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  #101  
Old 11-07-2017, 08:39 AM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Ah, the hallowed "wait and see" argument!

I admit, I'm jumping the gun here, sure. They could come out tomorrow and put up another trailer that reveals that it's not that bad. But they haven't so far, and if my prior experience with this company, and this argument, is any gauge, the worst case isn't usually that far off of the mark.

As I used to say, I am reading a trend. Or, as our great Orcish leader might say:

So, for now, it looks like Saurfang knew about, and participated in what was calculated to be (if it didn't turn out to be) one of the largest acts of mass murder in Azeroth's history. It appears that Horde players will be asked to reconcile with that. Now of course, I'm not a Horde fan, but if you are a Horde fan, I do think it's worth asking "are you okay with doing that again? Because you're probably going to have to do that again."

But yeah *shrug* I could be wrong. They might come up with some explanation that bridges Saurfang walking menacingly towards Teldrassil just before it gets destroyed and his prior presentation. I'm sure it will make as much sense as Cenarius not caring about Ashenvale, but hey, you could get it!
I remember early leaks of Legion claiming the Horde betrays the Alliance in the opening, leaves them to die and Sylvanas kills Vol'jin and Varian. Didn't really turn out that way.

I initially wrote a more lengthy response, but I don't think this is worth it. We're not going to find any common ground here. Maybe you're right, maybe I am. We're not going to know until we know.
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  #102  
Old 11-07-2017, 08:51 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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I agree with you on this; the mess regarding the Horde can be traced back to Thrall. He was an effective Warchief for the most part on his own - but his decision to go full retard and give Garrosh the driver's seat started the domino effect that is in place now; it's almost like the seat of Warchief is like musical chairs, everyone seems to get a turn.

As for Baine - I don't see how he is too forgiving. He is strong and fierce when he needs to be; that said I still feel Cairne would have been the perfect replacement for Thrall.
He gives the Quillboar resources to try to placate them, when they have no interest in being placated, and has generally failed to support his own people when it comes to external threats. However, I will admit he deals with internal threats just fine.

As for now, I'm going to start suspecting Il'gynoth already leaked the general plot of the next expansion, so I'm going to assume this quote is tied to what starts the war.

The boy-king serves at the master's table. Three lies will he offer you.

Anduin is likely unwittingly serving the interests of N'zoth. Anduin will have been misled on three points, and this misinformation will spread from him.
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  #103  
Old 11-07-2017, 10:33 AM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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Just had a few thoughts as to why I lost Horde faction pride. I think it's simply that when it comes down to it, Thrall was the one to destroy the Horde with his blatant Orc supremacy. Garrosh being appointed Warchief was the result of Thrall's flaws, believing a non-Orc could never rule the Horde and being too weak to go against what some Orcs believed they wanted. After the issue with the Cataclysm was resolved, he should have at least stepped back into an advisory role. But he didn't.

He put Garrosh on the throne for the stupidest of reasons, and just washed his hands of the whole matter. He would not condemn unprovoked attacks on the Alliance. This is what's behind why people don't want Thrall back. He caused the whole fucking problem and hasn't even acknowledged it yet. Through his lack of vision and his weakness, we got stuck with a faction war.

And they haven't built up anyone else to truly be a Warchief to be proud of. Baine is too forgiving. Vol'jin never gets enough to make him look capable. Sylvanas is evil. And so it goes. At this point, just screw the idea of a Warchief and give them a council. Then maybe we'll finally have something that represents the Horde.
The developers had Thrall put Garrosh in to feed the faction conflict. That doesn't change the fact that it makes Thrall look terrible.
Even when he was warchief, he never condemned the Warsong's attacks in Ashenvale, let the Forsaken in the Horde, and put Gallywix in charge after he enslaved the Bilgewater goblins and tried to kill the goblin player character.
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  #104  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:01 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by Krakhed View Post
He gives the Quillboar resources to try to placate them, when they have no interest in being placated, and has generally failed to support his own people when it comes to external threats. However, I will admit he deals with internal threats just fine.

As for now, I'm going to start suspecting Il'gynoth already leaked the general plot of the next expansion, so I'm going to assume this quote is tied to what starts the war.

The boy-king serves at the master's table. Three lies will he offer you.

Anduin is likely unwittingly serving the interests of N'zoth. Anduin will have been misled on three points, and this misinformation will spread from him.
I feel like I have to defend Baine on how he handled the quillboars. Giving them the water they wanted was the most cost-effective solution during war time.
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  #105  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:12 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
I feel like I have to defend Baine on how he handled the quillboars. Giving them the water they wanted was the most cost-effective solution during war time.
sure, it's a great idea. If the Quillboar hadn't remained hostile, proving that appeasement was ineffective.
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  #106  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:13 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Mungo View Post
The developers had Thrall put Garrosh in to feed the faction conflict. That doesn't change the fact that it makes Thrall look terrible.
Even when he was warchief, he never condemned the Warsong's attacks in Ashenvale, let the Forsaken in the Horde, and put Gallywix in charge after he enslaved the Bilgewater goblins and tried to kill the goblin player character.
Don’t blame him for letting the Forsaken in the Horde. He was convinced by a Tauren. Letting them stay after Vanilla though is dumb.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #107  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:14 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
I feel like I have to defend Baine on how he handled the quillboars. Giving them the water they wanted was the most cost-effective solution during war time.
It might've been if they didn't keep attacking after they got it and kill people at Red Cloud Mesa
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  #108  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:18 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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sure, it's a great idea. If the Quillboar hadn't remained hostile, proving that appeasement was ineffective.
Can’t blame him for attempting a diplomatic solution first. Really can’t blame him since some Horde players’ stance on warsong was “If the night elves would just give the Horde lumber, they’ll stop killing them for it.”
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #109  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:18 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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It might've been if they didn't keep attacking after they got it and kill people at Red Cloud Mesa
After which the tauren changed their stance and had the tauren player kill the quillboar?
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  #110  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:46 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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The antagonists for this expansion are a secret society of seafarers who have existed since ancient times and have concluded that reality is unraveling because Tol Barad has always been west of Gilneas when it should have always been in Baradin Bay, causing space-time to collapse on itself and the Alliance and Horde to endlessly war each other years after their conflict should have ended.
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  #111  
Old 11-07-2017, 02:41 PM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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The antagonists for this expansion are a secret society of seafarers who have existed since ancient times and have concluded that reality is unraveling because Tol Barad has always been west of Gilneas when it should have always been in Baradin Bay, causing space-time to collapse on itself and the Alliance and Horde to endlessly war each other years after their conflict should have ended.
Hah, that's similar to the backstory for my orc. He noticed all the discrepancies and stupid decisions going on around him and concluded that nothing matters and became a deranged murdor-hobo.
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  #112  
Old 11-07-2017, 03:38 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Hah, that's similar to the backstory for my orc. He noticed all the discrepancies and stupid decisions going on around him and concluded that nothing matters and became a deranged murdor-hobo.
He’s an Orc. He doesn’t need much to become a deranged murder hobo.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #113  
Old 11-07-2017, 03:46 PM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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He’s an Orc. He doesn’t need much to become a deranged murder hobo.
I know, but as a warlock, he was at least intelligent enough to recognize things whern't quite right.
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  #114  
Old 11-07-2017, 05:27 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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After which the tauren changed their stance and had the tauren player kill the quillboar?
Could've killed them to begin with and saved the trouble
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  #115  
Old 11-07-2017, 05:54 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I know, but as a warlock, he was at least intelligent enough to recognize things whern't quite right.
I get to quote this so much...

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The only clan to ignore these plays for power were the Warlocks. Secluded in their towers, they saw the danger that was present.
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  #116  
Old 11-07-2017, 07:28 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Alright... lemme just return here....

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Why the fuck do you keep spamming that image?
It's not the same image. The quotes are different... and I still have quite a few in reserve.

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actually genn and his troops attack the forsaken in stormheim, the worgen live in darnassus can sylvanas attack the worgen and the night elves as revenge for what genn did in stormheim.
There are, frankly, better replies in the Story Forum on this argument. For me to summarize - it lacks a certain proportionality, and strays a bit outside the line for the Horde.

Remember when Garrosh pitched a fit over the same thing being done to a druidic school?

Well, it would appear the Horde is now a-ok with doing it to major population centers, at least thousands of times greater in scale.

Now, I know why I'm seeing this, and the conspiracy theories too about some random Alliance person committing a false flag attack and changing the sexual orientation of amphibians. Then there's the old god speculation or the idea that because the tree had always exhibited signs of corruption, that this was somehow a favor.

I offer a much simpler explanation: the Horde is being given the villain ball again. I'm not saying that to make you feel bad as a Horde fan - in fact I think you're getting a raw deal. But I do want you to appreciate what you're probably dealing with and being asked to stand for.

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And if Saurfang is turned into a raid-boss along with Slyvanas, I WILL quit this game. He's the only orc character left that I like
... and now he (probably) endorses genocide!



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I remember early leaks of Legion claiming the Horde betrays the Alliance in the opening, leaves them to die and Sylvanas kills Vol'jin and Varian. Didn't really turn out that way.

I initially wrote a more lengthy response, but I don't think this is worth it. We're not going to find any common ground here. Maybe you're right, maybe I am. We're not going to know until we know.
Probably not. You seem optimistic about this expansion whereas I am very pessimistic. I wouldn't argue that my pessimism comes out of the ether though. As a Night Elf fan, I am used to the worst case as far as I'm concerned typically being true, and the writers have done absolutely everything in their power to not make me trust them.

It would take a hell of a lot to make me trust them now.

Last edited by Kyalin V. Raintree; 11-07-2017 at 07:37 PM..
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  #117  
Old 11-07-2017, 10:30 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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actually genn and his troops attack the forsaken in stormheim, the worgen live in darnassus can sylvanas attack the worgen and the night elves as revenge for what genn did in stormheim.
Ah, this reminds me of how great the Stormheim finale cutscene is.

I am really really not sure how to approach this expansion. On the one hand, I never expected Blizzard to ever actually allow Lordaeron to be reclaimed and I certainly didn't anticipate the act of reclaiming it to be immortalized in an expansion cinematic.

On the other hand I've been burned before in this regard.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #118  
Old 11-07-2017, 10:51 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I'm sick of reading the same Saurfang / Horde shit every single time I click this thread.
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  #119  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:32 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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I'm sick of reading the same Saurfang / Horde shit every single time I click this thread.
Well it's likely to stay that way until more information (like the damn novel) is released and summarized on the forums.

For my part I apologize for ever mentioning burning Teldrassil all those years ago!
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #120  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:40 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Well it's likely to stay that way until more information (like the damn novel) is released and summarized on the forums.

For my part I apologize for ever mentioning burning Teldrassil all those years ago!
Meanwhile smart and productive people are having conversations about Zandalari, Drustvar, loas, Kul Tiras and even Azerite.

The people who are complaining about the Horde nonstop aren't probably even going to play through the entirety of BFA's story, some even won't touch the expansion itself.

Purge the wicked.
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  #121  
Old 11-08-2017, 12:46 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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I can't believe I can talk about Lordaeron in the non faction-argument thread.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #122  
Old 11-08-2017, 01:38 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I can't believe I can talk about Lordaeron in the non faction-argument thread.
Has that erection gone away yet?
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Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
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SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #123  
Old 11-08-2017, 02:05 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Has that erection gone away yet?
Nope still there
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #124  
Old 11-08-2017, 03:36 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Meanwhile smart and productive people are having conversations about Zandalari, Drustvar, loas, Kul Tiras and even Azerite.

The people who are complaining about the Horde nonstop aren't probably even going to play through the entirety of BFA's story, some even won't touch the expansion itself.

Purge the wicked.
I never pay monthly fees for video games. But I still like to keep track of how my old friend is doing.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 11-08-2017 at 04:08 AM..
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  #125  
Old 11-08-2017, 06:46 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I never pay monthly fees for video games. But I still like to keep track of how my old friend is doing.
At least you aren't complaining nonstop about the expansion.

I hope we get ship battles in some form or another, like that MoP scenario.
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