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View Poll Results: Should the Orc vs Human dynamic continue? | |||
Yes! It's the foundation of the whole franchise! |
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7 | 12.96% |
No! It's the same old thing that should have ended long ago! |
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39 | 72.22% |
Meh. I have no strong feelings one way or the other. |
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8 | 14.81% |
Voters: 54. You may not vote on this poll |
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#26
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![]() Eternal Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,592
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![]() Agreed.
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#27
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![]() Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,561
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![]() For me a problem with the orc/human rivalry, and by extension the faction rivalry as it stands with them so prominent within it, is that both are steeped in an artificial "whatever else the world does, Red vs. Blue must prevail" mentality rather than an organic result of events in the WarCraft universe at large.
Every time they state that they really don't want any sort of cooperation between the factions, it feels like they're telling us parts of the story that many of us enjoyed like most of WC3, the Might of Kalimdor and even the Stair of Destiny were all somehow mistakes that they regret ever putting into the lore. Even the off-screen, NPC-described arrival of Horde and Alliance armies at the Dark Portal to relieve the hard-pressed Argent Dawn - something that never even tangibly occurred in the game world - evokes more epic imagery to me than one more orc and one more human trying to bash each others skulls in for the same old reasons. Chief among those reasons being "they're an orc and a human; that's how it works!" It's infuriating to feel like it's implied that such interesting and - though I hate even saying it - fist pumping moments of unified glory and victory in WarCraft were on some level just plain wrong and counter to the intended themes of the world, and that we're supposed to write that stuff off as pointless and embrace the idea that the people who want to fight the other faction because "they're not us" are the real meat of the story. Not to mention, it's created a nightmare of incongruous quest portrayals pertaining to our characters. Am I supposed to be the flag-waving patriot who unquestioningly obeys orders that make the faction conflict worse? Am I the champion of Pandaria who's standing at Taran Zhu's shoulder as he berates the factions for trying to start a fight on the doorstep of the Throne of Thunder? Am I supposed to be the same guy when helping Garrosh as I am when helping Vol'jin? Have I learned anything in Pandaria, or am I gleefully spilling blood on the sahores of Krasarang? Either I'm being forced to play as a character who's as two-faced as they come and playing both sides against the middle and only really pretending to care about Pandaria, or they're essentially trying to funnel a lot of incompatible storylines through one protagonist, which makes the whole thing very confusing. In a way, the whole thing made the lead-in to the Purging of Dalaran feel kind of insulting to me. Everyone made a big deal about Jaina asking the player what they thought she should do about Dalaran's stance of neutrality, pretending it was some kind of real choice. Only it just boiled down to "Who cares what you said, you're slaughtering blood elves regardless, so just suck it!" What the hell was even the point of asking if my answer meant less than nothing? It's why as much as I enjoyed Pandaria itself, I've dreaded the arrival of the factions botching things up sicne 5.0. In Pandaria, I was saving the day. I was quelling the Sha, repelling the Mantid, and protecting the Pandaren from the Mogu. Even in seeking Anduin as Alliance, I was doing the right thing for reasons that fit with my character independent of some officer with a tabard telling me to do it. In the context of hat had come before, I was in character. Yet as early as the intrusive "knock that stuff off and get over here" quest leading to the Jade Forest conclusion, I felt like the Horde and Alliance existed expressly to divert my attention away from the important things and make me waste time on their crap. Suddenly I'm standing by while my allies screw things up, and while anyone else doing the damage they did would have me doing quests to kill them, being "my faction" just had me standing by and letting it happen. The faction war makes me feel like I'm not part of the world. Like the acts of heroism are forced upon me and I'm being celebrated for enabling things that I'm usually expected to punish others for doing. Like the world's just "happening" around me and I'm being congratulated for letting it happen rather than actually doing something about it. Last edited by ARM3481; 07-07-2013 at 01:50 AM.. |
#28
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![]() The Sun King Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Donetsk, Occupied Ukraine
Posts: 11,115
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![]() You know what's worse?
None of Garrosh's "big bad evil" moments would have been possible without the player's assistance. And yet Vol'jin treats the player character as the best rebel bud forever. Mercenary mindset at its finest. |
#29
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![]() Elune Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Slaughtered Lamb
Posts: 22,046
BattleTag: Grimtale67#1407
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![]() Quote:
I think I can only remember Theramore and the Dominance Offensive questline, not sure what else though. |
#30
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![]() Arch-Druid Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto, Ca.
Posts: 1,388
BattleTag: Nyarsz#1553
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![]() As long as it doesnt affect other races development, I dont mind.
But it does. |
#31
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![]() The Sun King Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Donetsk, Occupied Ukraine
Posts: 11,115
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![]() Quote:
Theramore, the Bell, the Dark Heart of Pandaria discovery - all were made possible because of the player characters championing Garrosh's ambitions. |
#32
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![]() Elune Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Slaughtered Lamb
Posts: 22,046
BattleTag: Grimtale67#1407
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![]() Quote:
Although, from the justifications I keep hearing about Theramore, it seems like some people actually treat that as a not-so bad moment because it was a military target. I think Kosak's tweets about it have only diluted it further, as well. |
#33
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![]() Elune Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203
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![]() Arm described it perfectly, as always.
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#34
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![]() Arch-Druid Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,134
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![]() Quote:
Sure, Daelin died, but there were still Kul Tiras agents in Durotar, and the flames were not doused. |
#35
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![]() Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,561
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![]() Quote:
In other words, Garrosh probably bloodied the Horde army to make a dishonorable tactic more palatable to his troops. He even insisted upon the other Horde races sending troops (despite the Forsaken and blood elves not exactly being geographically convenient for an overland march on Theramore), in all likelihood to make sure they shared in the losses to better sell them on his methods and the results. Politically it might be considered kind of clever, but it's also pretty monstrous and probably helped to guarantee that Baine would eventually join Vol'jin's rebellion by making it clear that Garrosh doesn't care how many Horde lives it costs to win his war. Last edited by ARM3481; 07-07-2013 at 02:26 AM.. |
#36
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![]() The Sun King Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Donetsk, Occupied Ukraine
Posts: 11,115
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#37
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![]() Arch-Druid Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,134
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It's not entirely honorable to bomb a city that still stood after you assaulted it from a Horde perspective. |
#38
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![]() The Sun King Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Donetsk, Occupied Ukraine
Posts: 11,115
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Given that now he's blamed for Cairne's assassination of all things, Theramore must be pretty high on the list of grudges. |
#39
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When people say it ended in War3, they're referring to the end of RoC. |
#40
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![]() The Sun King Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Donetsk, Occupied Ukraine
Posts: 11,115
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![]() Well, no, the Founding of Durotar actually resolved it - the Horde managed to defend itself against Daelin, but showed honor and left Theramore intact as soon as the threat was gone.
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#41
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![]() Arch-Druid Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,134
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![]() Quote:
At that exact time, Daelin represented the entire Alliance and declared war on the Horde. The conflict restarted at that time. |
#42
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![]() The Sun King Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Donetsk, Occupied Ukraine
Posts: 11,115
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![]() Quote:
It was never stated that he "represented the entire Alliance". |
#43
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![]() Arch-Druid Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,134
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#44
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![]() Trade Baroness - Moderator Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,947
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![]() Quote:
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#45
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![]() Arch-Druid Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,134
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![]() They didn't because they were locked in war with the Scourge and the Legion. They were all over the Eastern Kingdoms at that time, so Kul Tiras was the only kingdom that didn't lose much in the Third War except for Durotar.
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#46
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![]() Trade Baroness - Moderator Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,947
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![]() You forget Ironforge and SW. Gilneas and Stromgarde weren't members. The only ones fighting against the Scourge and Legion stragglers were Dalaran and Lordaeron. Now, Jaina had Antonidas's approval and Lordaeron was razed, so not only is Kul Tiras not the only strong Kingdom but also the only one that entertained the idea of prolonging the war against the Horde. A foolish decision, considering that it's sister Kingdoms were still harassed by the living dead.
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#47
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![]() Arch-Druid Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,134
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![]() Quote:
You're also forgetting that Ironforge was actively supporting Lordaeron in their struggles against the Scourge since they sent dwarven help to aid Garithos. That proves they WERE fighting the Scourge. Stormwind wasn't even mentioned much in game and didn't appear at all so I'm not sure what happened there. They were probably rebuilding. |
#48
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![]() Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,561
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![]() It's hard to really consider Daelin representative of the whole Alliance when his troops are considered deserters and traitors of the Alliance in WoW, some of whom are outright confronted and attacked by Alliance players for sowing dissent and trying to destabilizing Theramore.
Like it or not, the Alliance chose to support Jaina as representative of their interests in eastern Kalimdor rather than backing the forces of Daelin who were still based out of Tiragarde and trying to attack the Horde, and who compounded their isolation by actively betraying and attempting to undermine Theramore from within. Quote:
Due to the multi-national funding and upkeep of the internment camps and the pursuit of Thrall's army, there were probably a lot of troops deployed by the various Alliance states throughout Lordaeron to begin with. The nature of RoC's and TFT's portrayals of the Third War made it appear that Lordaeron was isolated and alone, inhabited only by desperate survivors, rather than host to outside aid that was sent sent by other Alliance kingdoms to dislodge the undead. Last edited by ARM3481; 07-07-2013 at 03:40 AM.. |
#49
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![]() Arch-Druid Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,134
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![]() Quote:
It doesn't really matter if the other Alliance nations supported his genocidal campaign because the flames were already there. When a military commander of an organization declares war on another state, then the two organizations are at war. |
#50
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![]() The Sun King Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Donetsk, Occupied Ukraine
Posts: 11,115
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![]() Quote:
The remaining Alliance forces under Jaina Proudmoore settled in southern Kalimdor. Off the eastern coast of Dustwallow Marsh, they built the rugged port city of Theramore. There, the humans and their dwarven allies worked to survive in a land that would always be hostile to them. Though the defenders of Durotar and Theramore kept the tentative truce with one another, the fragile colonial serenity was not meant to last. The peace between the orcs and humans was shattered by the arrival of a massive Alliance fleet in Kalimdor. The mighty fleet, under the command of Grand Admiral Daelin Proudmoore (Jaina’s father), had left Lordaeron before Arthas destroyed the kingdom. Having sailed for many grueling months, Admiral Proudmoore was searching for any Alliance survivors he could find. Proudmoore’s armada posed a serious threat to the stability of the region. As a renowned hero of the Second War, Jaina’s father was a staunch enemy of the Horde, and he was determined to destroy Durotar before the orcs could gain a foothold in the land. The Grand Admiral forced Jaina to make a terrible decision: support him in battle against the orcs and betray her newfound allies, or fight her own father to maintain the fragile peace that the Alliance and the Horde had finally attained. After much soul-searching, Jaina chose the latter and helped Thrall defeat her crazed father. Unfortunately Admiral Proudmoore died in battle before Jaina could reconcile with him or prove that orcs were no longer bloodthirsty monsters. For her loyalty, the orcs allowed Jaina’s forces to return home safely to Theramore. ... Jaina Proudmoore - Jaina Proudmoore is the most powerful human sorceress alive. A one-time ally of Prince Arthas, Jaina saw the fall of Lordaeron firsthand. Traveling to Kalimdor, Jaina swore to defeat the Burning Legion and its sinister agents any way she could. Joining forces with the night elves and even the orcish Horde, Jaina helped defeat the demon Archimonde and banish the Legion forever. She then gathered the human survivors in Kalimdor and founded the port city of Theramore. There she rules over the tattered remnants of the Alliance and hopes to reunite the distant human kingdoms once more. |
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