orc role, there's no comparisons between their behaviors. The orcs murdered and raped draenei, the supposedly "corrupted" draenei try to talk and offer mercy. Even when Yrel decides to kill Grom, she puts it clear: "Let's decide this your way."

Thrall had this idealized idea of what an orc should be and tried to teach the orcs to behave like that. But, because he believed in the lie in the first place, he continued to honor the past rather than discard it. That's why we have orc places named after murderers and sociopaths. Hell, his own teachers were Orgrim Doomhammer and Grom Hellscream, two orcs that are anything but peaceful.

Garrosh is what a "true orc" was. His downfall should have been a huge sign that orc society should be reformed.
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  #5707  
Old 06-08-2018, 12:22 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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The "peaceful honorable" orcs never existed.Even in Warcraft 3, Grom admited to Thrall that he lied and that the chieftains drank demon blood willingly. Several clans were themed after war and conquest (SHattered Hand, Warsong, Thunder Lorde).
Alliance bias, opinion discarded.

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Some clans acted in peaceful and honorable waysm, sure, but when you unite the clans it's always the more violent ones that come out on top.
Not true. Thrall's rulership is proof of that.

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Even when supposedly reversing the draenei/orc role, there's no comparisons between their behaviors. The orcs murdered and raped draenei, the supposedly "corrupted" draenei try to talk and offer mercy. Even when Yrel decides to kill Grom, she puts it clear: "Let's decide this your way."
So, genocide and racial oppression are okay if they are done by the glorious and perfect Draenei? Whatever.

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Thrall had this idealized idea of what an orc should be and tried to teach the orcs to behave like that. But, because he believed in the lie in the first place, he continued to honor the past rather than discard it. That's why we have orc places named after murderers and sociopaths. Hell, his own teachers were Orgrim Doomhammer and Grom Hellscream, two orcs that are anything but peaceful.
Thrall's idea was entirely correct, though. Most Orcs follow the morals and principles he believed in, and aren't "murderers and sociopaths". Your own statement disproves itself: if Thrall learned his morals from Orgrim Doomhammer and Grom Hellscream, they couldn't be the evil monsters Alliance fanbois claim them to be. Thrall should have, by your logic, turned out just like Garrosh. Especially since most of the interactions with Humans he had were them beating him and treating him like sewage.

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Garrosh is what a "true orc" was. His downfall should have been a huge sign that orc society should be reformed.
Blizzard has stated that most Orcs disagreed with Garrosh. If Orcish society, in general, was to blame, all Orcs would have followed him. They didn't.
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  #5708  
Old 06-08-2018, 12:29 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
The problem, however, is that the Orcs, and Orc fans, are being mistreated by this portrayal. I don't get why the story seems to be going backwards to Warcraft II, when the writers should have stuck with the peaceful and honorable Orcs of Warcraft III, which were an interesting aversion of the "evil Orcs" trope. Saurfang (and classic Thrall) personifies this portrayal.
Indeed, I'm in full agreement here. And I've long felt the ideal way to handle it would have been to address it in the context of the orcs coming out of WC3 who've learned better seeing how it used to be in the pre-Thrall era and consciously setting out to do and be better than they once were. Garrosh should have been a wake-up call hearkening to Grom's revelation to Thrall that the orcs chose corruption. The Iron Horde should have been a hard-eyed recognition for the orcs of how bad things can get if they let such sentiments and those who espouse them take root again and gain prominence in the Horde.

But that's hard to do when you're trying to maintain a perpetual status quo of faction conflict built on nostalgic ties to the first two RTS's. So instead of the occasional flare-up of bad apples like the True Horde and Iron Horde being truly examined from the PoV of those modern orcs who would and should be appalled by it from the outset, the "good orcs" just clam up and let things go to hell repeatedly until everyone else bands together to clean up the mess. Then the Horde narrative quietly pockets the "warmongering orc" card without further redress so it can be whipped out to cash in those old bloodlusted conquest chips the next time they want the orcs to look badass again.

All the while handwaving it as "most of the orcs didn't agree." Except if most of them didn't agree with any of it, it couldn't have happened, as the bulk of the Horde armies are comprised of "most of the orcs" and the other Horde races. And that assertion is followed naturally by nary an orc truly reflecting upon how it all went wrong and how not to let that happen again.

It's an extremely simplistic, one-dimensional tool they keep going back to. The idea that the orcs could be true champions and heroes of Azeroth fighting for the betterment of the world instead of just sophomoric warmongers along for the ride to crack skulls and spill blood continually escapes the writers. Instead they favor emphasizing the edgy things that make orcs seem "cool" in the extremely short-term but paint them as culturally psychopathic and unworthy of sympathy in the long-term.

And that's part of the problem I have with the draenei thing. It's trying to play the "these are non-corrupted 'good orcs' so they must be the party that's in the right" card, when even notwithstanding the personal involvement of certain of them in the Iron Horde, their mannerisms and speech still evokes the clear reminder that like every orc who isn't a Thrall, Drek'thar or Saurfang, these mag'har too are being kept poised to get the villain treatment the moment Blizz deems it time for some more Blood and Thunder.

And worse, they frame it with the inane faction narrative of the "Alliance is the evil side because we're against them" position that frankly comes across flat to anyone Horde-side who's actually paying attention to what their faction is doing. To anyone playing Horde or Alliance who's not blindly flag-waving, the impact of one's side being engaged in unjustified wrongdoing in-game is not undone just because a Blizzard employee posted something about moral relativism (especially when they already baked the instigation of the war into its premise; Sylvanas wants the Azerite to build weapons for a war against the Alliance. The Alliance remains ignorant the stuff even exists until they find out she's having it harvested in Silithus and then has to play catch-up to even find out what it does. All this other stuff is just window dressing; the whole thing's basically started by Sylvanas gearing up for a war over who gets the stuff that can win the war.)

Moreover, the draenei thing doesn't actually even reflect on the Alliance anyway. They aren't in the Alliance, and frankly they wouldn't even work in the Alliance, because it's full of people who don't actually follow the Light. For some sort of intolerant Light-based fanaticism to actually take root in the Alliance, they'd have to subject it to the same uneven, inconsistent writing they've used for the Horde to keep justifying the incomprehensible lack of reaction to Sylvanas' (and for a time, Garrosh's) atrocities, and breaking both factions' internal narratives is in no way remotely preferable to trying to actually fix the one whose scatterbrained representation has been dragging them both down for years.

The whole "ha ha, the Alliance can finally be the bad guys" attitude that's cropped up in various quarters since info came out about the AU draenei sounds like little more than a cheap, brainless pettiness born from a willingness to embrace more shit writing just to stick it to the other side's players. I want both factions and the races therein to be portrayed well, not for one to be finally screwed over with the villain bat just to assuage resentment over the prior botched handling of the other.

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  #5709  
Old 06-08-2018, 12:35 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I can find multiple quotes of Thrall being bloodlustingly violent alongside Cairne in Warcraft III anytime I want.
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Old 06-08-2018, 12:48 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Alliance bias, opinion discarded.


Not true. Thrall's rulership is proof of that.


So, genocide and racial oppression are okay if they are done by the glorious and perfect Draenei? Whatever.


Thrall's idea was entirely correct, though. Most Orcs follow the morals and principles he believed in, and aren't "murderers and sociopaths". Your own statement disproves itself: if Thrall learned his morals from Orgrim Doomhammer and Grom Hellscream, they couldn't be the evil monsters Alliance fanbois claim them to be. Thrall should have, by your logic, turned out just like Garrosh. Especially since most of the interactions with Humans he had were them beating him and treating him like sewage.


Blizzard has stated that most Orcs disagreed with Garrosh. If Orcish society, in general, was to blame, all Orcs would have followed him. They didn't.
I bolded the part that shows how unwilling to listen you are acting. I never said anything even close to "Thrall learned his morals from Orgrim Doomhammer and Grom Hellscream", only that at some point they were his mentors (alongside Drek'tar).

Thrall learned his morals from Taretha, a human, and that's why he's different from other orcs. However, he also revered sociopaths like Doomhammer and Grom, who saw Thrall as this naive guy with potential. By putting figures such as them in pedestals and honoring them, Thrall forced orc civilization to not move away from its path. Instead, he idealized orc history, an error that made him put Garrosh in power because he saw in Garrosh an "uncorrupted orc". Well, Garrosh is what uncorrupted orcs are.

Orc society was not civilized. It never had moved away from tribalism and raw survival in a harsh world. Thrall tried to move the orcs away from that but failed by making them worship and seek a past that was not peaceful and most often not honorable.

I'm all for orcs reforming. I'd love to see them become more like what Thrall envisioned. But they'll never do so as long as groups like the maghar continue to be portrayed as the ideal form of orc. Orc society need to move as far away from its past as possible, not embrace it.

IMO, and I need to stress this is a very personal opinion, Thrall himself was proven to be flawed the moment he decided the only way he could stop Daelin was killing him, rather than capture him and keep him as a honored prisoner and worthy foe to prove he was not like the orcs of the past. By killing Daelin, Thrall proved that he was still thinking like an orc of the old days.
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  #5711  
Old 06-08-2018, 07:07 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Blizzard has stated that most Orcs disagreed with Garrosh. If Orcish society, in general, was to blame, all Orcs would have followed him. They didn't.
Except that was a retcon. Before, it was said there was way more than just a small minority that had supported Garrosh. They just retconned that so the Horde could once again escape accountability for its actions and continue to let the Orcs be a recurring threat.

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Old 06-08-2018, 09:36 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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I bolded the part that shows how unwilling to listen you are acting. I never said anything even close to "Thrall learned his morals from Orgrim Doomhammer and Grom Hellscream", only that at some point they were his mentors (alongside Drek'tar).

Thrall learned his morals from Taretha, a human, and that's why he's different from other orcs. However, he also revered sociopaths like Doomhammer and Grom, who saw Thrall as this naive guy with potential. By putting figures such as them in pedestals and honoring them, Thrall forced orc civilization to not move away from its path. Instead, he idealized orc history, an error that made him put Garrosh in power because he saw in Garrosh an "uncorrupted orc". Well, Garrosh is what uncorrupted orcs are.

Orc society was not civilized. It never had moved away from tribalism and raw survival in a harsh world. Thrall tried to move the orcs away from that but failed by making them worship and seek a past that was not peaceful and most often not honorable.

I'm all for orcs reforming. I'd love to see them become more like what Thrall envisioned. But they'll never do so as long as groups like the maghar continue to be portrayed as the ideal form of orc. Orc society need to move as far away from its past as possible, not embrace it.

IMO, and I need to stress this is a very personal opinion, Thrall himself was proven to be flawed the moment he decided the only way he could stop Daelin was killing him, rather than capture him and keep him as a honored prisoner and worthy foe to prove he was not like the orcs of the past. By killing Daelin, Thrall proved that he was still thinking like an orc of the old days.
Thrall wasn’t thinking like an Orc of the Old Days. He was thinking like an Orc. Period. Taking honored captives is human chivalry. Orcs kill their enemies, and they enjoy doing it.

Thrall appointed Garrosh his successor because he realized that he was a product of humans and could not change his people into humans. In the face of a King like Varian it was never going to work. As the Bronze Dragonflight tells us, Garrosh had the potential to be the best Warchief ever, but failed, in my opinion because instead of trying to surpass his father, he only tried to be like his father.

The Orcish fantasy is that of a Warrior Race. Not unlike Y’rel, you seem to think you can fix them by fundamentally changing that. She’s trying to do it by force, and that is in fact wrong.
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  #5713  
Old 06-08-2018, 11:40 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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A weird thing I found. They removed most of the BfA reputation mounts either this build or the last. The Kul Tiran gryphons are gone, as are three of the four pterrodaxes. They've been removed from both the mount journal and the reputation vendors themselves.

Now its just three mounts per alliance and horde. Three horses for alliance, one hyena, one blood tick, and one pterrodax for Horde.

Also, MrGM did a video tour of updated Arathi. Someone at Blizzard must have had fun making destroyed versions of the garrison buildings:



The alliance portal trainer in Stromgarde is a high elf. Blizzard still feels the need to use them as much as a playable race I guess.

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Old 06-09-2018, 05:17 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Thrall wasn’t thinking like an Orc of the Old Days. He was thinking like an Orc. Period. Taking honored captives is human chivalry. Orcs kill their enemies, and they enjoy doing it.
And that's why they fuck up everything.

By having no mercy, there's no reason for others to show mercy for them. Hey, orcs can have all the pride they want, they just can't complain that other races aren't willing to "share" the world with them.
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Old 06-09-2018, 06:21 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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And that's why they fuck up everything.

By having no mercy, there's no reason for others to show mercy for them. Hey, orcs can have all the pride they want, they just can't complain that other races aren't willing to "share" the world with them.
I agree, they shouldn’t complain. They should just kill those who try to remove them from the world. And enjoy it.
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  #5716  
Old 06-09-2018, 10:02 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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A weird thing I found. They removed most of the BfA reputation mounts either this build or the last. The Kul Tiran gryphons are gone, as are three of the four pterrodaxes. They've been removed from both the mount journal and the reputation vendors themselves.

Now its just three mounts per alliance and horde. Three horses for alliance, one hyena, one blood tick, and one pterrodax for Horde.
Weird.
The missing mounts will probably be moved to somewhere else.

(And I wanted those gryphons...)

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Also, MrGM did a video tour of updated Arathi. Someone at Blizzard must have had fun making destroyed versions of the garrison buildings:



The alliance portal trainer in Stromgarde is a high elf. Blizzard still feels the need to use them as much as a playable race I guess.
I love it. I hope people like it enough for Blizzard to consider updating more zones like that.

(My only complain is that Stromgarde is lacking its cathedral + crypt of former kings).
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  #5717  
Old 06-09-2018, 10:48 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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The gryphons were nice wtf
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Old 06-09-2018, 11:08 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
And that's why they fuck up everything.

By having no mercy, there's no reason for others to show mercy for them. Hey, orcs can have all the pride they want, they just can't complain that other races aren't willing to "share" the world with them.
But they do show mercy, towards those who deserve it. Women, children, and the elderly and infirm aren't considered "honorable" to kill, and it is considered morally vile to do so.

They just don't show mercy to those like Daelin Proudmoore, who would butcher their people down to the last child and piss on their graves afterward. They give enemies a chance to surrender, peacefully, if they don't take it, they die.
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  #5719  
Old 06-09-2018, 12:59 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Remember that bad writing is what has kept the Horde alive and a threat.
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Old 06-09-2018, 01:59 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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The "peaceful honorable" orcs never existed.Even in Warcraft 3, Grom admited to Thrall that he lied and that the chieftains drank demon blood willingly. Several clans were themed after war and conquest (SHattered Hand, Warsong, Thunder Lorde).
Nahhh let him have his perspective, he's dying of starvation from a lack of "Alliance are teh evulz" plot. I don't even think Draenei are all that villainous in this scenario either considering how easy Grom and the Iron Horde got off but it's whatevs.

Anyway, I imagine they're setting this up to be a way to have the Horde invade and take over Azuremyst, just like they're dropping hints at the Alliance taking over Silvermoon. Guess whether either factions succeeds depends on if Blizzard has the balls to truly make each continent purely dominated by one faction.

Overall, this feels like some proper Draenei vs. Orc conflict that we never honestly got in a respectable capacity because Blizzard constantly treats Draenei like they're Tauren where they'll still doggedly push for peace even when the other faction is slaughtering their people. Seeing them think more like Maraad and just resort to crushing Orc skulls would be a breath of fresh air for their characterization.
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Old 06-09-2018, 02:30 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Nahhh let him have his perspective, he's dying of starvation from a lack of "Alliance are teh evulz" plot. I don't even think Draenei are all that villainous in this scenario either considering how easy Grom and the Iron Horde got off but it's whatevs.
I'm more than content with this scenario, as it actually gives the Orcs a (somewhat) good and justified reason for hating the Draenei, and for fighting back.

Horde players like myself are severely lacking any reason to feel excited or to want to fight in the faction war. This is one of the very few instances of a Horde race getting a solid justification for being in the war, as well as showing the negatives of the Light. I'll take whatever meager scraps I can get, even if it is shoddily written and idiotic.
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Last edited by Ganishka; 06-09-2018 at 04:18 PM..
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  #5722  
Old 06-09-2018, 03:44 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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Fuck you guys.

Horde needs more Iron Horde tanks and shit Alliance needs to be whatever probably Ancients or soemthing Horde needs Fire and Metal and Machines
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  #5723  
Old 06-09-2018, 07:12 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Nahhh let him have his perspective, he's dying of starvation from a lack of "Alliance are teh evulz" plot. I don't even think Draenei are all that villainous in this scenario either considering how easy Grom and the Iron Horde got off but it's whatevs.

Anyway, I imagine they're setting this up to be a way to have the Horde invade and take over Azuremyst, just like they're dropping hints at the Alliance taking over Silvermoon. Guess whether either factions succeeds depends on if Blizzard has the balls to truly make each continent purely dominated by one faction.

Overall, this feels like some proper Draenei vs. Orc conflict that we never honestly got in a respectable capacity because Blizzard constantly treats Draenei like they're Tauren where they'll still doggedly push for peace even when the other faction is slaughtering their people. Seeing them think more like Maraad and just resort to crushing Orc skulls would be a breath of fresh air for their characterization.
Yeah, I’m seeing the full Continental conquest coming as well. As a Blood Elf fan I’m not even mad about it. Void Elves have an equal claim. I see no reason for a Draenei fan to be upset given they have a nice functional spaceship. Why should they stick to the crashes one. It’s not like Azureymst has some sort of special claim on them.
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Old 06-09-2018, 07:22 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Yeah, I’m seeing the full Continental conquest coming as well. As a Blood Elf fan I’m not even mad about it. Void Elves have an equal claim. I see no reason for a Draenei fan to be upset given they have a nice functional spaceship. Why should they stick to the crashes one. It’s not like Azureymst has some sort of special claim on them.
I'm starting to think it may happen indeed. Draenei forced to move away from their islands, the Alliance invading Quel'thalas (we have heard twice characters talking about Silvermoon returning to the Alliance). Maybe even my half-serious prediction may come true: the Sunwell is corrupted, explodes, and half of the blood elves turn void.

This could also be the perfect setup for a "WoW 2" expansion. Or even a real WoW 2 game.
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Old 06-09-2018, 08:28 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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I'm starting to think it may happen indeed. Draenei forced to move away from their islands, the Alliance invading Quel'thalas (we have heard twice characters talking about Silvermoon returning to the Alliance). Maybe even my half-serious prediction may come true: the Sunwell is corrupted, explodes, and half of the blood elves turn void.

This could also be the perfect setup for a "WoW 2" expansion. Or even a real WoW 2 game.
It gives both Anduin and Sylvanas a reason to get directly involved, something to lose. Anduin would surely rush to rescue his mentor at the Exodar, while Sylvanas isn’t about to take any kind of invasion of her Homeland lying down.

Blood Knights might have to learn how to invoke the light without a Sunwell, but they’ve had years to actually learn how to do it the same way everyone else does.
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