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Old 04-10-2017, 05:02 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Darkmoon Card: Twisting Nether Disastrous Demonic Dimensional Paradoxes

Catching up on the latest news and events of Warcraft, I'd like to ask: was the "One Legion Across Realities" paradox ever explained?

You know, the one where Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden were always the same people across multiple timelines, but there could be alternate Velens?

Thinking about it, I suppose it could work if the alternate realities did not always exist for the denizens of prime reality, but were created retroactively as "always existing" by outside actors, like the Bronze Dragons. As such, Archimonde can be chilling in the Nether, then finds out there's another universe, with a Velen bearing a similar grudge against him, even though he never fought that Velen specifically, because of a retroactively created alternate history.

But then, when we look at the events where Nether denizens interact with nob-Nether ones, does the alternate universe effect the Nether? For example, the "Warlords of Draenor" universe was "tuned in" around the time that Mannoroth and Kil'Jaeden corrupted the orcs: does that mean that due to the needs of the alternate timeline Mannoroth's regeneration accelerated so that he could appear on Draenor and offer his blood to the orcs? Could the Legion constantly revert universes to the times their greatest generals were alive and regenerate that way?

Is it possible to access infinite Azeroths, and thus infinite World Souls?
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Old 04-10-2017, 05:12 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Old 04-10-2017, 05:15 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Is it possible to access infinite Azeroths, and thus infinite World Souls?
As far as I am aware/recall, accessing infinite Draenors and recruiting all of their orcs was Wrathion's plan.
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Old 04-10-2017, 05:18 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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As far as I am aware/recall, accessing infinite Draenors and recruiting all of their orcs was Wrathion's plan.
Could that lead to infinitely resurrecting Mannoroths?

How would Singular Mannoroth manage infinite Draenors?
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Old 04-10-2017, 05:28 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Could that lead to infinitely resurrecting Mannoroths?

How would Singular Mannoroth manage infinite Draenors?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Maybe they have infinite multiple personalities than can each focus on one universe?
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Old 04-10-2017, 05:35 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Maybe they have infinite multiple personalities than can each focus on one universe?
Meh, then there's no purpose for the "Singular Legion" retroactive continuity anyway if its multiple universal personalities!

Last edited by Kir the Wizard; 04-10-2017 at 05:42 PM..
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Old 04-10-2017, 06:40 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Could that lead to infinitely resurrecting Mannoroths?

How would Singular Mannoroth manage infinite Draenors?
I used to donate platelets every two weeks.
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Old 04-10-2017, 06:40 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Just a bit of speculation here, but...

Consider that the time doesn't really function the same way in the Twisting Nether as it does in the Great Dark. The Nether is, in a way, the moment of collision between Light and Void that sparked creation, still playing out. And playing out forever, because in that moment, reality didn't exist yet, and as Time is part of reality, Time didn't either. Hence why portals can allow instantaneous travel between distant points; by basically crossing through the Twisting Nether, you capitalize on its lack of regular Time.

As such, while in the Twisting Nether, the demons may be effectively living within that same eternal, perpetual moment, striking out from it into any number of worlds and realities. It's only when they've actually crossed over into the Great Dark that the laws of normal time are imposed upon them, and even then, those laws only apply so long as they remain in the physical universe.

It seems to us that it takes years for, say, Mannoroth or Archimonde to regenerate, but that might not precisely be the case. For the sake of practicality it may be, but in reality it might just take those years for them to return to our time because they can't do so until their souls have completely departed the physical realm, whereupon in the Nether where Time is less meaningful, the constitution process itself could be instantaneous.

As such, Mannoroth and Archimonde could return to Draenor because at that particular point in regular time in that alternate universe, their souls weren't still in the process of filtering back from the Great Dark to the Twisting Nether.

Now, one might ask, "why can't they come back right away then, if the Nether is removed from normal time and they immediately come back?" Well, that's both simple and not-simple, as even if within the Nether the laws of time and space are lax if not suspended entirely, the Great Dark still has orderly physical and magical laws dictating what's allowed to happen in it. The limitations and requirements to summon demons of such power remain in place, so they can't just arbitrarily reoccupy their own dead bodies; their regenerated forms would have to be summoned all over again or (in the case of Gul'dan resurrecting Mannoroth on Draenor) someone in the physical realm with sufficient power would have to facilitate their return in such a manner.

We know that demons' souls are anchored to the Twisting Nether; it's why they always return and regenerate there when killed. That means even when they cross over to invade worlds in the Great Dark, some part of them is still in the Nether that pulls their soul back in the event of their physical death (or, as one might posit from the WotA, heaves them bodily back to the Nether in the event of the portal they used to cross over violently collapsing.) So after their deaths in Kalimdor, Mannoroth and Archimonde couldn't immediately return because until their souls finished returning, as far as the laws of Time and Space on Azeroth are concerned the "tether" anchoring them to the Twisting Nether was still present.

Unlike mortals, demons seem to don't carry the totality of their souls with them in our reality; there's that "piece" back in the Nether to which they remain bound as a sort of "return point" when they die (and perhaps even when they just head back to the Nether by choice.) In that vein, one might speculate that there is only one Legion assailing many realities because there outright can only be one Legion, because there's only one Twisting Nether, and being anchored to the Nether means two of any single demon can't coexist at the same point in time in the same physical universe.
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Old 04-10-2017, 07:19 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Old 04-10-2017, 09:43 PM
Almed Almed is offline

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Warlords of Draenor should have never happened.
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:03 PM
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Warlords of Draenor should have never happened.
Agreed.

Also, belated welcome-back Kir.
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:18 PM
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I used to donate platelets every review of the kw finder here to read.
To who?

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Old 04-11-2017, 12:59 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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To who?
Orcs.
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Old 04-11-2017, 02:08 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I remember adressing this once with a theory of mine in the Random Lore Talks Thread.

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It actually can make sense with one possible explanation that's based on what we know so far. Though it depends if Blizzard goes with it once they decide to fully explain it.

What kind of explanation? Let's say that alternative universes do not exist by themselves per se, but they only exist as possibilities (something heavily implied) that need to be materialized and stabilized first, and let's say that when such a possibility is formed, it forms only at the moment it branches from the main universe. And finally let's say the first such possibilities begun forming only some time after Sargeras corrupted the Eredar, perhaps as a delayed undirect effect of Aman'Thul's death.

What exactly does that solve? Well, first of all, there wouldn't be that many materialized alternative universes to begin with, and probably there'd be only one both materialized and stabilized. But more importantly, it'd mean that all alternative universes, both potential and materialized, came to be only after the death of the Pantheon, the creation of the Legion and the corruption of the Eredar, hence why there'd be no alternative Titans, nor any alternative Archimonde and so on, as demons have their spirits tethered to the Nether, a place separate from these universes, hence their copies there would be still filled with their only demonic soul.
To elaborate further, imagine it as this. The whole multiverse is a tree. There's the original prime universe, one created by the clash of Light and Shadow, and it forms the trunk of the tree. The Twisting Nether is tangentially attached to it, and serves to hold the souls of all demons, among other matters. Now, we follow the trunk and pass by events such Aman’Thul’s awakening, Sargeras’ fall, the Pantheon’s destruction, the corruption of the Eredar, and there are no branches, none at all. Finally, after some time, perhaps a result of the Pantheon’s destruction, we start finding first branches. Each branch is its own alternative universe, forming the moment the first divergence from the prime universe appears, yet up until the point of their formation, they are still part of the prime universe, and even after it, they are still attached to the only existing Twisting Nether. Some branches then wither away rather quickly, being only mere echoes or possibilities that never stabilize, but some grow healthy and strong, perhaps with some external aid, perhaps without it.

As such, there would be no alternative Pantheon, as the Titans had died before the formation of the very first alternative universe. There would be no alternative Archimonde, Mannoroth, or Kil’jaeden either, as all these had become demons, having their souls attached to the Twisting Nether, well before the formation of the first alternative universe as well. True, a creation of an alternative universe might, depending on the circumstances, give them a new body, but this body would still be filled with their only demonic soul, unlike with the mortals, who would be completely separate in both soul and body after the divergence.
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:21 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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What kind of explanation? Let's say that alternative universes do not exist by themselves per se, but they only exist as possibilities (something heavily implied) that need to be materialized and stabilized first, and let's say that when such a possibility is formed, it forms only at the moment it branches from the main universe. And finally let's say the first such possibilities begun forming only some time after Sargeras corrupted the Eredar, perhaps as a delayed undirect effect of Aman'Thul's death.

[...]

As such, there would be no alternative Pantheon, as the Titans had died before the formation of the very first alternative universe. There would be no alternative Archimonde, Mannoroth, or Kil’jaeden either, as all these had become demons, having their souls attached to the Twisting Nether, well before the formation of the first alternative universe as well. True, a creation of an alternative universe might, depending on the circumstances, give them a new body, but this body would still be filled with their only demonic soul, unlike with the mortals, who would be completely separate in both soul and body after the divergence.
Yeah, that's what I thought of too. Artificially solidified universes that get retroactive history of theirs written after creation. As such, guys like Archi and KJ would not have to relive their pre-Demonic histories all over again, it would have already been "written".
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:42 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Meh, then there's no purpose for the "Singular Legion" retroactive continuity anyway if its multiple universal personalities!
You are giving this more thought than Blizzard. You are overthinking this. They have not bothered to explain this, and most likely never will.

It's 2017 people how are y'all still not accepting the concept of alternate universes (minus the one legion)? Half of you are Trekkies.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:09 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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You are giving this more thought than Blizzard. You are overthinking this. They have not bothered to explain this, and most likely never will.

It's 2017 people how are y'all still not accepting the concept of alternate universes (minus the one legion)? Half of you are Trekkies.
I do accept it, just that it would easily make more sense if either there were infinite Legions.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:24 AM
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They didn't come up with the One Legion retcon until after fans complained about how they were running around on another Orcland fighting more Orcs and not actually doing something important.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:25 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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They didn't come up with the One Legion retcon until after fans complained about how they were running around on another Orcland fighting more Orcs and not actually doing something important.
Fans complain about lots of things.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:59 PM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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To elaborate further, imagine it as this. The whole multiverse is a tree. There's the original prime universe, one created by the clash of Light and Shadow, and it forms the trunk of the tree. The Twisting Nether is tangentially attached to it, and serves to hold the souls of all demons, among other matters. Now, we follow the trunk and pass by events such Aman’Thul’s awakening, Sargeras’ fall, the Pantheon’s destruction, the corruption of the Eredar, and there are no branches, none at all. Finally, after some time, perhaps a result of the Pantheon’s destruction, we start finding first branches. Each branch is its own alternative universe, forming the moment the first divergence from the prime universe appears, yet up until the point of their formation, they are still part of the prime universe, and even after it, they are still attached to the only existing Twisting Nether. Some branches then wither away rather quickly, being only mere echoes or possibilities that never stabilize, but some grow healthy and strong, perhaps with some external aid, perhaps without it.

As such, there would be no alternative Pantheon, as the Titans had died before the formation of the very first alternative universe. There would be no alternative Archimonde, Mannoroth, or Kil’jaeden either, as all these had become demons, having their souls attached to the Twisting Nether, well before the formation of the first alternative universe as well. True, a creation of an alternative universe might, depending on the circumstances, give them a new body, but this body would still be filled with their only demonic soul, unlike with the mortals, who would be completely separate in both soul and body after the divergence.
The problem I have with this is: Aman'Thul charged Nozdormu with guarding the timeways, warning him of those who would try to tinker with the One True Reality™ and change it for something else. And the implication is that each of the Titans empowered an Aspect with the powers they had themselves, so Aman'Thul would also be able to travel through time and see the hundreds of different paths the universe could take. That would mean the Multiverse existed, at least in potentia, even back then.

Now, time travel does not equal alternate universe, necessarily. There may be indeed only a single timeline. One could argue that Aman'Thul's words about the main timeline being the One True Reality™ actually confirm the "trunk-with-branches" theory. The appearance of alternate universes, itself, could be a consequence of the Highfather's death - without someone to "prune" the tree of reality, it started sprouting wild branches everywhere...

But still, if Aman'Thul considered the threat of reality-warping-time-travel-shenanigans serious enough to warrant the empowering of an Aspect, it means that there was a real possibility of history derailing way before Sargeras' fall, or Nihilam, or the corruption of the Eredar... And if it did, why don't we see the evidences of it?

Which brings me to why I hate the One Legion idea so much: it empties what is arguably the only point of having an alternate universe in the first place.

If there's only One Legion through all realities, and all demons are singularities which operate from the Twisting Nether, that means if say, Velen was corrupted, there would be a Man'nari Velen in the Legion. The fact we haven't seen a Man'nari Velen means that, through all possible realities, Velen refused Sargeras. And that can be awesomely inspiring, but, again, it makes having an AU superfluous. We already have an uncorrupted Velen! We don't need to go to another universe to see him!

Similarly, there was never an universe in which Aggramar decided to join Sargeras, since a Fel Titan would also be a singularity, and we haven't seen him. There's no universe where Eonar or Norgannon or Golganneth fell instead of Sargeras. There's also apparently no universe in which Azeroth defenses are weak enough to allow Sargeras to win the War of the Ancients, considering that, again, there's no other Fel Titan in the Twisting Nether, and Sargeras' objective is to recruit Azeroth into his Crusade. There's no universe in which the Aldrachi accepted Sargeras proposal, or they would be part of the Legion, even if hailing from a single backwater universe.

If you're including alternate universes in your franchise and don't allow for the possibility of a heroic Lex Luthor battling against a villainous Superman... Why the heck do you have an alternate universe for?!
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:20 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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.
If you're including alternate universes in your franchise and don't allow for the possibility of a heroic Lex Luthor battling against a villainous Superman... Why the heck do you have an alternate universe for?!
*Thunderous applause*

Beautifully worded, it's a sad day when HotS does multiverses better than WoW
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:40 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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I don't expect a proper explanation of the Legion thing until the according Chronicles volume, maybe.

Anyway, my belief is that rather than ONE LEGION, there is ONE TWISTING NETHER. It's kinda esotheric but to explain in detail, i think there are as many versions of the same demon as timelines where s/he exists, living in parallel, just like it's the case for dwellers of the physical universe; however if there is only one Nether, it could mean that unlike them, when two timelines are linked, instead of having 2 copies, both versions of the demon align. This means that when Kairoz linked our timeline to WoDs AU our Mannie, Archie, Kiljaeden, etc became theirs and vice versa and as in WoDs timeline, they still had physical bodies, this meant that suddenly they had physical bodies again.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:21 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Warlords of Draenor should have never happened.
It would have been fine it were handled differently.
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Old 04-12-2017, 03:53 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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If there's only One Legion through all realities, and all demons are singularities which operate from the Twisting Nether, that means if say, Velen was corrupted, there would be a Man'nari Velen in the Legion. The fact we haven't seen a Man'nari Velen means that, through all possible realities, Velen refused Sargeras. And that can be awesomely inspiring, but, again, it makes having an AU superfluous. We already have an uncorrupted Velen! We don't need to go to another universe to see him!

Similarly, there was never an universe in which Aggramar decided to join Sargeras, since a Fel Titan would also be a singularity, and we haven't seen him. There's no universe where Eonar or Norgannon or Golganneth fell instead of Sargeras. There's also apparently no universe in which Azeroth defenses are weak enough to allow Sargeras to win the War of the Ancients, considering that, again, there's no other Fel Titan in the Twisting Nether, and Sargeras' objective is to recruit Azeroth into his Crusade. There's no universe in which the Aldrachi accepted Sargeras proposal, or they would be part of the Legion, even if hailing from a single backwater universe.

If you're including alternate universes in your franchise and don't allow for the possibility of a heroic Lex Luthor battling against a villainous Superman... Why the heck do you have an alternate universe for?!
The One Legion thing makes me wonder if a "Heroic Lex Luthor" thing is actually possible now. Can an Archimonde from alternate universe refuse Sargeras, or is he destined to become part of the Evil Singularity?
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Old 04-12-2017, 06:54 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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The One Legion thing makes me wonder if a "Heroic Lex Luthor" thing is actually possible now. Can an Archimonde from alternate universe refuse Sargeras, or is he destined to become part of the Evil Singularity?
If 75% of Kil'jaedens accepted Sargeras and 25% of Kil'jaedens refused him, then at that moment in time did 75% of the Kil'jaedens merge to become a single demon Kil'jaeden, while the remaining 25% stayed as distinct and good Kil'jaedens?

To follow the comic book thinking... can a single evil Batman stand a chance against a billion good Batmans?
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