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  #5926  
Old 06-29-2018, 08:57 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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I just find it amusing that the Horde fanbase whining about how their fee fee's are hurt from the Teldrassil story get what they want and Blizzard constantly makes revisions to their story while ignoring Alliance criticisms of the same story

no bias though /s
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  #5927  
Old 06-29-2018, 10:40 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Just a thought, what if the Night Elves conquered/reclaimed Suramar for their new Capital. It’s not as if Nightborne players actually use it for anything............

Would that help Night Elf fans?
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  #5928  
Old 06-29-2018, 11:04 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Just a thought, what if the Night Elves conquered/reclaimed Suramar for their new Capital. It’s not as if Nightborne players actually use it for anything............

Would that help Night Elf fans?
Depends. Normally I would just toss this out because I don't like the idea of just offloading feeling awful onto some other community, but for the sake of argument, let's consider it.

Consider scenario 1, one where you have quests and content dedicated to it. Provided that it shows the Night Elves as competent and threatening - able to stand up to their enemies and come out victorious - it could. (Horde invasions do this rather well: they build them up and they give payoff for their actions. When you finish Horde questing, regardless of how you feel morally, you tend to feel powerful and able to take on the world.)

Now scenario 2: Blizzard does it in a mission table mission, implies it, does it off screen or puts it in a tweet. Sure it would help that there is a victory, but that would seriously impair its effect. Night Elves would still be seen as incompetent and helpless, because that is the most featured, context rich presentation of them. This is why regaining Ashenvale in MOP didn't undo the harm rendered by Cataclysm, especially when they wouldn't update the zone to reflect the changes. Sure, it happened, but no one saw it - and people are still confused over where the zone ended up after MOP because of it.

To again paraphrase Lindsay Ellis: framing and aesthetics supercede the rest of the text. Always. Always. Always.

----

To consider another scenario, let's say they came out tomorrow and said that this was going to be the Night Elves' revenge. That they would lash out at Suramar. Would I believe that I would be satisfied with this? Well, no. I don't trust Blizzard and I don't see why I should. They have strung fans like myself along for years for a redemption that will never come, outright lying about it on occasion (5.1 comes to mind). If they were serious about that I would expect to see some investment, like showing the Night Elves as being as competent and threatening in their defense as the Forsaken appear to be in Lordaeron, and/or, a post quest that verifies the canonical nature of the Kalimdor mission tables - even a small counterattack would have swung this dramatically. But when the chips are down, they don't make that investment - unless it comes time to show them as being weak, annoying, or useless. Then they'll go all out.

The Teldrassil scenario was my last run at the football. I expected better of them, but I can't say that I am terribly surprised, either. Trends that have marred Night Elf presentation for years are on full display here, and the whole affair cements with unmistakable clarity that those trends probably will not change.
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  #5929  
Old 06-29-2018, 12:08 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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I see the Burning of Teldrassil as the night elves' lowest point, yes.

But I think it can be the moment the curve starts to change and move upwards, leading to a night elf renaissance.

I hope BfA is followed by a soft reboot of the franchise, with a new status quo after a short timeskip.

I'm too optimistic? Yes, probably.
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  #5930  
Old 06-29-2018, 01:15 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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I feel like taking an enemy city, even one players aren’t actually using, is too big for a simple table mission. It would be an entire patch’s worth of content, or at least a third of a patch, along with Horde content (helping the forsaken find a new home) and maybe a raid or a dungeon or two.

I’d have Night Elves staging in Val’sharah, then moving down into Suramar. Breaking the lines of Blood Elves, fighting off High Mountain Tauren at their flank, eventually invading and occupying the city. Then you end up with world quests fighting Nightborne guerrillas. You’re a more benevolent conqueror than the Legion was, and some of the Nightborne NPCs might even collaborate with you, remembering what Tyrande did for them.

In the end, both Alliance and Horde get benefits from Suramar. Horde gets an allied Race, Night Elves get a new capital that is extremely culturally relevant to them.
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  #5931  
Old 06-29-2018, 02:58 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Saurfang is such a bad character.
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  #5932  
Old 06-29-2018, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Just a thought, what if the Night Elves conquered/reclaimed Suramar for their new Capital. It’s not as if Nightborne players actually use it for anything............

Would that help Night Elf fans?
It wouldn’t make any real gameplay sense to be so far away, and no it wouldn’t make fans happy.
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  #5933  
Old 06-30-2018, 02:22 AM
Sa'danak Sa'danak is offline

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I see the Burning of Teldrassil as the night elves' lowest point, yes.

But I think it can be the moment the curve starts to change and move upwards, leading to a night elf renaissance.

I hope BfA is followed by a soft reboot of the franchise, with a new status quo after a short timeskip.

I'm too optimistic? Yes, probably.
I cannot possibly see how this could get better.

Even setting aside Malfurion being overpowered easily and then only living because Saurfang decided his code of honour suddenly conflicts with killing the most dangerous military target we're still getting the exactly the same problems with Tyrandes arc that've been around since memorial.

Like, we know the entire attack was planned to be while she was away so they already had a good excuse for her to not be there when it burnt down yet they chose to magic her up out of nowhere....just so she can whine, grab Malfurion and run away when ordered to by Saurfang.

There are so, so many ways to have done that better by the Night Elves. Hell it would have actually been BETTER if Malfurion had died and Tyrande wasn't even there then showing them off like that. They specifically railroaded the story to get her there just so she could be a plot sidepiece to her man and then run away instead of fighting. The 2 biggest complaints about her character in one single sequence.

Normally i loathe the way the Alliance playerbase loves to whine but here i don't blame Kyalin at all for their reaction. If this doesnt prove the current team behind the Night Elves writing is unsalvageably out of touch then nothing will.
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  #5934  
Old 06-30-2018, 04:28 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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After watching the battle go down, I can't say I'm terribly happy with how this is actually portrayed either. Feels a bit too rushed and sudden, with no proper strong portrayal by major characters as putting up a powerful defense before being pushed out. Kind of a far cry from our invasion of Lordaeron which will feel like a much more epic battle.

All I can say is I hope Blizzard will let Tyrande have some cool moments later in this expansion, since it just feels like all the opportunity with making her a cooler character are just going to waste and it really does feel like she needs a writer or members of the design team to take a shine to her like is the case with Anduin and Sylvanas.
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  #5935  
Old 06-30-2018, 06:44 AM
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I cannot possibly see how this could get better.

Even setting aside Malfurion being overpowered easily and then only living because Saurfang decided his code of honour suddenly conflicts with killing the most dangerous military target we're still getting the exactly the same problems with Tyrandes arc that've been around since memorial.

Like, we know the entire attack was planned to be while she was away so they already had a good excuse for her to not be there when it burnt down yet they chose to magic her up out of nowhere....just so she can whine, grab Malfurion and run away when ordered to by Saurfang.

There are so, so many ways to have done that better by the Night Elves. Hell it would have actually been BETTER if Malfurion had died and Tyrande wasn't even there then showing them off like that. They specifically railroaded the story to get her there just so she could be a plot sidepiece to her man and then run away instead of fighting. The 2 biggest complaints about her character in one single sequence.

Normally i loathe the way the Alliance playerbase loves to whine but here i don't blame Kyalin at all for their reaction. If this doesnt prove the current team behind the Night Elves writing is unsalvageably out of touch then nothing will.
Forget the War of Thorns. It's being hastily put together and seems like a big failure to me. This spotlight on Sylvanas/Malfurion is a huge mistake, we should be focusing on battle fronts and different commanders and strategies.

When I say about things potentially becoming better, it's about where the night elves go from there. They lost their homeland. They are now exiles. This has a huge potential because you can start anew. It's one of the reasons I like high elves so much, they have so much potential for a rebirth as a race, either seeking new paths or reaffirming who they are against all odds. I just like these kinds of stories, in which you lose everything and have to rise up from the ashes.

Of course, it all depends on Blizzard caring. They failed terribly with the high elves, maybe they'll do it right with the night elves.
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  #5936  
Old 06-30-2018, 06:50 AM
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I see the Burning of Teldrassil as the night elves' lowest point, yes.

But I think it can be the moment the curve starts to change and move upwards, leading to a night elf renaissance.

I hope BfA is followed by a soft reboot of the franchise, with a new status quo after a short timeskip.

I'm too optimistic? Yes, probably.
If they were to relocate to Val'Sharah, probably, maybe. But my money is on EK lands and probably somewhere not that populated for strategic gameplay reasons.

I am not liking how the story develops different in both sides of the faction war. It reminds me a lot of how the Jade Forest happened in Pandaria, where the Horde only saw the Alliance being dicks to Pandas on the north, while the Alliance saw Forsaken shenanigans on the south, and the players never confronted the shadier aspects of their own faction. BfA should have me excited for being a hits collection of Cata and Pandaria, but not really
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  #5937  
Old 06-30-2018, 07:52 AM
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If they were to relocate to Val'Sharah, probably, maybe. But my money is on EK lands and probably somewhere not that populated for strategic gameplay reasons.
Imagining a "soft reboot" expansion, I'd center them in Duskwood, with a small capital in Twilight Grove. Most Duskwood inhabitants have been killed in Legion anyway.

But I'd also make them somewhat scattered. They'd try to settle in other places as well.
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  #5938  
Old 06-30-2018, 08:13 AM
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Just a thought, what if the Night Elves conquered/reclaimed Suramar for their new Capital. It’s not as if Nightborne players actually use it for anything............

Would that help Night Elf fans?
I for one would gladly take Suramar as a replacement for Darnassus. Move over Horde mage city is now my city.
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  #5939  
Old 06-30-2018, 08:22 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Forget the War of Thorns. It's being hastily put together and seems like a big failure to me. This spotlight on Sylvanas/Malfurion is a huge mistake, we should be focusing on battle fronts and different commanders and strategies.

When I say about things potentially becoming better, it's about where the night elves go from there. They lost their homeland. They are now exiles. This has a huge potential because you can start anew. It's one of the reasons I like high elves so much, they have so much potential for a rebirth as a race, either seeking new paths or reaffirming who they are against all odds. I just like these kinds of stories, in which you lose everything and have to rise up from the ashes.

Of course, it all depends on Blizzard caring. They failed terribly with the high elves, maybe they'll do it right with the night elves.
I know it's a bit of a sore subject, but I still think that the future of High Elves is with the Ren'dorei. I know that's not the outcome that everyone wanted, but the fact that they're being written as being almost exactly like the Silver Covenant just with more of a Void theme in the Alliance war campaign leads me to believe that Blizzard is responding to the feedback about them and solving the issue in their own way that people are either going to have to accept or just quit the game over.

Needless to say though, I definitely hope Blizzard does right by Night Elf fans in the future at some point. Same with the Void Elves. There's so many things they can do to turn this all around but what will really matter is if they actually cash in on it.
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  #5940  
Old 06-30-2018, 09:04 AM
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I know it's a bit of a sore subject, but I still think that the future of High Elves is with the Ren'dorei. I know that's not the outcome that everyone wanted, but the fact that they're being written as being almost exactly like the Silver Covenant just with more of a Void theme in the Alliance war campaign leads me to believe that Blizzard is responding to the feedback about them and solving the issue in their own way that people are either going to have to accept or just quit the game over.
My main problem with the ren'dorei is their introduction. Much of the rejection towards void elves could have been avoided (pun intended) if the recruitment storyline had more care put into it.

And there's still a ton of basic questions about them that Blizzard hasn't answered, and no new playable race should need to wait that long to be fleshed out.

About the future, I'm not sure what Blizzard will do with high/void elves. I'd guess they'll eventually be merged into a single, but I don't see how that could happen right now.
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  #5941  
Old 06-30-2018, 09:27 AM
Sa'danak Sa'danak is offline

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Forget the War of Thorns. It's being hastily put together and seems like a big failure to me. This spotlight on Sylvanas/Malfurion is a huge mistake, we should be focusing on battle fronts and different commanders and strategies.

When I say about things potentially becoming better, it's about where the night elves go from there. They lost their homeland. They are now exiles. This has a huge potential because you can start anew. It's one of the reasons I like high elves so much, they have so much potential for a rebirth as a race, either seeking new paths or reaffirming who they are against all odds. I just like these kinds of stories, in which you lose everything and have to rise up from the ashes.

Of course, it all depends on Blizzard caring. They failed terribly with the high elves, maybe they'll do it right with the night elves.
My point is they just provided absolute proof that, at best, they fundamentally don't understand what people want out of the characters while at worst that's their idea of how they should be. Tyrande has been depicted with exactly the same problem over and over again for over a decade. Does that not say something?

The Night Elves could go on to conquer Azeroth solo from here and it wouldnt mean anything at all if they can't even get something so simple as letting the factions leadership show the attributes that drew people to them in the first place.

How can things get better when the writers clearly no ability to even grasp that theres an issue?
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  #5942  
Old 06-30-2018, 10:48 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
Forget the War of Thorns. It's being hastily put together and seems like a big failure to me. This spotlight on Sylvanas/Malfurion is a huge mistake, we should be focusing on battle fronts and different commanders and strategies.

When I say about things potentially becoming better, it's about where the night elves go from there. They lost their homeland. They are now exiles. This has a huge potential because you can start anew. It's one of the reasons I like high elves so much, they have so much potential for a rebirth as a race, either seeking new paths or reaffirming who they are against all odds. I just like these kinds of stories, in which you lose everything and have to rise up from the ashes.

Of course, it all depends on Blizzard caring. They failed terribly with the high elves, maybe they'll do it right with the night elves.
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Imagining a "soft reboot" expansion, I'd center them in Duskwood, with a small capital in Twilight Grove. Most Duskwood inhabitants have been killed in Legion anyway.

But I'd also make them somewhat scattered. They'd try to settle in other places as well.
This is not an acceptable outcome.

I know that people who generally are not Night Elf fans like to claim that Night Elf fans should be satisfied with this, but most of us did not play Night Elves to go from being a strong, independent, and culturally different race on another continent to being a weak, dependent, and homogenized collection of de-facto human vassals. If they wanted to work with an entirely new identity, they should have done it with an entirely different race with an established history (such as the High/Void elves), instead of insisting on demolishing the history and identity that drew people to the playable race in the first place.

If I wanted to play a human, I would have done that. If I wanted to play a refugee or someone trying to live in someone else's homelands, there are actually options for that (no, I don't mean Gilneans - what they did to the Worgen was criminal) which baked that identity in the role from the start and let people rise from there - instead of ripping from the player a dearly held identity. I didn't want to play those options - I wanted to play *this one*, and Blizzard has taken that away from me.

There is a concept in gaming called hypernormalization. I recommend Strat-Edgy's video on it if you want a better understanding of the concept, but the reason I mention it is because I see it in how the Alliance has been, and is now formed around the High King. When it was mentioned at first, communities like the Night Elf community railed hard against it, and got Blizzard to clarify that it's actually a Supreme Allied Commander position. Now it's in substance hereditary. In form, supposedly Anduin has to get approval from other leaders. Is Tyrande going to tell him no if her people are living on human lands?

I don't believe in rewarding hypernormalization, and besides, as I said, this isn't what I signed up for. You can wax lyrical to me about why you think a story of a people who lose everything and now have to be refugees (Blood Elves already did that, by the way, and they did it well both narratively and with player experience) is a story you'd love to see me go through - but you can't convince me to be happy with playing it. Games are supposed to be fun - and this is not fun.
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  #5943  
Old 06-30-2018, 12:11 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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The devs did not care about the NEs beyond having a stand-in for High Elves, still don't, and never will. That's how it is
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Old 06-30-2018, 12:42 PM
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This is not an acceptable outcome.
Chill out, it's just the spark of an idea. It wouldn't be just "Night elves living happily in Duskwood. The end".

I'm of the opinion that a story's past shouldn't be changed. You always move forward. If things were dictated by me, Teldrassil would never have existed, really. Night elf starting zone would be Moonglade or Hyjal.

But Teldrassil exists, and is going to be destroyed, and I assume Kalimdor is going to be Horde-controlled from now on. The challenge is: how do you take that setting and make a night elf renaissance in which they start to rediscover what made them great and rise again?

I like this type of challenge.

So, the start of my idea is to have their civilian population moved to Duskwood and start from there. This is not the conclusion of my would-be story, it's just the setup. But I'm not going to spend dozens of hours writing an essay in a foreign language about what I would do in detail. This fictional universe is not in my hands anyway, so all my fanfictioning is useless. I'm just trying to spark discussion.

So, how do you take a shitty story's conclusion and move from there to something great?
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Old 06-30-2018, 12:44 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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War of Thorns?
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Old 06-30-2018, 12:45 PM
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The devs did not care about the NEs beyond having a stand-in for High Elves, still don't, and never will. That's how it is
Yeah, this has been clear for ages at this point. The idea of the Night Elves that a lot of people fell in love with was basically scrapped when Blizz decided to make them Alliance rather than Horde and started shifting them from savage wood elves to purple High Elves.
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Old 06-30-2018, 12:56 PM
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War of Thorns?
It's the official name of the war that ends with Teldrassil burned.

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Yeah, this has been clear for ages at this point. The idea of the Night Elves that a lot of people fell in love with was basically scrapped when Blizz decided to make them Alliance rather than Horde and started shifting them from savage wood elves to purple High Elves.
Indeed. Alliance was doubly screwed by losing high elves AND the original night elves.
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  #5948  
Old 06-30-2018, 01:41 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Even in WC3, I wouldn't necessarily call Night Elves savage wood elves so much as they were just very effective and fearsome in battle. Otherwise, the real savage Night Elves were the ones in the concept art that were more tribal, lived in mountains, favored axe weapons, and had spirit beasts with rites of passage attached to them.

Though yes, I will agree that it was perhaps a mistake to put Night Elves on the Alliance and High Elves on the Horde. It's likely been part of the problem for what's been happening recently with the elf races.
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  #5949  
Old 06-30-2018, 02:06 PM
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The WC3 Night Elves were "good" Drow. Not Wood Elves.
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  #5950  
Old 06-30-2018, 02:27 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Even in WC3, I wouldn't necessarily call Night Elves savage wood elves so much as they were just very effective and fearsome in battle. Otherwise, the real savage Night Elves were the ones in the concept art that were more tribal, lived in mountains, favored axe weapons, and had spirit beasts with rites of passage attached to them.

Though yes, I will agree that it was perhaps a mistake to put Night Elves on the Alliance and High Elves on the Horde. It's likely been part of the problem for what's been happening recently with the elf races.
I will never not disagree with this. I'm lukewarm on whether they should have joined a faction or what faction they should have joined - but they didn't make the writers do what the writers would do to them.
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