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View Poll Results: Should the Orc vs Human dynamic continue?
Yes! It's the foundation of the whole franchise! 7 12.96%
No! It's the same old thing that should have ended long ago! 39 72.22%
Meh. I have no strong feelings one way or the other. 8 14.81%
Voters: 54. You may not vote on this poll

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  #26  
Old 07-07-2013, 12:36 AM
CoDimus the Staunch CoDimus the Staunch is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
Should have ended with WCIII. The plot changed and the Legion is the major threat. This racial conflict is only dragging everything down with it.
Agreed.
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  #27  
Old 07-07-2013, 01:46 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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For me a problem with the orc/human rivalry, and by extension the faction rivalry as it stands with them so prominent within it, is that both are steeped in an artificial "whatever else the world does, Red vs. Blue must prevail" mentality rather than an organic result of events in the WarCraft universe at large.

Every time they state that they really don't want any sort of cooperation between the factions, it feels like they're telling us parts of the story that many of us enjoyed like most of WC3, the Might of Kalimdor and even the Stair of Destiny were all somehow mistakes that they regret ever putting into the lore. Even the off-screen, NPC-described arrival of Horde and Alliance armies at the Dark Portal to relieve the hard-pressed Argent Dawn - something that never even tangibly occurred in the game world - evokes more epic imagery to me than one more orc and one more human trying to bash each others skulls in for the same old reasons. Chief among those reasons being "they're an orc and a human; that's how it works!"

It's infuriating to feel like it's implied that such interesting and - though I hate even saying it - fist pumping moments of unified glory and victory in WarCraft were on some level just plain wrong and counter to the intended themes of the world, and that we're supposed to write that stuff off as pointless and embrace the idea that the people who want to fight the other faction because "they're not us" are the real meat of the story.

Not to mention, it's created a nightmare of incongruous quest portrayals pertaining to our characters. Am I supposed to be the flag-waving patriot who unquestioningly obeys orders that make the faction conflict worse? Am I the champion of Pandaria who's standing at Taran Zhu's shoulder as he berates the factions for trying to start a fight on the doorstep of the Throne of Thunder? Am I supposed to be the same guy when helping Garrosh as I am when helping Vol'jin? Have I learned anything in Pandaria, or am I gleefully spilling blood on the sahores of Krasarang?

Either I'm being forced to play as a character who's as two-faced as they come and playing both sides against the middle and only really pretending to care about Pandaria, or they're essentially trying to funnel a lot of incompatible storylines through one protagonist, which makes the whole thing very confusing.

In a way, the whole thing made the lead-in to the Purging of Dalaran feel kind of insulting to me. Everyone made a big deal about Jaina asking the player what they thought she should do about Dalaran's stance of neutrality, pretending it was some kind of real choice. Only it just boiled down to "Who cares what you said, you're slaughtering blood elves regardless, so just suck it!"

What the hell was even the point of asking if my answer meant less than nothing?

It's why as much as I enjoyed Pandaria itself, I've dreaded the arrival of the factions botching things up sicne 5.0. In Pandaria, I was saving the day. I was quelling the Sha, repelling the Mantid, and protecting the Pandaren from the Mogu. Even in seeking Anduin as Alliance, I was doing the right thing for reasons that fit with my character independent of some officer with a tabard telling me to do it. In the context of hat had come before, I was in character. Yet as early as the intrusive "knock that stuff off and get over here" quest leading to the Jade Forest conclusion, I felt like the Horde and Alliance existed expressly to divert my attention away from the important things and make me waste time on their crap. Suddenly I'm standing by while my allies screw things up, and while anyone else doing the damage they did would have me doing quests to kill them, being "my faction" just had me standing by and letting it happen.

The faction war makes me feel like I'm not part of the world. Like the acts of heroism are forced upon me and I'm being celebrated for enabling things that I'm usually expected to punish others for doing. Like the world's just "happening" around me and I'm being congratulated for letting it happen rather than actually doing something about it.

Last edited by ARM3481; 07-07-2013 at 01:50 AM..
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  #28  
Old 07-07-2013, 01:54 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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You know what's worse?

None of Garrosh's "big bad evil" moments would have been possible without the player's assistance. And yet Vol'jin treats the player character as the best rebel bud forever.

Mercenary mindset at its finest.
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  #29  
Old 07-07-2013, 01:58 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
You know what's worse?

None of Garrosh's "big bad evil" moments would have been possible without the player's assistance. And yet Vol'jin treats the player character as the best rebel bud forever.

Mercenary mindset at its finest.
Which moments specifically, though?

I think I can only remember Theramore and the Dominance Offensive questline, not sure what else though.
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  #30  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:06 AM
Temo Temo is offline

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As long as it doesnt affect other races development, I dont mind.

But it does.
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  #31  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:08 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Which moments specifically, though?

I think I can only remember Theramore and the Dominance Offensive questline, not sure what else though.
Isn't that enough? Aren't these Garrosh's supremely "bad" moments?

Theramore, the Bell, the Dark Heart of Pandaria discovery - all were made possible because of the player characters championing Garrosh's ambitions.
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  #32  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:11 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Isn't that enough? Aren't these Garrosh's supremely "bad" moments?

Theramore, the Bell, the Dark Heart of Pandaria discovery - all were made possible because of the player characters championing Garrosh's ambitions.
Very much so, yes, I was merely curious.

Although, from the justifications I keep hearing about Theramore, it seems like some people actually treat that as a not-so bad moment because it was a military target. I think Kosak's tweets about it have only diluted it further, as well.
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  #33  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:11 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Arm described it perfectly, as always.
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  #34  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:14 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
Should have ended with WCIII. The plot changed and the Legion is the major threat. This racial conflict is only dragging everything down with it.
You're forgetting that in WarCraft III the conflict was still ongoing when Daelin was trying to wipe out the Horde in Durotar, so it wasn't over in WarCraft III.

Sure, Daelin died, but there were still Kul Tiras agents in Durotar, and the flames were not doused.
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  #35  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:24 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Although, from the justifications I keep hearing about Theramore, it seems like some people actually treat that as a not-so bad moment because it was a military target. I think Kosak's tweets about it have only diluted it further, as well.
Well, Horde-side at least, one of the problems with Theramore is that as "brilliant" as Garrosh's victory was, Baine makes it pretty clear that he wasted a lot of Horde lives against Theramore's walls pretty much so that the excessive body count would let him sell the victory as honorable and well-earned rather than a "cheat". Baine's pretty certain that as underhanded a weapon as it was in the first place, the bomb could have been deployed in a manner that didn't require huge piles of dead Horde at the city walls.

In other words, Garrosh probably bloodied the Horde army to make a dishonorable tactic more palatable to his troops.

He even insisted upon the other Horde races sending troops (despite the Forsaken and blood elves not exactly being geographically convenient for an overland march on Theramore), in all likelihood to make sure they shared in the losses to better sell them on his methods and the results.

Politically it might be considered kind of clever, but it's also pretty monstrous and probably helped to guarantee that Baine would eventually join Vol'jin's rebellion by making it clear that Garrosh doesn't care how many Horde lives it costs to win his war.

Last edited by ARM3481; 07-07-2013 at 02:26 AM..
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  #36  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:28 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Very much so, yes, I was merely curious.

Although, from the justifications I keep hearing about Theramore, it seems like some people actually treat that as a not-so bad moment because it was a military target. I think Kosak's tweets about it have only diluted it further, as well.
Well, one COULD write off Threamore as a "not-so-bad" moment, but in that case why villainize Garrosh at all?
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  #37  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:02 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Well, one COULD write off Threamore as a "not-so-bad" moment, but in that case why villainize Garrosh at all?
Theramore was a military target. Sure, Garrosh attacking it was perfectly legitimate, but he broke the Horde's code of honor he enforces himself.

It's not entirely honorable to bomb a city that still stood after you assaulted it from a Horde perspective.
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  #38  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:07 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Pixy View Post
Theramore was a military target. Sure, Garrosh attacking it was perfectly legitimate, but he broke the Horde's code of honor he enforces himself.

It's not entirely honorable to bomb a city that still stood after you assaulted it from a Horde perspective.
Right, I agree, but thinking like that is not very good for "Evil Garrosh" narrative, in which we are supposed to hate Garrosh for his deeds, including Theramore.

Given that now he's blamed for Cairne's assassination of all things, Theramore must be pretty high on the list of grudges.
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  #39  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:07 AM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Originally Posted by Pixy View Post
You're forgetting that in WarCraft III the conflict was still ongoing when Daelin was trying to wipe out the Horde in Durotar, so it wasn't over in WarCraft III.

Sure, Daelin died, but there were still Kul Tiras agents in Durotar, and the flames were not doused.
I suppose that's true from a literal perspective, but the Founding of Durotar is more of a tacked-on interquel between War3 and WoW than a true part of the story of War3.

When people say it ended in War3, they're referring to the end of RoC.
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  #40  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:09 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Well, no, the Founding of Durotar actually resolved it - the Horde managed to defend itself against Daelin, but showed honor and left Theramore intact as soon as the threat was gone.
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  #41  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:13 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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Well, no, the Founding of Durotar actually resolved it - the Horde managed to defend itself against Daelin, but showed honor and left Theramore intact as soon as the threat was gone.
But the threat wasn't gone. There were still Kul Tiras agents in Durotar, as depicted in WoW.

At that exact time, Daelin represented the entire Alliance and declared war on the Horde. The conflict restarted at that time.
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  #42  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:15 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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But the threat wasn't gone. There were still Kul Tiras agents in Durotar, as depicted in WoW.
The key part is "in WoW".

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At that exact time, Daelin represented the entire Alliance and declared war on the Horde. The conflict restarted at that time.
It was never stated that he "represented the entire Alliance".
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  #43  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:17 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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It was never stated that he "represented the entire Alliance".
But he did, in WarCraft III. He led what was the only stable human Kingdom at that time. Stormwind never appeared in WCIII, Lordaeron was in ashes and Dalaran was nearly completely destroyed. Daelin was basically the highest ranking member of the Alliance at that time therefore he represented the Alliance.
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  #44  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:20 AM
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But he did, in WarCraft III. He led what was the only stable human Kingdom at that time. Stormwind never appeared in WCIII, Lordaeron was in ashes and Dalaran was nearly completely destroyed. Daelin was basically the highest ranking member of the Alliance at that time therefore he represented the Alliance.
And yet the other states didn't care for his war one bit and all we had between TFT and Vanilla was a tenuous peace.
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  #45  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:22 AM
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And yet the other states didn't care for his war one bit and all we had between TFT and Vanilla was a tenuous peace.
They didn't because they were locked in war with the Scourge and the Legion. They were all over the Eastern Kingdoms at that time, so Kul Tiras was the only kingdom that didn't lose much in the Third War except for Durotar.
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  #46  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:28 AM
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They didn't because they were locked in war with the Scourge and the Legion. They were all over the Eastern Kingdoms at that time, so Kul Tiras was the only kingdom that didn't lose much in the Third War except for Durotar.
You forget Ironforge and SW. Gilneas and Stromgarde weren't members. The only ones fighting against the Scourge and Legion stragglers were Dalaran and Lordaeron. Now, Jaina had Antonidas's approval and Lordaeron was razed, so not only is Kul Tiras not the only strong Kingdom but also the only one that entertained the idea of prolonging the war against the Horde. A foolish decision, considering that it's sister Kingdoms were still harassed by the living dead.
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  #47  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:34 AM
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You forget Ironforge and SW. Gilneas and Stromgarde weren't members. The only ones fighting against the Scourge and Legion stragglers were Dalaran and Lordaeron. Now, Jaina had Antonidas's approval and Lordaeron was razed, so not only is Kul Tiras not the only strong Kingdom but also the only one that entertained the idea of prolonging the war against the Horde. A foolish decision, considering that it's sister Kingdoms were still harassed by the living dead.
And yet, the Alliance declared war on the Horde because Daelin held the titles King of Kul Tiras and Grand Admiral of the Alliance. He represented the Alliance because he was the only high-ranking Alliance commander still alive. He was probably the only remaining great Second War hero therefore he was the highest ranking member of the Alliance, and his actions represented the Alliance as well.

You're also forgetting that Ironforge was actively supporting Lordaeron in their struggles against the Scourge since they sent dwarven help to aid Garithos. That proves they WERE fighting the Scourge.

Stormwind wasn't even mentioned much in game and didn't appear at all so I'm not sure what happened there. They were probably rebuilding.
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  #48  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:35 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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It's hard to really consider Daelin representative of the whole Alliance when his troops are considered deserters and traitors of the Alliance in WoW, some of whom are outright confronted and attacked by Alliance players for sowing dissent and trying to destabilizing Theramore.

Like it or not, the Alliance chose to support Jaina as representative of their interests in eastern Kalimdor rather than backing the forces of Daelin who were still based out of Tiragarde and trying to attack the Horde, and who compounded their isolation by actively betraying and attempting to undermine Theramore from within.

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You're also forgetting that Ironforge was actively supporting Lordaeron in their struggles against the Scourge since they sent dwarven help to aid Garithos. That proves they WERE fighting the Scourge.
They weren't necessarily sent to help Garithos. There were already regiments of dwarves in Lordaeron even before the Scourging; Arthas encountered some of them in the early human missions.

Due to the multi-national funding and upkeep of the internment camps and the pursuit of Thrall's army, there were probably a lot of troops deployed by the various Alliance states throughout Lordaeron to begin with.

The nature of RoC's and TFT's portrayals of the Third War made it appear that Lordaeron was isolated and alone, inhabited only by desperate survivors, rather than host to outside aid that was sent sent by other Alliance kingdoms to dislodge the undead.

Last edited by ARM3481; 07-07-2013 at 03:40 AM..
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  #49  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:38 AM
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It's hard to really consider Daelin representative of the whole Alliance when his troops are considered deserters and traitors of the Alliance in WoW, some of whom are outright confronted and attacked by Alliance players for sowing dissent and trying to destabilizing Theramore.
Wasn't Daelin the only remaining high commander of the Alliance? Lothar was dead and some other commanders went MIA, so I think it's only logical to believe that Daelin was the military commander of the Alliance.

It doesn't really matter if the other Alliance nations supported his genocidal campaign because the flames were already there. When a military commander of an organization declares war on another state, then the two organizations are at war.
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  #50  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:40 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Pixy View Post
But he did, in WarCraft III. He led what was the only stable human Kingdom at that time. Stormwind never appeared in WCIII, Lordaeron was in ashes and Dalaran was nearly completely destroyed. Daelin was basically the highest ranking member of the Alliance at that time therefore he represented the Alliance.
WoW manual described Jaina as the leader of Alliance remnants:

The remaining Alliance forces under Jaina Proudmoore settled in southern Kalimdor. Off the eastern coast of Dustwallow Marsh, they built the rugged port city of Theramore. There, the humans and their dwarven allies worked to survive in a land that would always be hostile to them. Though the defenders of Durotar and Theramore kept the tentative truce with one another, the fragile colonial serenity was not meant to last.

The peace between the orcs and humans was shattered by the arrival of a massive Alliance fleet in Kalimdor. The mighty fleet, under the command of Grand Admiral Daelin Proudmoore (Jaina’s father), had left Lordaeron before Arthas destroyed the kingdom. Having sailed for many grueling months, Admiral Proudmoore was searching for any Alliance survivors he could find.

Proudmoore’s armada posed a serious threat to the stability of the region. As
a renowned hero of the Second War, Jaina’s father was a staunch enemy of the Horde, and he was determined to destroy Durotar before the orcs could gain a foothold in the land. The Grand Admiral forced Jaina to make a terrible decision: support him in battle against the orcs and betray her newfound allies, or fight her own father to maintain the fragile peace that the Alliance and the Horde had finally attained.

After much soul-searching, Jaina chose the latter and helped Thrall defeat her
crazed father. Unfortunately Admiral Proudmoore died in battle before Jaina could reconcile with him or prove that orcs were no longer bloodthirsty monsters. For her loyalty, the orcs allowed Jaina’s forces to return home safely to Theramore.


...

Jaina Proudmoore - Jaina Proudmoore is the most powerful human sorceress alive. A one-time ally of Prince Arthas, Jaina saw the fall of Lordaeron firsthand. Traveling to Kalimdor, Jaina swore to defeat the Burning Legion and its sinister agents any way she could. Joining forces with the night elves and even the orcish Horde, Jaina helped defeat the demon Archimonde and banish the Legion forever. She then gathered the human survivors in Kalimdor and founded the port city of Theramore. There she rules over the tattered remnants of the Alliance and hopes to reunite the distant human kingdoms once more.
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