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Old 09-20-2016, 04:55 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Default Imagine for a moment...

...that Blizz had gone with the original script and had Jaina become the Banshee Queen.

Jaina dying valiantly in the defense of Dalaran only to be raised back as a banshee

Jaina loathing Arthas

Jaina reclaming Lordaeron

Jaina ordering the creation of the plague

Jaina sending troops against the Uther (?) Antonidas (?) Daelin (?) created nation of Theramore in Kalimdor.

Jaina ordering the plaguing of Gilneas, the enslavement of Eyir

Imagine the rage, the tears. Sylvanas would be nothing in comparison. I walk into empty and peered beyond the veil.

it's beautiful

For the Dark Lady, Victory to Jaina

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Old 09-20-2016, 05:13 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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...that Kael, Illidan and Vajsh would have canonically died at the end of TFT when you destroy their bases.

...that Azerothian nobility characters could have just been counts of the Empire in Warhammer, or nobles of Bretonnia.

Last edited by SmokeBlader; 09-20-2016 at 05:15 PM..
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Old 09-20-2016, 06:54 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Original script?
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Old 09-20-2016, 08:21 PM
Bullroarer Bullroarer is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
...that Blizz had gone with the original script and had Jaina become the Banshee Queen.

Jaina dying valiantly in the defense of Dalaran only to be raised back as a banshee

Jaina loathing Arthas

Jaina reclaming Lordaeron

Jaina ordering the creation of the plague

Jaina sending troops against the Uther (?) Antonidas (?) Daelin (?) created nation of Theramore in Kalimdor.

Jaina ordering the plaguing of Gilneas, the enslavement of Eyir

Imagine the rage, the tears. Sylvanas would be nothing in comparison. I walk into empty and peered beyond the veil.

it's beautiful

For the Dark Lady, Victory to Jaina

Well a lot of the reason Sylvanas gets a lot hate is because of her plot armor and because it doesn't really mesh with the shamanistic horde Thrall made. It is ludicrous that an Orc like Saurfang or Ariok would ever follow the likes of Sylvanas. Sylvanas makes Garrosh look like an innocent lamb.

Arthas was as cold and as ruthless as you can get and was a beloved character of the franchise. I would go as far as to say Arthas was the most beloved character of the franchise.

Sylvanas has done terrible things, yet the alliance does nothing. Tirion should have smashed through the walls of undercity destroying every undead that he finds in his path. Her tactics go into excess and Garrosh himself asked what difference was there between her and the Lich King. She plagued Gilneas despite orders not to. She plagued Southshore so hard that the farmers turned to sludge. Her Forsaken went so far that they dissected farmers and reattached parts of their bodies into becoming abominations, but Tirion did nothing and neither did Garrosh.

Now there are fans that will try to justify Arthas's actions at Stratholme, but we can all agree that everything post-stratholme was either wrong or excessive. In fact majority of complaints from Arthas fans is that he became a Saturday Morning villain during Wrath of the Lich King.

Now as for whether or not people like Dark Jaina. That depends how the writers treat her. Lets say for example Dark Jaina joins the Horde. Does her actions fit with Thrall's vision? How would Cairne or Baine react to her?

Would powerful forces such as Tirion simply ignore Dark Jaina?

Let me put it this way. Arthas was a bigger threat than Sylvanas ever was, yet the champions of justice put him down. Why don't we put Sylvanas down?

It took the Ashbringer to bring down Arthas. It only take a single bullet to bring down Sylvanas.
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Old 09-20-2016, 08:45 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Sylvanas suits better as the banshee queen, but she sucks as a leader of the undead because she knew NOTHING of necromancy for a long while.

I don't think Jaina's tactic could beat the Dreadlords though. I once made a concept of the Lich King's personal guards being 5 Jaina clones.

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Well a lot of the reason Sylvanas gets a lot hate is because of her plot armor and because it doesn't really mesh with the shamanistic horde Thrall made. It is ludicrous that an Orc like Saurfang or Ariok would ever follow the likes of Sylvanas. Sylvanas makes Garrosh look like an innocent lamb.

Arthas was as cold and as ruthless as you can get and was a beloved character of the franchise. I would go as far as to say Arthas was the most beloved character of the franchise.

Sylvanas has done terrible things, yet the alliance does nothing. Tirion should have smashed through the walls of undercity destroying every undead that he finds in his path. Her tactics go into excess and Garrosh himself asked what difference was there between her and the Lich King. She plagued Gilneas despite orders not to. She plagued Southshore so hard that the farmers turned to sludge. Her Forsaken went so far that they dissected farmers and reattached parts of their bodies into becoming abominations, but Tirion did nothing and neither did Garrosh.

Now there are fans that will try to justify Arthas's actions at Stratholme, but we can all agree that everything post-stratholme was either wrong or excessive. In fact majority of complaints from Arthas fans is that he became a Saturday Morning villain during Wrath of the Lich King.

Now as for whether or not people like Dark Jaina. That depends how the writers treat her. Lets say for example Dark Jaina joins the Horde. Does her actions fit with Thrall's vision? How would Cairne or Baine react to her?

Would powerful forces such as Tirion simply ignore Dark Jaina?

Let me put it this way. Arthas was a bigger threat than Sylvanas ever was, yet the champions of justice put him down. Why don't we put Sylvanas down?

It took the Ashbringer to bring down Arthas. It only take a single bullet to bring down Sylvanas.
But business is business, Thrall is a politician first.

it makes far less sense for the Alliance, the humans to accept Death Knights, WHY??????
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  #6  
Old 09-20-2016, 09:05 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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To give much needed anti-heroism to the Alliance, of course.
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Old 09-20-2016, 11:12 PM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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All I know is. Just imagine that fanboyism.
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Old 09-21-2016, 03:02 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Originally Posted by Bullroarer View Post
...
Jesuschrist

Here is the point





And here are you.

Im working under the assumption she would have done literally the same Sylvanas did. Which is likely. I dont even know why did you bring all that wankery about Arthas and bringing down Sylvanas use other thread for that

Oh and buy me overwatch on the way out, thank me.

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  #9  
Old 09-21-2016, 03:39 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Had this come to pass back in Warcraft III, I doubt that Jaina's story would have resembled the story of Sylvanas much, if at all.

First, I am pretty positive her relationship with Arthas would have been a bit different, more a love-hate relationship rather than the utter hate relationship that Sylvanas got.

Second, I doubt Jaina would have named her people Forsaken, and I seriously doubt her undead would have had anything to do with the Horde. They would have been either neutral, or members of the Alliance.

Last, there is no such original script. All we know for certain is that Blizzard at one point intended to kill Jaina off and make her a banshee.

Last edited by Marthen; 09-21-2016 at 04:21 AM..
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  #10  
Old 09-21-2016, 03:52 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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What makes you think all that would have been different? The only thing i see changing is dk Arthas treating her "better" and doing it out of "love" instead of a punishment but i dont see BansheeJaina loving him again

I dont see any impediments towards horde undead with Jaina as a ruler. Nor i see why would she not name her people Forsaken.

Quote:
Jaina was supposed to die in a very early draft, but that idea was squashed pretty quickly. Arthas didn't need any more motivation to chase Mal'ganis than he already had, but that was planned to be a main story element. There was supposed to be a love story between Arthas and Jaina, but that didn't work out. It was a bit too Raynor and Kerrigan again, because Jaina was going to become a banshee or something... I don't remember very well, but that plot point obviously got moved to Sylvanas Windrunner. There were a lot of similarities between the Starcraft and WarCraft 3 plotlines, to the point where the first few drafts got sent back multiple times.
All im gonna say, go find someone else if you want to get into a semantics argument
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Old 09-21-2016, 04:21 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Because it's very unlikely that Blizzard would have come up with the same story had the story of Warcraft III been so much different. Cause and effect.

Also, I do not understand how anything I wrote has to do with semantics. I simply pointed out that there is no original script saying that Jaina was meant to become the Banshee Queen back in the day. The very early draft mentioned merely says she was to be romantically involved with Arthas, killed by Mal'Ganis (not by Arthas, hence why I further think her potential story would have been rather different) and then raised as a banshee later on. That's no semantics, that's a fact.
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Old 09-21-2016, 04:35 AM
Angron was right Angron was right is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
it makes far less sense for the Alliance, the humans to accept Death Knights, WHY??????
Because they are vetted by the wielder of the purified ashbringer?

Because they were heroes of the alliance that recently went into the plaguelands to fight the undead and were raised there?

Because the alliance was going to march into the heart of the lich king's realm and they needed soldiers who would not be daunted or scared off by the scourge since they were it's mightiest champions?

take your pick.
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  #13  
Old 09-21-2016, 05:09 AM
Bullroarer Bullroarer is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post


But business is business, Thrall is a politician first.

it makes far less sense for the Alliance, the humans to accept Death Knights, WHY??????
Sylvanas went beyond anything Thrall would have tolerated post cataclysm. His Kor'kron were of no use.

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Jesuschrist

Here is the point





And here are you.

Im working under the assumption she would have done literally the same Sylvanas did. Which is likely. I dont even know why did you bring all that wankery about Arthas and bringing down Sylvanas use other thread for that
Once again, you asked what fan reaction would be had jaina done the same thing as Sylvanas. I on the other hand am making the argument that Sylvanas isn't hated for her actions, but rather how the world reacts to her action.

Your premise that Jaina would be hated even more than Sylvanas leaves out said variable. If Jaina receives the same non-reaction that Sylvanas did, then she will be just as hated. If Jaina receives a reaction that works with the story, then she would be loved by the fanbase.

I used Arthas as an example since he and Sylvanas are similar.
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Old 09-21-2016, 07:29 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
Im working under the assumption she would have done literally the same Sylvanas did. Which is likely.
Anyone who has ever read a decent 'what if', timetraveling, or alternate dimensions involving story will instantly tell you about how that assumption makes no sense whatsoever.

You could tell me that I shouldn't know any better what would happen then, but the fact is, if you're just going to assume a carbon copy of the original to be in her place, why even bother naming who that would be, rumored drafts or no? Hell, you even went ahead and assumed someone else would found Theramore in the real Jaina's absence.
The only difference to dig for would be what happened before any banshees get raised. And for that, we have an antagonist-for-three-missions taunting and generally being a b*tch toward the player pov versus a character you actually get to control and then gets intelligently used as a narrative tool to signify you're slipping to the dark side when she refuses to follow you/Arthas through the gates of Stratholme.

As it stands the whole question, the way you're putting it forth, appears just a poorly veiled attempt to get people to say nicer-than-usual things about the actual Sylvanas herself.


So, who's up for some more actually meaningful speculation about how an alternate leader-of-free-willed-undead would've done better than the one we got?
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Old 09-21-2016, 07:54 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Originally Posted by Bullroarer View Post
If Jaina receives a reaction that works with the story, then she would be loved by the fanbase.
And you honestly think she'd recieve a different treatment? Please.

I mostly think she'd get worse hate because she'd have the "Almost princess of Lordaeron turned it into the Horde and became as shitty as Arthas" thing going on which Sylvanas was already a bitch. Like Sylvanas she'd have the same legion of fans though.

Honestly i think they would have gone for the same routes. After all they'd be the same people

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You could tell me that I shouldn't know any better what would happen then, but the fact is, if you're just going to assume a carbon copy of the original to be in her place, why even bother naming who that would be, rumored drafts or no?
The point of the OP is describing a what-if Sylvanas story had been Jaina's but im not sure what are you even trying to say


Quote:
As it stands the whole question, the way you're putting it forth, appears just a poorly veiled attempt to get people to say nicer-than-usual things about the actual Sylvanas herself
.

Do you get payed to reach wrong conclusions or what?
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Old 09-21-2016, 08:15 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
Do you get payed to reach wrong conclusions or what?
I wasn't trying to draw any conclusion there. I was hoping to provoke you into rethinking your premise to open up discussion.
Why?

Because unless we're talking literally mindless undead who don't even remember their names, at which point it doesn't matter who they were in life, I don't see the two characters doing the same things with their unlives. Not even remotely. To simply assume they would makes the whole point moot like so:

So, do we like this essentially nameless zombie more than that one over there? It doesn't matter if that's all there is to it.

Forget imagining what the difference between two of the essentially same character with different names would be to the audience.
Instead, imagine for a moment how many people would've gotten into the warcraft franchise late enough not to know or care about what the difference was in the first place.
Because that's your popular opinion right there.
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Old 09-21-2016, 08:24 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I'd actually like that a lot better. And Jaina would have a tremendously stronger claim to human lands than Sylvanas.

It's weird to imagine hordes of Jaina apologists.
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:02 AM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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It's weird to imagine hordes of Jaina apologists.
It's funny because we already have those.
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:12 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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It's funny because we already have those.
Imagine everyone who hates Jaina swearing up and down that she did nothing wrong, and imagine everyone who says she did nothing wrong hating on her for five expansions worth of plot armor.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:13 AM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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Imagine everyone who hates Jaina swearing up and down that she did nothing wrong, and imagine everyone who says she did nothing wrong hating on her for five expansions worth of plot armor.
So what you're saying is nothing changes.
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:27 AM
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Imagine everyone who hates Jaina swearing up and down that she did nothing wrong, and imagine everyone who says she did nothing wrong hating on her for five expansions worth of plot armor.
That's... That's what we have right now.

Someone from an alternate universe would look at both of our timelines and say "Wait, how are these different again?"
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Old 09-21-2016, 10:03 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I'd find the premise far more interesting if all of the Alliance kingdoms shared Jaina's fate, leading to a World of Warcraft with the Horde and Dark/Undead Alliance as its PC factions. I don't want to hijack/derail your thread though, so I'll say no more.
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Old 09-21-2016, 10:41 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I don't want to hijack/derail your thread though, so I'll say no more.
What madness is this?

This thread is now about alt-WoW where the Kalimdor Horde races are Orcs, Trolls, Night Elves and Tauren, and the Azeroth Alliance races are undead versions of Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes and High Elves.

Also permitted is discussion of alt-WCIII, where the Scourge assimilates everything and Banshee Queen Jaina rallies the Alliance into a new order when Arthas falters.
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Old 09-21-2016, 10:43 AM
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What madness is this?

This thread is now about alt-WoW where the Kalimdor Horde races are Orcs, Trolls, Night Elves and Tauren, and the Azeroth Alliance races are undead versions of Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes and High Elves.
Stormwind, last stronghold of humanity and bastion of the scarlet crusade, is among the first raids added to the game.
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Old 09-21-2016, 11:06 AM
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Just needs a HotS skin
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