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  #26  
Old 09-13-2016, 01:43 PM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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I used to be rather harsh on the man because, in my mind, the Orc wankery, the twisted understanding of the concept of redemption and the No-True-Hordsman fallacy could be attributed to his particular tastes. Doesn't stop me from admiring the sheer amount of Lore he produced, tough. It's always sad to see someone like that go.
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  #27  
Old 09-13-2016, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
Hardly. They were contemptuous of their broken brethren, have issues letting go of their past and were the few members able to escape becoming evil. In all honesty it was more epic, more tragic and more grand
Immortal lives+super tech+super magic+holy light+nature spirit+saint leader+former brethren being the leaders of the legion+poping out from nowhere...

Mary Sue doesn't mean being flawless, just needs more than enough awesome feats. They got way too many.

I don't see why do we need such a huge retcon to get "something to expand", we got enough to develop, few of them were handled well which is why we get Illidan back now.
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  #28  
Old 09-13-2016, 01:57 PM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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We get Illidan back because a vocal number of fanboys couldn't deal with the fact their Dark and Brooding Special Snowflake pet character was a loser.

That being said, I half-agree with you about the Draenei. I got to WoW on BC, and Draenei have ever since been my favorite, but their lore simply doesn't make any sense. For a race of nigh-immortal super-mages, they are notoriously incompetent. I blame that on Blizz's subpar writing, tough, not on an inherent deficiency about the race as a story element.
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  #29  
Old 09-13-2016, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
We get Illidan back because a vocal number of fanboys couldn't deal with the fact their Dark and Brooding Special Snowflake pet character was a loser.

That being said, I half-agree with you about the Draenei. I got to WoW on BC, and Draenei have ever since been my favorite, but their lore simply doesn't make any sense. For a race of nigh-immortal super-mages, they are notoriously incompetent. I blame that on Blizz's subpar writing, tough, not on an inherent deficiency about the race as a story element.
I'm very serious about consistency, so I think Illidan came back was another blow against the lore. But in BC he wasn't handled well, even Blizzard themselves had admitted it.
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  #30  
Old 09-13-2016, 03:47 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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I'm very serious about consistency, so I think Illidan came back was another blow against the lore. But in BC he wasn't handled well, even Blizzard themselves had admitted it.
The Illidan novel actually managed to make a coherent story. Illidan MEANT well but because he was so god damned arrogant and untrusting he alienated those who COULD have helped him, forcing him to do desperate acts of evil that made things worse. Had he trusted the Sha'tar the whole "sacrificing souls" would have been unneccesary and he could have done more.

THat's.....actually not to terrible. Illidan would be more sympathetic but still flawed. Hawki did a great story where Illidan finally realizes how foolish he's been (being dead gave him time to think.)
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  #31  
Old 09-13-2016, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
The Illidan novel actually managed to make a coherent story. Illidan MEANT well but because he was so god damned arrogant and untrusting he alienated those who COULD have helped him, forcing him to do desperate acts of evil that made things worse. Had he trusted the Sha'tar the whole "sacrificing souls" would have been unneccesary and he could have done more.

THat's.....actually not to terrible. Illidan would be more sympathetic but still flawed. Hawki did a great story where Illidan finally realizes how foolish he's been (being dead gave him time to think.)
None of these were presented in the BC story, he was rarely seen or heard, even lost his position as the big bad and Kael was smashed to the core.

Still, consistency matters a lot. The whole Warcraft lore got many good ideas and characters, but many of them were ruined by the inconsistency of the story/characterization/focus.
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  #32  
Old 09-13-2016, 04:39 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Kael'thas would have felt Illidan wasn't helping. He failed to deliver revenge on arthas, and his way of helping out was limited in some ways.

Also, on the Isle some of the guards are saying that since Delrissa brought him back he's been off.

My pet theory. He makes a deal with Kil'jaeden because Illidan is neglecting his end. He does so reluctantly. After his own people turn on him, his violent death combined with the fuckery of Delrissa reviving him destroys what little good he has left. Fel DOES corrupt people so it's not that big a shocker.

Also the Draenei have been through shit. 4/5ths of their people were slaughtered by the orcs, many survivors were cut off from the light....they've gone through shit.
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  #33  
Old 09-13-2016, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
Kael'thas would have felt Illidan wasn't helping. He failed to deliver revenge on arthas, and his way of helping out was limited in some ways.

Also, on the Isle some of the guards are saying that since Delrissa brought him back he's been off.

My pet theory. He makes a deal with Kil'jaeden because Illidan is neglecting his end. He does so reluctantly. After his own people turn on him, his violent death combined with the fuckery of Delrissa reviving him destroys what little good he has left. Fel DOES corrupt people so it's not that big a shocker.

Also the Draenei have been through shit. 4/5ths of their people were slaughtered by the orcs, many survivors were cut off from the light....they've gone through shit.
Illidan gave him the perfect solution to end his people's suffering and bring back their power source, I don't see he got any reason to make deal with the legion at all.

It doesn't change the fact that they are Mary Sue, actually the "We've been through this shit and we are still so morally good" raises the Sueism even more on the moral way.
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  #34  
Old 09-13-2016, 07:13 PM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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It doesn't change the fact that they are Mary Sue, actually the "We've been through this shit and we are still so morally good" raises the Sueism even more on the moral way.
...So, in order not to be a Sue you have to become bitter and cynical after tragedy strikes you?

Alternatively, Draenei rub shoulders with actual coalesced Light. I'd find rather hard to be a Illid... Whiny and bitter when a constant reminder of the moral center of the setting is sitting right there.
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  #35  
Old 09-13-2016, 08:38 PM
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...So, in order not to be a Sue you have to become bitter and cynical after tragedy strikes you?

Alternatively, Draenei rub shoulders with actual coalesced Light. I'd find rather hard to be a Illid... Whiny and bitter when a constant reminder of the moral center of the setting is sitting right there.
Yes, that's more realistic, you can see it happens to at least 95% of the people. You can dislike it, but that's what happen in real life. Nobody said it should go as bad as Illidan went. Still, Illidan was well characterized before BC.


I'm not saying it makes them Sue, but along with the holy light+super tech+magic+nature spirit+immortality+being the former brethren of the most powerful demon race make them very Sueish, and the retcon made it even worse.
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  #36  
Old 09-13-2016, 08:45 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Whats melee island?
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  #37  
Old 09-13-2016, 11:28 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Illidan gave him the perfect solution to end his people's suffering and bring back their power source, I don't see he got any reason to make deal with the legion at all.

It doesn't change the fact that they are Mary Sue, actually the "We've been through this shit and we are still so morally good" raises the Sueism even more on the moral way.
How though? Illidan locked himself in and focused on the plans. They would have been trying to make use of it at the same time but Illidan was preoccupied helping himself. Methinks that people doth protest too much

Also, the Draenei do have flaws. Real ones. They're not sues.
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  #38  
Old 09-13-2016, 11:41 PM
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How though? Illidan locked himself in and focused on the plans. They would have been trying to make use of it at the same time but Illidan was preoccupied helping himself. Methinks that people doth protest too much

Also, the Draenei do have flaws. Real ones. They're not sues.
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:The_Vials_of_Eternity

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Seven vials were drawn from the Well of Eternity by Illidan. He poured three into the lake on top of Mount Hyjal and a second Well of Eternity was created. For years the rest were believed lost. With the opening of the Dark Portal, we've come to know that he gave one each to his lieutenants Kael'thas and Vashj. Retrieve what remains of them; we will need them as foci to open a gateway to any events tied to Mount Hyjal, recent or ancient. The outcome of the Battle of Mount Hyjal must be preserved.
Remember how was the Sunwell created?

They do, just not enough to cover tons of Sueish feats. Most of the Mary Sue have flaw.
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  #39  
Old 09-14-2016, 01:09 AM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:The_Vials_of_Eternity



Remember how was the Sunwell created?

They do, just not enough to cover tons of Sueish feats. Most of the Mary Sue have flaw.
Eh that was a brainfart. In Frozen throne he just suggests absorbing magic through force.

It just seems like you love Kael. Or on outland they don't have the way to do it. Or it could be that Illidan's failure at ice crown disillusioned him.

The Draenei lost badly when they faced the orcs though. All that magitek didn't accomplish shit. Some of them are susceptible to corruption (the sargerei).

I loved the changes. It added tragedy to the backstory and made Kil'jaeden far more twisted and evil. Had blizzard done an orc redemption arc it would have been powerful. The orcs destroyed a beautiful civilization on a lie and have to live with that sin.
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  #40  
Old 09-14-2016, 05:01 AM
Bullroarer Bullroarer is offline

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The Draenei

-Closer connection to the Light than humanity. Chronicle even shows that the Naaru came to humanity via visions. Tyr has nothing to do with the Light. He's just a symbol.
-The biggest and bulkiest race in the alliance. These guys are on par with Orcs.
-More technologically advanced than the gnomes
-Better craftsmen than the dwarves (Probably not blacksmithing, but definitely in jewelcrafting and architecture).
-Older and wiser than the Night Elves.
-A history of arcane that goes back 25000 years.

The only race that has anything on them are the Worgen, who can throw a literal carriage at you and Night Elvin druidism. I don't know how much a Gilnean carriage is, but it must be heavy



"They know more than any other race we've encountered" Chris Metzen

"The ultimate good guys of the universe" -Theviart

"More pure and good than any other race in the alliance" -Jeff kaplan

If Blizzard were to ever implement the Draenei in a logical fashion they would easily outshine all the other races of the alliance in almost every area.
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  #41  
Old 09-14-2016, 05:27 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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I mean to be fair, none of that saved them from the Orcs, nor constantly fleeing from the Burning Legion.

With the exception of the Light, most of their stuff is what you'd probably come to expect from a race that is nigh-immortal.

On paper, the Draenei do come across as very Sue-ish, however in practice they often feel very much overshadowed by just about anybody else.
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  #42  
Old 09-14-2016, 06:55 AM
Bullroarer Bullroarer is offline

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I mean to be fair, none of that saved them from the Orcs, nor constantly fleeing from the Burning Legion.

With the exception of the Light, most of their stuff is what you'd probably come to expect from a race that is nigh-immortal.

On paper, the Draenei do come across as very Sue-ish, however in practice they often feel very much overshadowed by just about anybody else.
Because if they were actually implemented as they were on paper they would be stomping the shit out of everyone and they would be outshining all their allies.
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  #43  
Old 09-14-2016, 07:08 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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The draenei are "mary sues" but then again you must remember their actual species isnt "draenei"...its "eredar". The draenei's good is counterbalanced by the man'ari evil.
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  #44  
Old 09-14-2016, 07:42 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Whats melee island?
Monkey Island series. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_Island_(series)

Coincidentally, Curse of Monkey Island in 1997 was one of the games that intimidated Lord of the Clans into getting cancelled.
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  #45  
Old 09-14-2016, 10:39 AM
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Eh that was a brainfart. In Frozen throne he just suggests absorbing magic through force.

It just seems like you love Kael. Or on outland they don't have the way to do it. Or it could be that Illidan's failure at ice crown disillusioned him.

The Draenei lost badly when they faced the orcs though. All that magitek didn't accomplish shit. Some of them are susceptible to corruption (the sargerei).

I loved the changes. It added tragedy to the backstory and made Kil'jaeden far more twisted and evil. Had blizzard done an orc redemption arc it would have been powerful. The orcs destroyed a beautiful civilization on a lie and have to live with that sin.
Since Rommath could go back I don't see why Kael couldn't. I remember in that Blood of the Highborne, it said Kael was keep contacting Rommath in Silvermoon?

That actually makes little sense based on the magic/skills they got, it adds a plothole to the story.

Again the orginial Draenei is tragic enough, and there are 100 ways to show Kil'jaeden's darkness without such a stupid retcon/revamp.
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  #46  
Old 09-14-2016, 10:40 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Metzen's got decent ideas, but he badly needs an editor.

I think he'll end up being a lot like Knaak. Whilst they started off and proved controversial (Metzen far less so, but still) in their most prolific type of fiction (video games/books) once they started to write for comics they found the medium where their special brand of, uh, 'ideas' can be gotten away with. I think that's why Overwatch's lore is generally considered pretty good by most people (stating outright there was no story helped) but in any other medium than a glorified comic book video game it would suffer under much heavier scrutiny. How much sense that made I don't know.

I'm actually surprised he left when he did considering Overwatch very much seemed like Metzen's chance to make the comic book story he never got to properly do with WoW.
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  #47  
Old 09-14-2016, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Bullroarer View Post
The Draenei

-Closer connection to the Light than humanity. Chronicle even shows that the Naaru came to humanity via visions. Tyr has nothing to do with the Light. He's just a symbol.
-The biggest and bulkiest race in the alliance. These guys are on par with Orcs.
-More technologically advanced than the gnomes
-Better craftsmen than the dwarves (Probably not blacksmithing, but definitely in jewelcrafting and architecture).
-Older and wiser than the Night Elves.
-A history of arcane that goes back 25000 years.

The only race that has anything on them are the Worgen, who can throw a literal carriage at you and Night Elvin druidism. I don't know how much a Gilnean carriage is, but it must be heavy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kei61shkWhU


"They know more than any other race we've encountered" Chris Metzen

"The ultimate good guys of the universe" -Theviart

"More pure and good than any other race in the alliance" -Jeff kaplan

If Blizzard were to ever implement the Draenei in a logical fashion they would easily outshine all the other races of the alliance in almost every area.
You forgot "Their former brethren are the mightiest demon race and the leaders of the legion".




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Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Metzen's got decent ideas, but he badly needs an editor.

I think he'll end up being a lot like Knaak. Whilst they started off and proved controversial (Metzen far less so, but still) in their most prolific type of fiction (video games/books) once they started to write for comics they found the medium where their special brand of, uh, 'ideas' can be gotten away with. I think that's why Overwatch's lore is generally considered pretty good by most people (stating outright there was no story helped) but in any other medium than a glorified comic book video game it would suffer under much heavier scrutiny. How much sense that made I don't know.

I'm actually surprised he left when he did considering Overwatch very much seemed like Metzen's chance to make the comic book story he never got to properly do with WoW.
They share a lot in common, both got some great ideas of world building and characters. Both favor their avatar wayy too much. But Knaak cares about consistency more than Metzen, at least in the WC franchise.

Metzen is comic writer, so he doesn't care about retcon, but too many retcon and inconsistency badly damaged the WC franchise and ruined many good ideas/characters. Also comics know to exploit famous/popular characters but Metzen simply put his avatar characters above the popular ones. BC and Cata BOTH suffered a lot from this.

The current guy didn't have much creative ideas, from what I've seen, he's using the old characters, trying to exploit their popularity.


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Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
I mean to be fair, none of that saved them from the Orcs, nor constantly fleeing from the Burning Legion.

With the exception of the Light, most of their stuff is what you'd probably come to expect from a race that is nigh-immortal.

On paper, the Draenei do come across as very Sue-ish, however in practice they often feel very much overshadowed by just about anybody else.
Because this part of the story happened before the retcon, they can't changed, they do outshine everybody in BC.
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  #48  
Old 09-14-2016, 11:36 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Draeneis are fine. Their super tech aren't theirs, and they have no means to reproduce it. Pretty much all the reasons listed are butthurt.

Last edited by TerrorhoofMayo; 09-14-2016 at 11:44 AM..
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  #49  
Old 09-14-2016, 11:37 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Draeneis are fine. Their super tech aren't theirs, and they have no means to reproduce it. Pretty much all the reasons listed are butchery.
It still benefits them, how is it not a Sue feat?
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  #50  
Old 09-14-2016, 11:40 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Draenei are just an attempt to make better, less generic humans, but by creating them, Blizzard only managed to make humans more generic than they already were by taking away the one thing they had going for them, the Light.
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