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  #51  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:29 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by DerpiusMaximus View Post
There's a bunch of small retcons, but I don't mind them. One that stuck out to me is the change from Rise of the Horde of Gul'dan sacrificing a draenei child to help fuel the Dark Portal to the movieverse version of sacrificing the life force of many captured draenei. Which makes more sense.
It also arguably better explains the Path of Glory. It always seemed kinda logistically silly to me for the orcs to have gone out of their way carting tons of bones from slaughtering draenei everywhere else in Draenor to pave the road in a region where hardly any draenei actually lived. It makes more sense for there to be that many draenei bones in Tanaan/Hellfire of all places if they're actually from a massive number of sacrificial victims Gul'dan used to open the Dark Portal.

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  #52  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:53 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
It and other things not being in Rise of the Horde? I don't know.
Rise of the Horde is just out of date, sadly. It's still my favorite WoW novel, but it's age is showing badly.

That said, I really, really hope they retcon Doomhammer back to drinking the Blood of Mannoroth.
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  #53  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:07 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by DerpiusMaximus View Post
That said, I really, really hope they retcon Doomhammer back to drinking the Blood of Mannoroth.
Why?

Half the reason he was a more effective leader than Blackhand was because not drinking the blood kept him clear-headed and prevented Gul'dan from directly exerting influence over him through the fel corruption.
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  #54  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:10 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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Why?

Half the reason he was a more effective leader than Blackhand was because not drinking the blood kept him clear-headed and prevented Gul'dan from directly exerting influence over him through the fel corruption.
Because it makes him look even worse than orcs who did drink the blood. He had no excuses for shitty behavior.
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  #55  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:14 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by DerpiusMaximus View Post
Because it makes him look even worse than orcs who did drink the blood. He had no excuses for shitty behavior.
So you take issue with him being an actual character, then? Instead of just another "none of it was really our fault 'cuz fel blood" orc?

Last edited by ARM3481; 02-17-2017 at 10:24 PM..
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  #56  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:34 PM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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Originally Posted by DerpiusMaximus View Post
Because it makes him look even worse than orcs who did drink the blood. He had no excuses for shitty behavior.
Doomhammer was always pragmatic leader. An early Garrosh if I could say. Doomhammer had an entire Horde to appease, lead and rule. What is deemed evil and bad, is justifiable and 'right' in the Old Horde's eyes.. Doomhammer having excuse other than the aforementioned will wretch upon his character.
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  #57  
Old 02-17-2017, 11:51 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
It's perhaps possible that after having Grond eliminate the Sporemounds, Aggramar may have implemented measures to directly shape the plantlife's evolution in order to maintain their perpetual stalemate with the Breakers and prevent them from returning to their original state of overgrowing everything.

Or maybe the Sporemounds adapt intelligently to Grond's attack, and Aggramar sees that reaction as something that he can further provoke and steer toward evolving the "sentient ecosystem" into a biome that's more conducive toward coexisting with other life.

After all, the Evergrowth seemingly devoured everything in its path, while in WoD we see myriad animals that seem to coexist as functional parts of the Primal blooms, pollinating the plants and providing additional defense against attack.
Another possibility, which we'll obvs. need the book to confirm, is that Aggramar's plan to introduce an agent that would balance the Evergrowth and create equilibrium on Draenor actually worked. As in nothing fucked with it in a way that Aggramar didn't already do the math on, like an Old God infestation.

This would explain why the Primals vs. Breakers conflict we saw demonstrated in WoD would be maintained all the way to the present, while also maintaining the concept of Draenor being #Savage.

It does NOT help explain wtf the Pale are all about, because between that and the Sketh'lon arakkoa there's a non-trivial amount of evidence to suggest that there's at least a tiny bit of old god fuckery going on, but we can't speculate on what wasn't in the preview at this stage.
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  #58  
Old 02-18-2017, 12:01 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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It does NOT help explain wtf the Pale are all about, because between that and the Sketh'lon arakkoa there's a non-trivial amount of evidence to suggest that there's at least a tiny bit of old god fuckery going on, but we can't speculate on what wasn't in the preview at this stage.
The thing is, the Void's a lot bigger and more omnipresent than the Old Gods. They needn't be specifically present for the Void's influence to reach out; they're just the Void Lords' means of directly getting hands-on. As such, I'm caused to wonder if the Pale are a result of shamans who fail and earn the spirits' ire because they seek to control the elements during their pilgrimage rather than submit.

We know from Chronicle Vol. 1 that Decay plays a part in subjugating the elements' wills, so when denied in trying to do so, unworthy shamans might be left at the mercy of the dark energies from their failed attempt, dragging them closer to the Void and twisting them in the process.

The cosmology chart may not be a complete representation of how such things work, but Decay's position relative to death and undeath, combined with its shared overlap with Void into necromancy, makes me think if you play around with Decay it's a short leap to getting dragged into Void. Almost like Decay is itself the "essence" of moving toward death and nothingness.

The inverse of Spirit which, based upon the apparent rampant growth of the plants on ancient Draenor coupled with Azeroth's titan hogging all the Spirit there, seems like the "essence" of moving toward life.

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  #59  
Old 02-18-2017, 12:08 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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You know, that makes me think.

Spirit/life is treated as a "fifth element" in lore, and in the magic diagram from the first chronicle decay was placed as a sixth element, but it doesn't really seem to be treated as an elemental force like spirit.
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  #60  
Old 02-18-2017, 12:13 AM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Originally Posted by DerpiusMaximus View Post
Because it makes him look even worse than orcs who did drink the blood. He had no excuses for shitty behavior.
Nigga, Doomhammer not having drank the demon jizz is literally the best thing about his character. He's the goddamn Genghis Khan of Warcraft, not some drug-riddled Hitler wannabe.

The dude carefully calculates his moves, plans out strategies, and even dabbles in diplomacy with foreign heads of state to secure alliances. One of the most interesting and compelling things about Doomhammer's character is that he HAS to wage a terrible war for the sake of his fucked up people. He doesn't really have any other alternative. He's a villain by necessity (and I use villain loosely, because he's not really evil so much as he is someone who opposes "the Designated Heroes") not by desire.

In a setting like Warcraft where every leader is typically "good" or "bad," Doomhammer is a refreshing alternative. So many characters in Warcraft are either Superman or Darkseid. It's nice to see someone a little more rounded and a little more gray in terms of morality.

It's really unfortunate that there aren't as many interesting characters as Doomhammer.
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  #61  
Old 02-18-2017, 12:14 AM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
Another possibility, which we'll obvs. need the book to confirm, is that Aggramar's plan to introduce an agent that would balance the Evergrowth and create equilibrium on Draenor actually worked. As in nothing fucked with it in a way that Aggramar didn't already do the math on, like an Old God infestation.

This would explain why the Primals vs. Breakers conflict we saw demonstrated in WoD would be maintained all the way to the present, while also maintaining the concept of Draenor being #Savage.

It does NOT help explain wtf the Pale are all about, because between that and the Sketh'lon arakkoa there's a non-trivial amount of evidence to suggest that there's at least a tiny bit of old god fuckery going on, but we can't speculate on what wasn't in the preview at this stage.
Possible Aggramar ended up interfering a little bit more and the bit of Titan tech that was available was what the Apexis then built upon. Their actions may have then lead to something with the Void (like summoning an Old God) followed by their civilization getting engulfed by it. The Old God then caused the Curse of Flesh on the Breakers which lead to the Ogres. Hell maybe the Apexis are a result of Aggramar wanting a more intelligent race to fight the Primals.

Last edited by Leviathon; 02-18-2017 at 12:20 AM..
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  #62  
Old 02-18-2017, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
(and I use villain loosely, because he's not really evil so much as he is someone who opposes "the Designated Heroes")
Does "designated" mean "non-belligerent defenders and sedentary peoples who are invaded by space-aliens?"
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  #63  
Old 02-18-2017, 12:56 AM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Does "designated" mean "non-belligerent defenders and sedentary peoples who are invaded by space-aliens?"
No, it means pretentious goons who can't resist the urge to split hairs in an attempt to look clever.
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  #64  
Old 02-18-2017, 12:57 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
You know, that makes me think.

Spirit/life is treated as a "fifth element" in lore, and in the magic diagram from the first chronicle decay was placed as a sixth element, but it doesn't really seem to be treated as an elemental force like spirit.
Considering its placement, I have to wonder if it acts more like a "lacking" elements. I.e. an absence of Spirit, the way Void is in many ways basically an absence of Light.

As such, perhaps Spirit and Decay are in effect the elements of dynamism between life and death, Light an Void, willpower and submission. Light and Life counterbalancing Void and Death would be the fundamental "static" opposites, with the elements of Spirit and Decay being the directional "momentum" of back-and-forth between them.

Hence when you get too much Spirit, things veer off toward "too much life" asserting itself to the point of behaving almost cancerous and detrimental to its own surroundings as it silences even the elements, while an imbalanced dearth of Spirit (i.e. an abundance of Decay), produces the opposite extreme of sapping willpower and assertive growth such that vibrant life is suppressed while the elements are driven mad by the overpowering urge kill each other.

Decay wouldn't necessarily be as readily recognized as a standalone element - though it would be one - because to the observer it looks like just a lack of Spirit. To the mind of a shaman, that wouldn't necessarily constitute an element, the same way most mortal adherents of the Light (and even the mages of Dalaran) didn't really recognize the existence of its counterpoint as such until only recently (hence Natalie Seline's works being censured back then.)

After all, of the four traditional elements, two - wind and fire - are arguably treated more as manifest energy states rather than outright matter, so they already aren't locked into requiring strict tangibility (wind is often called "air," but its classical and fantasy treatment as an element generally focuses predominantly on the movement/energy that makes it seem "present" - be it wind, thunder or lightning - rather than its scientifically understood nature as a conglomeration of myriad chemical gases.) So with the four classical elements already fairly loose in their acceptance as the same types of "things," it's perhaps only slightly more of a stretch to theorize that Spirit and Decay are in effect the elements of opposing metaphysical inertias as reflected in the states of the rest.

(Incidentally, I've found that when one considers the more energetic natures of fire and air compared to the strictly tangible and material natures of earth and water, their positions on the cosmology chart in relation to arcane and fel begin to make a bit more sense. Fire and air basically embody the "breaking down" elements; fire burns and wind erodes like the disordered entropy of the fel. Conversely, earth and water are very much physical, matter-based elements that hold form unless acted upon from without, not unlike the ordered, crystalline rigidity of the arcane. Thus like the arcane, water and earth are inclined to remain as they are when left alone, while like the fel, fire and air are driven to "move around" and consume in order to perpetuate themselves. Which arguably fits into Ragnaros and Al'akir being the crazier, more mercurial Elemental Lords who ended up siding with Deathwing. It's in their very nature as fire and air to desire to move around and "shake things up," while it was in the natures of Neptulon and Therazane as lords of water and earth to just want to be left the hell alone.)
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  #65  
Old 02-18-2017, 01:20 AM
Hades Hades is offline

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This picture is awesome. Love those different armors, the different shield shapes. I am not even sure if that non helmet human is actually a woman he could also be a young man. Also the background like like hillsbrad.

Btw, there are some symbols I don't recognize. The guy on judgement armor, his shield with a book and a sword, and his tabard's. And the shield on the guy at his right.


Great preview, really nice shit is coming.
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  #66  
Old 02-18-2017, 01:50 AM
Jungleluke Jungleluke is offline

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I wonder if Gorgrond is named after Grond?

Grond probably made an army of the giants used for Temples of the Damned after the Sporemounds adapted (which I assume means they made the Primals). Those giants became magnaron and so on.
Gorgrond IS named after Grond, he fell there, his rocky body being the land itself.

EDIT: Well, according to legend, the biggest Colussus fell there. So, probably Grond.

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  #67  
Old 02-18-2017, 01:58 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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hordecraft?
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  #68  
Old 02-18-2017, 02:01 AM
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It and other things not being in Rise of the Horde? I don't know.
Rise of the Horde was terrible in the terms of worldbuilding, though. It made the world appear too small and tame, same for the orc clans, and it had this one classic Golden problem. It presented the world as in lore as nearly identical to the world as in the game. Going solely by it, one could easily assume that Outland is nearly identical to old Draenor minus the seas and some coastal areas, which is not exactly a good thing. And the reason why many previously mentioned locations, including Frostfire Ridge, were missing.

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Originally Posted by Melorandor View Post
Doomhammer was always pragmatic leader. An early Garrosh if I could say. Doomhammer had an entire Horde to appease, lead and rule. What is deemed evil and bad, is justifiable and 'right' in the Old Horde's eyes.. Doomhammer having excuse other than the aforementioned will wretch upon his character.
Indeed. It also adds more of the geopolitical struggle kind of character to the conflict, something us the old Warcraft II fans prefer at large. BaronGrackle would go to great lengths to explain how Warcraft II was not a story of good and evil fighting each other, but rather a story of two philosophically different factions vying for dominance, and I would support that notion.

If I were being completely honest, I'd actually prefer if the number of orcs who drank the blood was reduced somewhat.
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  #69  
Old 02-18-2017, 02:01 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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Nigga, Doomhammer not having drank the demon jizz is literally the best thing about his character. He's the goddamn Genghis Khan of Warcraft, not some drug-riddled Hitler wannabe.

The dude carefully calculates his moves, plans out strategies, and even dabbles in diplomacy with foreign heads of state to secure alliances. One of the most interesting and compelling things about Doomhammer's character is that he HAS to wage a terrible war for the sake of his fucked up people. He doesn't really have any other alternative. He's a villain by necessity (and I use villain loosely, because he's not really evil so much as he is someone who opposes "the Designated Heroes") not by desire.

In a setting like Warcraft where every leader is typically "good" or "bad," Doomhammer is a refreshing alternative. So many characters in Warcraft are either Superman or Darkseid. It's nice to see someone a little more rounded and a little more gray in terms of morality.

It's really unfortunate that there aren't as many interesting characters as Doomhammer.
All of this.

WarCraft needs far more characters like Doomhammer.
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  #70  
Old 02-18-2017, 02:55 AM
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So ogres (and orcs) are basically the descendants of four-element infernals?
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  #71  
Old 02-18-2017, 03:00 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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I really like that in the BtDP excerpt, they show Khadgar using portals to move the armies around. The troops moving around so quickly was one thing that bothered me in the novel.
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  #72  
Old 02-18-2017, 03:09 AM
Thornedale Thornedale is offline

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You know, the fact that Doomhammer is a more interesting character and the fact that he did it for his people, finding himself under these circumstances, together with other sympathetic traits, doesn't make him less responsible. It still was a damn conquest. Human leaders ended up being quite merciful not to execute him in place.

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  #73  
Old 02-18-2017, 03:37 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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You know, the fact that Doomhammer is a more interesting character and the fact that he did it for his people, finding himself under these circumstances, together with other sympathetic traits, doesn't make him less responsible. It still was a damn conquest. Human leaders ended up being quite merciful not to execute him in place.
It was not really a mercy though, more your traditional political pragmatism on the part of Terenas;

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While the leaders of the Alliance argued over what was to be done with them, Orgrim Doomhammer, the Warchief of the Horde, was placed under arrest and kept as an honored prisoner under the care of King Terenas of Lordaeron. Having discussed the obvious benefits of a treaty with Doomhammer, King Terenas fervently hoped that the Orcs could be kept pacified long enough to eventually lose their lust for conquest. Thoras Trollbane of Stromgarde and Genn Greymane of Gilneas both disagreed vehemently with Terenas, resolving that the Orcs were too great a threat to leave alive.
Still, good point there, though I do not think anyone has been arguing otherwise.
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  #74  
Old 02-18-2017, 03:46 AM
handclaw handclaw is offline


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Orc Clanys Rally

Lother and refugees fleeing Stormwind

Gruul faces Deathwing
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  #75  
Old 02-18-2017, 03:46 AM
Insipid_Lobster Insipid_Lobster is offline

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All this artwork makes me want is the armour drawn to be cosmetic sets in-game. Those human paladins and soldiers gear is dope.
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