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  #76  
Old 09-15-2016, 12:53 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Vashj and Illidan were never good guys to begin with so I don't see why you're surprised we killed them. TFT was about to bad guys fighting each other.

As for Kael, while he wasn't a villain, it's possible that what he endured might have pushed him over the edge. Him going all nihilist with the Legion shouldn't have been that surprising either after the entire world screwed him over.
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  #77  
Old 09-15-2016, 12:54 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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I'm... not even sure what you're saying.

I think Kaplan literally just wanted big name villains for raid bosses (or someone did) and he didn't really give a damn about what the narrative was. I don't think Metzen has a particular connection to the Illidari characters either, so I'm not sure he had much to do with it.

Honestly, at most I think he maybe came up with the Mag'har and probably the general idea for what the Draenei were. (Most likely he pitched the Draenei as the Alliance race and got turned down because they were ugly, so he pulled Archimonde's design to make them more visually appealing -- honestly that pretty much sounds like how it went.)
How was Illidan not big enough? And why do you say it's not Metzen's idea? Even without 2.4, neither Illidan nor Vashj got enough spotlight.

Metzen was the loremaster, of course he is responsible for the characters' performance in BC. I don't see there was any excuses. Few of the bad ideas got anything to do with the gameplay. Even if he wanted to revamp the Draenei, there were 10+ better ways to do it without deal such a big blow to the lore and insert so much Mary Sue elements.

Remember 2.4 patch? They changed nearly the entire Silvermoon city NPC's dialog about Kael, does it have anything to do with the actual gameplay or Kaplan at all? No, it's obviously Metzen's fault.


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Originally Posted by Trickster View Post
Vashj and Illidan were never good guys to begin with so I don't see why you're surprised we killed them. TFT was about to bad guys fighting each other.

As for Kael, while he wasn't a villain, it's possible that what he endured might have pushed him over the edge. Him going all nihilist with the Legion shouldn't have been that surprising either after the entire world screwed him over.
I'm not saying they are good guys, but as villains, they weren't portrayed well enough in the xpc. Even Blizzard themselves admitted Illidan was handled badly. Vashj was nowhere close to the cunning seawitch we've seen in TFT.

As for Kael, I don't see the entire world screwed him over, not after Illidan had given him the perfect solution for his people's hunger, as well as the protection.


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And that's why this is my rating:


Suppositions simply aren't a good source, Slow.
Suppositions? He was the loremaster, of course we blame the bad plot/setting/retcon on him.

Last edited by Slowpokeking; 09-15-2016 at 12:58 PM..
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  #78  
Old 09-15-2016, 01:00 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I mean of course you can hold him ultimately responsible for what was released. He was in charge, but I'm not sure he had much to do directly with the story of TBC.

Also I didn't say Illidan wasn't big? I said Kaplan probably wanted big names that players could feel excited about fighting. And ultimately the game director is also involved in the story/world building of his game. Again, Rob Pardo certainly was.

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Vashj and Illidan were never good guys to begin with so I don't see why you're surprised we killed them. TFT was about to bad guys fighting each other.
Honestly for my money I'd much rather be playing a more morally ambiguous game, and less of this 'good guy heroes and variations thereof fighting the big evil one-dimensional overlords'. They've attempted some things like that (the Forsaken questing experience, for example) but it's always been pretty limited.

Good guys vs. Bad guys has never really been Blizzard's style, so I'm surprised they've stuck to it so religiously since WoW.
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  #79  
Old 09-15-2016, 01:04 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
I mean of course you can hold him ultimately responsible for what was released. He was in charge, but I'm not sure he had much to do directly with the story of TBC.

Also I didn't say Illidan wasn't big? I said Kaplan probably wanted big names that players could feel excited about fighting.
He was the loremaster, of course he got a lot to do with the story of BC. He didn't step down from the lore until MoP.

But that's not an excuse for Metzen at all, even without the 2.4 story/final boss, Illidan and Vashj were still handled badly. How was it not Metzen's fault? if Kaplan wanted big names, then he surely would have wanted the big names being used well, thus making them threatening and let the player feel so good on beating them.
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  #80  
Old 09-15-2016, 01:05 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
He was the loremaster, of course he got a lot to do with the story of BC. He didn't step down from the lore until MoP.

But that's not an excuse for Metzen at all, even without the 2.4 story/final boss, Illidan and Vashj were still handled badly. How was it not Metzen's fault?
Because he didn't actually write anything.

The quest development team didn't even answer to him I don't think.
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  #81  
Old 09-15-2016, 01:09 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Because he didn't actually write anything.

The quest development team didn't even answer to him I don't think.
He was the Senior Vice President of Story & Franchise Development. Why do you say the main storyline/characterization wasn't handled by him? Even if something wasn't written by him, it had to be checked by him.

Remember the retcon controversy? He said it was his idea when he apologized in the interview.
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  #82  
Old 09-15-2016, 01:10 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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He was the Senior Vice President of Story & Franchise Development. Why do you say the main storyline/characterization wasn't handled by him? Even if something wasn't written by him, it had to be checked by him.
I doubt he approved everything. Back then I don't even think they had a team specifically for writing.
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  #83  
Old 09-15-2016, 01:13 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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I doubt he approved everything. Back then I don't even think they had a team specifically for writing.
Maybe not every details, but anything about the major plot, major characters and major revamp, of course it had to be checked by him. The major direction was no doubt led by him.

I wonder did he even think about the vial of eternity quest when he had looked up them.
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  #84  
Old 09-15-2016, 01:13 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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How dare you be upset that the Orcs are invading our lands and murdered your young daughter, Leyara. You need to put aside your wicked prejudices... and that goes double for you, Alliance!
Leyara's daughter was several hundred years old when she died.
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  #85  
Old 09-15-2016, 03:51 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Leyara's daughter was several hundred years old when she died.
I'm pretty sure she used a Belf child model.
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  #86  
Old 09-15-2016, 04:04 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Also, Kael should have known about that Sunwell girl's situation, so why did he still choose to join the legion?
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  #87  
Old 09-15-2016, 04:18 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
I'm pretty sure she used a Belf child model.
Her father died in the War of Shifting Sands, so either Night Elves have a gestation period that lasts just shy of a thousand years, Night Elves are actually Blood Elf children for the first thousand years of their lives, or she wasn't actually a child when the Horde attacked nearly a thousand years after she was born.

Edit: Or Leyara managed to recover his corpse, have sex with it and somehow get pregnant from weirdly still viable sperm that's been sitting in a decomposing corpse for the past millennium.

Last edited by Kellick; 09-15-2016 at 04:20 PM..
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  #88  
Old 09-15-2016, 04:36 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
I mean of course you can hold him ultimately responsible for what was released. He was in charge, but I'm not sure he had much to do directly with the story of TBC.

Also I didn't say Illidan wasn't big? I said Kaplan probably wanted big names that players could feel excited about fighting. And ultimately the game director is also involved in the story/world building of his game. Again, Rob Pardo certainly was.



Honestly for my money I'd much rather be playing a more morally ambiguous game, and less of this 'good guy heroes and variations thereof fighting the big evil one-dimensional overlords'. They've attempted some things like that (the Forsaken questing experience, for example) but it's always been pretty limited.

Good guys vs. Bad guys has never really been Blizzard's style, so I'm surprised they've stuck to it so religiously since WoW.
Tassadar, Jim Raynor, and Zeratul are pretty clear good guys. Diablo has the nephelem be good guys and the clear baddies in the prime evils.

Also fel energy (what Kael used) DOES destroy sanity. The Belves in Azeroth avoided it because they used other sources).

Last edited by Ol'Yoggy; 09-15-2016 at 04:38 PM..
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  #89  
Old 09-15-2016, 05:16 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
Tassadar, Jim Raynor, and Zeratul are pretty clear good guys. Diablo has the nephelem be good guys and the clear baddies in the prime evils.

Also fel energy (what Kael used) DOES destroy sanity. The Belves in Azeroth avoided it because they used other sources).
Quite a few of them suck fel magic, which is why their eyes had turned green.

The Scryers were once part of his blood elves in Outland, we don't see them lost their sanity. Kael had started to use fel energy in TFT but we don't see him turn evil in the end of the game.

Dire Maul's elves also feed on demons, but many of them didn't lose their sanity either.

Also, according to the chronicles, Weren't arcane and fel magic opposed to each other? Why would fel energy be able to sustain arcane addiction?
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  #90  
Old 09-15-2016, 05:25 PM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Quite a few of them suck fel magic, which is why their eyes had turned green.

The Scryers were once part of his blood elves in Outland, we don't see them lost their sanity. Kael had started to use fel energy in TFT but we don't see him turn evil in the end of the game.

Dire Maul's elves also feed on demons, but many of them didn't lose their sanity either.

Also, according to the chronicles, Weren't arcane and fel magic opposed to each other? Why would fel energy be able to sustain arcane addiction?
Because Chronicles was written to be the giant steam roller that ran over everything that came before it for the sake of consistency
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  #91  
Old 09-15-2016, 05:27 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Because Chronicles was written to be the giant steam roller that ran over everything that came before it for the sake of consistency
So why some people are still defending obvious plothole and character inconsistency for Blizzard?
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  #92  
Old 09-15-2016, 07:54 PM
Funk, the Bard Funk, the Bard is offline

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Metzen should've rollbacked all lore back to WC3 before calling quits. If anything, to say sorry for all the shit he did after.
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  #93  
Old 09-15-2016, 08:39 PM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
So why some people are still defending obvious plothole and character inconsistency for Blizzard?
Because we can whine and compain about what Blizzard does and thus be miserable, OR try to roll with it and fix what can reasonably be fixed, even if it is only on a messageboard.

Someone said earlier, WoW runs on PowerMetal and Rule of Cool, and that's really the perfect definition. Kael became a villain for the same reason Malygos did and Ysera got corrupted - they wanted us to loot a big-name corpse. That's it
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  #94  
Old 09-15-2016, 08:44 PM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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I love Metzen. I praise him for his work in modernizing the Warcraft Universe with Warcraft 3.

Even though he stopped playing a hand with WoW Lore in recent years. I wish him the best of luck in his endeavors in retirement. Fuck. He deserves it in my opinion.
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  #95  
Old 09-16-2016, 02:17 AM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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Originally Posted by Melorandor View Post
I love Metzen. I praise him for his work in modernizing the Warcraft Universe with Warcraft 3.

Even though he stopped playing a hand with WoW Lore in recent years. I wish him the best of luck in his endeavors in retirement. Fuck. He deserves it in my opinion.
Dude made money off of sharing his OCs with Tens of millions of people and was able to retire at 42.

We can only hope to have a life as blessed ad Metzen's
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  #96  
Old 09-16-2016, 11:24 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Metzen's fine.
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  #97  
Old 09-19-2016, 02:19 PM
Yorenec Yorenec is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Yes, that's more realistic, you can see it happens to at least 95% of the people. You can dislike it, but that's what happen in real life. Nobody said it should go as bad as Illidan went. Still, Illidan was well characterized before BC.


I'm not saying it makes them Sue, but along with the holy light+super tech+magic+nature spirit+immortality+being the former brethren of the most powerful demon race make them very Sueish, and the retcon made it even worse.
95% is way too high of a number there, at least in my experience. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you but some of the sweetest and most kindhearted people I've met in my life have been through utter hell. They generally have a similar reason when you ask them about it, "my life has been pretty shitty so I'm gonna do anything I can for others to avoid being as miserable as I have and give them hope that things will get better."
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  #98  
Old 09-20-2016, 01:21 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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95% is way too high of a number there, at least in my experience. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you but some of the sweetest and most kindhearted people I've met in my life have been through utter hell. They generally have a similar reason when you ask them about it, "my life has been pretty shitty so I'm gonna do anything I can for others to avoid being as miserable as I have and give them hope that things will get better."
Yeah some people are that awesome, but the majority don't and that's human nature and understandable.
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