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  #5551  
Old 05-29-2018, 01:34 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Dude, that's exactly how necromancy has always¹ worked in Warcraft, ever since Warcraft III. Shut your mouth and use your brain.


¹: bar a few exceptions here and there
To be fair they deliberately and specifically laid out that the necromancy being used to make new Forsaken since Cataclysm doesn't work that way, as the implication of them coming back brainwashed and under control directly contradicted the Forsaken thematic emphasis on free will.

Most actual necromancy indeed enslaves the will of the reanimated to that of the caster; hence undead raised by the Scourge and Legion immediately serve their new masters, as with your example of Madrigosa. The Forsaken however, were given some hackneyed explanation about new Forsaken being mentally disheveled and lashing out against their old allies without thinking. Which...never so much explained their spontaneous loyalty to Sylvanas as just raised the question of why they didn't all immediately start attacking both the living and other undead indiscriminately. The explanation given arguably should be making newly raised Forsaken more of a threat to the other Forsaken than an asset, as a host of uncontrollable undead sudenly appearing and freaking out among their own lines seems like an incredibly dangerous thing to have happen.

Honestly they've never done a competent job of justifying new Forsaken rising as viable and loyal soldiers in mid-battle who immediately fall in line and fight alongside their former enemies against their allies from moments before (which is literally how Andorhal falls to the Forsaken in Cataclysm.) It continues to come across as the Forsaken outright functioning like the Scourge does - raising the dead as instantly, unquestioningly obedient slaves - with cheap excuses lobbed at us out-of-game by the devs to make Forsaken players feel better about basically following a Lich King.
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  #5552  
Old 05-29-2018, 02:29 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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The Forsaken should have never been playable (or a thing). Them getting Necromancy In A Can ala the Scourge but apparently without the drawback of rasied Undead being puppets of rotten meat shows it.

Especially if the devs are going to toy with the Forsaken being just Humans/Elves/Whatever with skin conditions that the meanies in the Alliance are mean to and not monsters wearing their shells' decayed flesh who should be spared no quarter.
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  #5553  
Old 05-29-2018, 03:59 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Yeah that's my whole point, Sylvanas goes on and on about "free will" and how the Forsaken she raises have a choice; yet it seems like free-willed undead seem to "choose" to immediately side with their enemy and start killing their former friends just like if the Scourge were raising them.

Take Captain Stone. She goes from being a guard captain to dead to Forsaken and then by the next fucking quest line she's already on board with killing Kul Tiran soldiers.

Back in Cata when they revamped the zones there was Marshal Redpath who was raised as a Forsaken - and he actively fought against Sylvanas and them because why would he serve the same people who destroyed his home(Southshore)? Yet for some stupid reason they changed it from that into he was crazy and wanted elbows.
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.

Last edited by Quirnheim; 05-29-2018 at 04:01 AM..
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  #5554  
Old 05-29-2018, 04:04 AM
Pepe Stormstout Pepe Stormstout is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Most actual necromancy indeed enslaves the will of the reanimated to that of the caster; hence undead raised by the Scourge and Legion immediately serve their new masters, as with your example of Madrigosa. The Forsaken however, were given some hackneyed explanation about new Forsaken being mentally disheveled and lashing out against their old allies without thinking. Which...never so much explained their spontaneous loyalty to Sylvanas as just raised the question of why they didn't all immediately start attacking both the living and other undead indiscriminately. The explanation given arguably should be making newly raised Forsaken more of a threat to the other Forsaken than an asset, as a host of uncontrollable undead sudenly appearing and freaking out among their own lines seems like an incredibly dangerous thing to have happen.
The full explanation laid out in Ask CDev is that some undead who are raised shortly after dying in combat or under stressful conditions are indeed violent and frenzied, but they are also easily manipulated, such as against the foes of those who raised them.
(https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/5208785474)

Of course, this doesn't change the fact that Blizzard has never mentioned any of this in-game. They also failed to make the Ask CDev answer fully consistent with in-game quests, since the Forsaken starting experience in Deathknell makes clear that newly-risen Forsaken are offered the choice of pursuing their own interests if they don't want to join the Forsaken or return to the grave, while the Ask CDev posts only mentions the latter two options (though Reigol Valdread's backstory in Traveler reiterates that undead can leave the Forsaken if they ask nicely).
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  #5555  
Old 05-29-2018, 06:22 AM
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My headcanon is that Forsaken do not have full will upon being raised. They are not only confused/maddened by undeath, but also fall prey from suggestions from its masters. Over time, as their mind clears, the weak mind control vanishes. By then, the new forsaken needs to come to terms with what it has just done.

It's the best I can do to explain the behavior seen in games.
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  #5556  
Old 05-29-2018, 07:06 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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At least you guys can hand wave away the blatant bias as always with nothing more then a blatant "QQ more".
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #5557  
Old 05-29-2018, 07:27 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Well, as to your point, the fact stands that the night elves getting weaker has nothing to do with the humans, they have planned Night Elves getting weakened since the race's conception. The whole campaign of Warcraft III was about the night elves getting their lands and all ruined, and the World of Warcraft explicitly stated that you are one of the few Kaldorei remaining in the world.
I know I'm late to this, but that doesn't make it better. Reading what you said as well, that the Night Elves had a lot of their prior savagery removed, and it would seem their destiny changed in the transition from Horde to Alliance is particularly damning.

That IS Horde bias. None of those themes had to change, and I think we'd be in a better position if they didn't. But the idea especially that joining the Alliance means that the race's identity is doomed to a tale of loss very much indicates a notion of Horde superiority, and the early beginnings of the "Horde Acts, Alliance Reacts" model.

Not to harp on this too much, but especially in an MMO, I can't work out why they thought this was a good idea.

Edit: For completeness' sake, since I know I will get a certain retort. The last time anyone tried to measure whether people actually liked how Night Elf portrayals had evolved, this was the result:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/11224102945

... and that was from a far more optimistic time, when Night Elf prospects looked a lot better.... and when I was a lot more insufferable just judging from my comments from back then.
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  #5558  
Old 05-29-2018, 07:44 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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It's not like the Night Elves were totally not savage in WCIII considering Grom's comment on it, Maiev talking of them wiping out lesser Races, and artwork of them when they were cemented as their WCIII version. And there's still how Humans have no excuse to be their civilizers or whatever you call Wolfheart.

It should be noted the devs have this awkward vision of the Alliance where they're required to both serve as their world's Superman but at the same time are alledgedly filled with corruption and bigotry against those outside of their club (with only obvious strawmen representing this). The Worgen are an example of this problem where we were led to believe they'd be this dark and savage Race but instead overall bounced between being furry Stormwinders and furry Night Elves.

Last edited by Cacofonix; 05-29-2018 at 08:00 AM..
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  #5559  
Old 05-29-2018, 08:10 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Blizzard doesn't spend as much time on the Alliance as they do the Horde, it's quite clear. That's why they want to phase out the blue side so they can write exclusively for the red side. Call me a loon all you want but it's the only explanation for the laughably stupid decisions they've made over the years.
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #5560  
Old 05-29-2018, 09:45 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Quirnheim View Post
Blizzard doesn't spend as much time on the Alliance as they do the Horde, it's quite clear. That's why they want to phase out the blue side so they can write exclusively for the red side. Call me a loon all you want but it's the only explanation for the laughably stupid decisions they've made over the years.
I think this is more likely: the story is written from the Alliance's perspective. The Horde are the villains, the Alliance are the heroes. For all of the pretense about it meaning more than that, it's what we've seen in Cata and beyond.

That's good, by the way, for no one. Horde bias complaints are born when Blizzard tries to create inciting incidents and tension intended to build up the bad guy as a threat. Blizzard beats down Night Elves some more, the rest of the Alliance struggles to beat the Horde back. We build to the inevitable confrontation between good and evil.

Then huge portions of the Horde fanbase remind the developers that they didn't sign up for this, and once again demonstrate that people don't usually like to be the bad guy. The villian is defeated, Horde players are (necessarily) given an out. Arc over.

Except it's not over. Back to one. Because it was so well liked the last time.
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  #5561  
Old 05-29-2018, 09:47 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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I don't buy that, sorry. I think the story is being written from a perspective of what is edgy and cool to the writers, and to them the Horde is edgy and cool so they write edgy and cool stuff for them while increasingly trying to sissy-fy the Alliance to allow for the one day removal of the faction altogether.
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #5562  
Old 05-29-2018, 11:38 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I think this is more likely: the story is written from the Alliance's perspective. The Horde are the villains, the Alliance are the heroes. For all of the pretense about it meaning more than that, it's what we've seen in Cata and beyond.

That's good, by the way, for no one. Horde bias complaints are born when Blizzard tries to create inciting incidents and tension intended to build up the bad guy as a threat. Blizzard beats down Night Elves some more, the rest of the Alliance struggles to beat the Horde back. We build to the inevitable confrontation between good and evil.

Then huge portions of the Horde fanbase remind the developers that they didn't sign up for this, and once again demonstrate that people don't usually like to be the bad guy. The villian is defeated, Horde players are (necessarily) given an out. Arc over.

Except it's not over. Back to one. Because it was so well liked the last time.
This... actually makes a lot of sense.
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  #5563  
Old 05-29-2018, 12:50 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
To be fair they deliberately and specifically laid out that the necromancy being used to make new Forsaken since Cataclysm doesn't work that way, as the implication of them coming back brainwashed and under control directly contradicted the Forsaken thematic emphasis on free will.

Most actual necromancy indeed enslaves the will of the reanimated to that of the caster; hence undead raised by the Scourge and Legion immediately serve their new masters, as with your example of Madrigosa. The Forsaken however, were given some hackneyed explanation about new Forsaken being mentally disheveled and lashing out against their old allies without thinking. Which...never so much explained their spontaneous loyalty to Sylvanas as just raised the question of why they didn't all immediately start attacking both the living and other undead indiscriminately. The explanation given arguably should be making newly raised Forsaken more of a threat to the other Forsaken than an asset, as a host of uncontrollable undead sudenly appearing and freaking out among their own lines seems like an incredibly dangerous thing to have happen.

Honestly they've never done a competent job of justifying new Forsaken rising as viable and loyal soldiers in mid-battle who immediately fall in line and fight alongside their former enemies against their allies from moments before (which is literally how Andorhal falls to the Forsaken in Cataclysm.) It continues to come across as the Forsaken outright functioning like the Scourge does - raising the dead as instantly, unquestioningly obedient slaves - with cheap excuses lobbed at us out-of-game by the devs to make Forsaken players feel better about basically following a Lich King.
There could exist an underlying mechanism in the magic that creates Scourge-like undead stretching back to Ner'zul or even earlier to KJ and the dreadlords who recreated him as the LK which ensures that even when poorly controlled the undead will inherently tend to attack those who are not like them, i.e. the living. This is also a common trope in fiction where the undead always can tell who is one of them and leave them alone. It makes sense that such hidden control mechanisms exist, like the one that makes the Scourge go berserk without a LK, to make them more deadly and to make it hard to subvert their purpose of destroying the living.

Admittedly I hate the "there must always be a Lich King" plot since even if true there are other, more crafty and gradual ways to dismantle the Scourge without just leaving Bolvar to inevitably go insane and become a problem. And so I dislike this "instant loyalty Forsaken" thing too though it is not entirely without sense. At least for the purpose of using the newly turned as cannon fodder, but after those undead snap out of it they should be leaving in droves since why kill for the people who killed you and fight your friends no less. This new method of recruitment should have the Forsaken constantly spawning new Forsaken (Forsaken squared? ) who have the same opinions of Sylvanas' Forsaken as they do of Arthas. But the Forsaken story is one of simplistic idiocy and missed opportunities and now we have this whole "lets go 180" lightforged undead nonsense to look forward to.

Last edited by C9H20; 05-29-2018 at 12:55 PM..
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  #5564  
Old 05-29-2018, 01:07 PM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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The whole "Undead are loyal to those who raised them" is honestly a bullshit point to begin with.

The Scourge and the Ebon Blade already give all the evidence you need that those who raised you, even when a god-tier-necromancer, will eventually come to be resented by those who were raised.

It's yet another Plot contrivance Blizzard shat out to try and make Sylvanas's absolute villany even come off as beleivable
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  #5565  
Old 05-29-2018, 03:00 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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So, that Magni comic is great. Papa Magni is great.
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  #5566  
Old 05-29-2018, 03:43 PM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I think this is more likely: the story is written from the Alliance's perspective. The Horde are the villains, the Alliance are the heroes. For all of the pretense about it meaning more than that, it's what we've seen in Cata and beyond.

That's good, by the way, for no one. Horde bias complaints are born when Blizzard tries to create inciting incidents and tension intended to build up the bad guy as a threat. Blizzard beats down Night Elves some more, the rest of the Alliance struggles to beat the Horde back. We build to the inevitable confrontation between good and evil.

Then huge portions of the Horde fanbase remind the developers that they didn't sign up for this, and once again demonstrate that people don't usually like to be the bad guy. The villian is defeated, Horde players are (necessarily) given an out. Arc over.

Except it's not over. Back to one. Because it was so well liked the last time.
That's where you (and/or they) are wrong.

They DID sign up for this.

You wanted to play the edgy anti-hero. The bad guy. The outcast. The emo-douchebag on a power trip. Whatever your motivation, you selected the faction/race that was clearly *not* the good guy.

Which is fine. Embrace that shit. But quit acting like you're the hero in the story. You're the asshole. Deal with it.
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  #5567  
Old 05-29-2018, 04:19 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Tirisfal has been updated, the mission text about the alliance controlling it does not seem to be accurate any more, it's still controlled by the Horde with no alliance NPCs at all.

https://imgur.com/a/j0pBvKv

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That's where you (and/or they) are wrong.

They DID sign up for this.

You wanted to play the edgy anti-hero. The bad guy. The outcast. The emo-douchebag on a power trip. Whatever your motivation, you selected the faction/race that was clearly *not* the good guy.

Which is fine. Embrace that shit. But quit acting like you're the hero in the story. You're the asshole. Deal with it.

I think that's the problem, people have very different definitions of "anti-hero" and usually it's not the same as a bad guy. What you're describing is an anti-villain. For example, Illidan as he is characterized in Legion is an "anti-hero" but not a villain. Illidan in TBC (prior to the retcons to his actions and character in the novel) was an anti-villain.

The Horde in Warcraft III and vanilla were anti-heros, much more grey and #savage than the Alliance, but still technically good guys. The Horde as portrayed in Warcraft I and II were anti-villains (except for Gul'dan and his followers who were just regular villains). The confusion between anti-hero and anti-villain on people's parts (and Blizzard's themselves as you could argue the people upset about the Horde being the bad guys are ones who were drawn to their anti-hero portrayal in Warcraft III and vanilla).

Last edited by Insane Guy of Doom; 05-29-2018 at 04:44 PM..
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  #5568  
Old 05-29-2018, 04:43 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Well that's bullshit. So much for "taking" Lordaeron.

But no bias right hurr hurr
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #5569  
Old 05-29-2018, 04:45 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Well that's bullshit. So much for "taking" Lordaeron.

But no bias right hurr hurr
I've got to agree with you this time, that is pretty bad. It also adds evidence to the idea that the mission table lore is not canon.
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  #5570  
Old 05-29-2018, 04:50 PM
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I've got to agree with you this time, that is pretty bad. It also adds evidence to the idea that the mission table lore is not canon.
I knew. When I saw the "War campaigns" I knew.

Alliance blow up one ship. Horde blow up a giant fleet, steal the body of Jaina's brother to res as a dick-waving mindless Forsaken later on and steal a tide artifact with the help of now forsaken kul tirans who feel no regrets whatsoever at betraying and murdering their own people despite being killed by the Forsaken themselves.
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #5571  
Old 05-29-2018, 04:54 PM
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They may have it there because the Alliance keeps Darkshore, but Teldrassil would be the Tirisfal equivalent since there is more to that zone than just Darnassus. So yeah, not equal, I agree.
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  #5572  
Old 05-29-2018, 05:56 PM
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They may have it there because the Alliance keeps Darkshore, but Teldrassil would be the Tirisfal equivalent since there is more to that zone than just Darnassus. So yeah, not equal, I agree.
One of the prepatch events is Darkshore being updated with Horde/Alliance conflict, isn't it?

I wonder if that change to the zone will become permanent, and is just not fully activated in the Beta.
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Old 05-29-2018, 06:07 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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One of the prepatch events is Darkshore being updated with Horde/Alliance conflict, isn't it?

I wonder if that change to the zone will become permanent, and is just not fully activated in the Beta.
There was some datamined text for the adventure journal which referred to the Darkshore content as "limited time only" so there probably won't be any changes.
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  #5574  
Old 05-29-2018, 06:30 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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The Forsaken are just a Race of Snowflakes.

1. Get easy mass Necromancy with complimentary loyal minions without the drawback of the raised dead being your undead slaves.

2. Get to be mass murdering edgelords but have a tragic backstory of the Alliance being mean to them that excuses them.

3. The devs repeatedly contrive excuses for the Forsaken to not be held accountable for their actions. Complete with the Argent Crusade just sitting back as Cataclysm happens.

Last edited by Cacofonix; 05-29-2018 at 06:52 PM..
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  #5575  
Old 05-29-2018, 07:17 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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There was some datamined text for the adventure journal which referred to the Darkshore content as "limited time only" so there probably won't be any changes.
Maybe the actual content (World Quests, battles) will be temporary, but the zone is phased in a new state like Tirisfal? At least, I hope so.
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