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Old 05-26-2017, 04:44 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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You're still not getting it. Cantus did a pretty good job of spelling it out. You're underestimating the value of uncertainty.
I get it just fine.

There would be cause for concern if he said the subs were in korean waters.

He didnt. He didnt reveal wherabouts other than a basic "over there".

Which was already known.
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  #54327  
Old 05-26-2017, 04:57 PM
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I get it just fine.

There would be cause for concern if he said the subs were in korean waters.

He didnt. He didnt reveal wherabouts other than a basic "over there".

Which was already known.
Here's where you and I will (gasp) agree. The press is unreliable when it comes to talking about intelligence and military engagements.

When someone in the press reports that subs are going to a location, there's a degree of uncertainty. It could be there already. It could be just starting its journey. It could be just leaving. It could be a statement that Naval Intelligence gave to them in order to make people search aimlessly for a ship. The press isn't really privy to this kind of info in real time, because that's considered a national security issue. Anything they say can and should be taken with a grain of salt until it's corroborated by other sources.

On the other hand, when the President (who has previously shown, on multiple occasions, almost no sense of care in regards to intelligence assets) talks about these things, it's a definitive statement. There is a sub and it is in this location.
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Old 05-26-2017, 05:18 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I am happy the new administration gave more control to military experts instead of arm chair generals and increased the budget of the DoD but when are we going to start seeing taxes reformed or the excesses of government cut? There are budget blue prints but I want to see them put into action. Like a cornered animal the vested powers will resist but they can only do so for so long. The faux outrage hasn't resulted in any sort of political advantage.

When will the public sector become right to work so we can start getting rid of the bad workers to make government more accountable and efficient? I feel like this should be in the purview of the president since those are his employees.
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Old 05-26-2017, 05:24 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I might be able to find a few news articles about recent SEAL, SFOD-D, and other SOCOM operations. That doesn't mean I should post the countries in which I know specific SOF group is operating right now.
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Old 05-26-2017, 05:32 PM
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I am happy the new administration gave more control to military experts instead of arm chair generals and increased the budget of the DoD but when are we going to start seeing taxes reformed or the excesses of government cut? There are budget blue prints but I want to see them put into action. Like a cornered animal the vested powers will resist but they can only do so for so long. The faux outrage hasn't resulted in any sort of political advantage.

When will the public sector become right to work so we can start getting rid of the bad workers to make government more accountable and efficient? I feel like this should be in the purview of the president since those are his employees.
So you're happy Trump gave the Saudis billions in arms to continue waging war in Yemen? Or are you happy that he revealed classified information twice in the same month to the detriment of our national security? Or what about his willingness to screw over our future force projection options by reverting carriers to obsolete technology?

Seriously, what in god's name can you be proud of here?
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Old 05-26-2017, 05:56 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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So you're happy Trump gave the Saudis billions in arms to continue waging war in Yemen? Or are you happy that he revealed classified information twice in the same month to the detriment of our national security? Or what about his willingness to screw over our future force projection options by reverting carriers to obsolete technology?

Seriously, what in god's name can you be proud of here?
I mean, he didnt though?

EMALS is moving forward? And the entire EMAL projects been a bit of a clusterfuck.

Steam is certainly obsolete. The catapult puts more stress on the airframe, it cant fire as often, and its got a litany of other issues.

But EMALS still better. And still moving forward.

He also approved modernazation of government equipment, so im thrilled with that
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Old 05-26-2017, 06:47 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I mean, he didnt though?

EMALS is moving forward? And the entire EMAL projects been a bit of a clusterfuck.

Steam is certainly obsolete. The catapult puts more stress on the airframe, it cant fire as often, and its got a litany of other issues.

But EMALS still better. And still moving forward.

He also approved modernazation of government equipment, so im thrilled with that
I think Trump is still learning a lot of things. Obama took his campus politics into the white house and had to learn a lot of lessons because of it early in his presidency when reality didn't match up. I am going to side with General McMasters on this over the Washington Post though.

The leaks though are really concerning. I think a lot of people who receive their well being and purpose through the government will believe anything in order to maintain it even when it blatantly ignores reality. That is what I mean when I use the term circle jerk. A lot of these leakers are Obama's people and the civil work force in general is extremely liberal. It isn't a surprise when you consider who gives them unfireable jobs, insane benefits, and power/perks unrivaled anywhere else. They deny their negative influence on the country the same way the energy industry denies pollution. It is just an inconvenient truth that they are unwilling to accept. You would think all the elections against them would dampen their enthusiasm but they have become masters at this sort of mental gymnastics. I don't have much faith in reasoning with them here. They just need to be trimmed and held accountable so this bureaucratic ossification can't take hold. Those who have power never give it up easily and I think that is what we are seeing here.
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Old 05-26-2017, 07:00 PM
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You need to elaborate on the first sentence.

In terms of EMAL, the point is fairly simple. Going backward doesn't help us. Yes, the F-35 program and other advanced projects are problematic, but screaming that we go backwards (as Trump was quoted doing) means that we sacrifice future force projection for current basic capability.

Instead of being a man-child about the project, Trump could've talked about delaying deployment of new carriers and extending the life of current ones. Instead he pushed for backwards options and it took those around him to convince him he was being a dipshit.

Every report on Trump shows a very clear trend, the man doesn't understand what's going on anymore and is beholden to whomever currently has his ear. He's not fit to sign-off on any of our armed forces current operations, much less set us up for the future.
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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
I think Trump is still learning a lot of things. Obama took his campus politics into the white house and had to learn a lot of lessons because of it early in his presidency when reality didn't match up. I am going to side with General McMasters on this over the Washington Post though.

The leaks though are really concerning. I think a lot of people who receive their well being and purpose through the government will believe anything in order to maintain it even when it blatantly ignores reality. That is what I mean when I use the term circle jerk. A lot of these leakers are Obama's people and the civil work force in general is extremely liberal. It isn't a surprise when you consider who gives them unfireable jobs, insane benefits, and power/perks unrivaled anywhere else. They deny their negative influence on the country the same way the energy industry denies pollution. It is just an inconvenient truth that they are unwilling to accept. You would think all the elections against them would dampen their enthusiasm but they have become masters at this sort of mental gymnastics. I don't have much faith in reasoning with them here. They just need to be trimmed and held accountable so this bureaucratic ossification can't take hold. Those who have power never give it up easily and I think that is what we are seeing here.
Have you just given up trying to claim you don't support Trump? Because, to date, you've claimed you didn't vote for him and yet consistently defended everything he's done. And I mean everything.

I'm pretty sure if he forced the Joint Chiefs to fellate Putin, you'd claim it was just a test of strength and fortitude.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:05 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blo...or-the-feds-in

This is one of my favorite Trump picks. The US education system exists more to promote itself than to help students or the country. Someone that can fix a car or treat an illness has utility. Sycophancy and knowing how to win government money is not utility. A lot of people seem to get those two things mixed up but it is laughable that some people think they are the same thing. Education is so important it can't afford to not be pragmatic. This applies to K-12 and Higher Education equally as well.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:27 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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WaPo is still on a roll.
"Ambassador Sergei Kislyak reported to his superiors in Moscow that Kushner, then President-elect Trump’s son-in-law and confidant, made the proposal during a meeting on Dec. 1 or 2 at Trump Tower, according to intercepts of Russian communications that were reviewed by U.S. officials. Kislyak said Kushner suggested using Russian diplomatic facilities in the United States for the communications.
The meeting also was attended by Michael Flynn, Trump’s first national security adviser.
The White House disclosed the fact of the meeting only in March, playing down its significance. But people familiar with the matter say the FBI now considers the encounter, as well as another meeting Kushner had with a Russian banker, to be of investigative interest."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...20a_story.html
I have a feeling the request for Kushner to testify before Congress might be related.
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Old 05-27-2017, 04:12 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I laugh at how scared some of you Yanks are of Russia and Putin. Like I'd love it if my country was able to ally with Russia (or China) because the whole West had effectively screwed us over. But for that to happen (my opinion) a) they need to prove themselves as legit friends and b) they need to be able to offer us a good deal and be able to prevent NATO retaliatory actions. On the matter of a) it's kind of somewhere between "meh" and "yeh?" but b) well, b) is the crapshoot. Russians don't have the economy to offer us a great deal and they certainly lack the capabilities to defend us from a NATO shadow counterstrike.

So if Russia can't secure an historic ally of relatively high strategic/power projection value nearby in Europe how can they hope to mess with the world's most powerful country?

What I think is happening is Russians are being turned into terrorists 2.0 (or rather, terrorists are Russians 2.0 ). A hyperinflated threat used to scare American citizens into remaining obedient and accepting increasingly crappy circumstances. Of course the biggest victims of this whole thing will be Russian citizens who will suffer under sanctions and if the West can push a coup then Russia is effectively over as a country no matter the outcome.

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Old 05-27-2017, 04:25 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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What I think is happening is Russians are being turned into terrorists 2.0 (or rather, terrorists are Russians 2.0 ). A hyperinflated threat used to scare American citizens into remaining obedient and accepting increasingly crappy circumstances. Of course the biggest victims of this whole thing will be Russian citizens who will suffer under sanctions and if the West can push a coup then Russia is effectively over as a country no matter the outcome.
They should use China for that.

Russia should be Western. It always should've been. If it hadn't been for the capitalism v. communism power struggle shenanigans during the entire 20th century, Russia most likely would've been.

Let's bury the hatchet and make Europa great again.
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Old 05-27-2017, 04:26 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I laugh at how scared some of you Yanks are of Russia and Putin. Like I'd love it if my country was able to ally with Russia (or China) because the whole West had effectively screwed us over. But for that to happen (my opinion) a) they need to prove themselves as legit friends and b) they need to be able to offer us a good deal and be able to prevent NATO retaliatory actions. On the matter of a) it's kind of somewhere between "meh" and "yeh?" but b) well, b) is the crapshoot. Russians don't have the economy to offer us a great deal and they certainly lack the capabilities to defend us from a NATO shadow counterstrike.

So if Russia can't secure an historic ally of relatively high strategic/power projection value nearby in Europe how can they hope to mess with the world's most powerful country?

What I think is happening is Russians are being turned into terrorists 2.0 (or rather, terrorists are Russians 2.0 ). A hyperinflated threat used to scare American citizens into remaining obedient and accepting increasingly crappy circumstances. Of course the biggest victims of this whole thing will be Russian citizens who will suffer under sanctions and if the West can push a coup then Russia is effectively over as a country no matter the outcome.
Not everyone is comfortable with being a puppet state controlled by a more powerful nation. I myself am not much of one for having a submission fetish. I suppose Europeans are just used to it by now.
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Old 05-27-2017, 04:43 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Not everyone is comfortable with being a puppet state controlled by a more powerful nation. I myself am not much of one for having a submission fetish. I suppose Europeans are just used to it by now.
Says the guy who went "Amerika da best you stupid" when I merely mentioned the European nations should take matters into their own hands and turn less dependant on the US. Hypocrite
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Old 05-27-2017, 04:46 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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The Kremlin interferes with their neighbors in a very negative way. That is why Poland and Romania sought out the US for protection. If they weren't pulling stunts like they did in Ukraine or Georgia I wouldn't mind being friends with Russia. We could fight radical Islamic terrorism together. I am just not willing to throw Ukraine under the bus for them.

Putin very much uses the evil other to boost authoritarianism at home.
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Old 05-27-2017, 07:10 AM
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Says the guy who went "Amerika da best you stupid" when I merely mentioned the European nations should take matters into their own hands and turn less dependant on the US. Hypocrite
He is a rather fickle lady, if you're on the America train, you gotta stay on it. I'm personally for every nation being their own unique selves. And all nations have beautiful and interesting ancestry and history they should preserve in their culture, even if they must quell immigration at times.

I just happen to think America is the winner of this season of Earth.
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Old 05-27-2017, 07:22 AM
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I'm personally for every nation being their own unique selves. And all nations have beautiful and interesting ancestry and history they should preserve in their culture, even if they must quell immigration at times.
Good times. But then #NoBorders and White Culture narratives happened.
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Old 05-27-2017, 07:23 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Says the guy who went "Amerika da best you stupid" when I merely mentioned the European nations should take matters into their own hands and turn less dependant on the US. Hypocrite
Either that or he is trolling people in a very malicious way. The reason I originally put him on ignore was that he was blatantly partisan, he could praise the ones he loves for a thing and then denounce the guys he doesn't for the exact same thing. He is also intentionally trying to goad people into having a nasty argument for no reason though admittedly he seems to have toned this down since I called him out on it. I only took him off ignore so he could participate in the SoL playlist but perhaps it is time he goes back

In this case besides what you pointed out (and I would enjoy an independent minded Europe as an ally even more than Russians btw) he also plays ignorant of the fact that there is not a single small country in the world right now that is not influenced to some degree by a bigger one. My country has a ton of ongoing issues and is strategically important, good fucking luck remaining perfectly sovereign. And even if somehow against all geopolitical reasoning the world left us alone it is still nice to have a friend in the world, being an ally need not mean being a slave (even though too often in the modern world, it does and the US is far from innocent). To put it in Civ5 terms, when dealing with minor countries sending gifts of gold is how you should do it, both sides win, but in the real world the powers that be much prefer gaining favour through staging coups
But he plays intentionally ignorant of this because he is a shitty poster. I mean we have been effectively under pro-Western puppet regimes since 2001, and when those puppets try and deviate even a tiny bit from what the US wants the muslims and Albanians in the country start getting rowdy and we get other crap from the West, what a coincidence. There is no carrot in the equation, only a stick and of course people hate it. But hey I must be wrong, being a US ally is great or so many here think
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Old 05-27-2017, 07:37 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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But hey I must be wrong, being a US ally is great or so many here think
Being America's bitch has it's advantages. Sorta. Moldova is one step away from being another Ukraine and I doubt the Kremlin wants to start shit on a Nato border.

Our country in particular really had no other option. Anti-Russian sentiments are still strong, the Ukraine crisis only reinforced them. And with Russia comes Turkey and China. And well, going beyond average diplomatic relations with Turkey is considered an insanity here.
Another thing I mentioned before, with America, at least we're not being treated openly like it's bitch. The soldiers come and go. And I don't remember any incidents with American personnel. Russian ambassadors have always mocked us as being beneath them. And the whole Might Makes Right mentality imposed on us by a foreign power doesn't sit well.

edit: I hope you don't take this as me being against Serbia's interests. That's your country's business what it does with it's foreign relations. Just wanted to explain the American relation from my country's perspective.

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Old 05-27-2017, 08:35 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Trump Administration Considers Moving Student Loans from Education Department to Treasury\

This is an interesting proposal.

The federal government shouldn't be in the business of federal loans. It is the primary driver of tuition costs and when so many people get degrees that don't benefit others instead of becoming a public investment it just becomes a way to make higher education richer and to help people pursue their own personal self-indulgence. Society needs more plumbers and electricians than another psychology major. $1.2 trillion dollars is excessive and the spectre of tax payers being on the hook for the governments and students bad decisions is terrifying. This is just like the housing crisis. Responsible people shouldn't have to bail out the irresponsible.

Trump should get rid of all the Obama hold overs though. They are only going to try and under mine him because he threatens their lavish perks, power, and unfireable jobs.

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Being America's bitch has it's advantages. Sorta. Moldova is one step away from being another Ukraine and I doubt the Kremlin wants to start shit on a Nato border.

Our country in particular really had no other option. Anti-Russian sentiments are still strong, the Ukraine crisis only reinforced them. And with Russia comes Turkey and China. And well, going beyond average diplomatic relations with Turkey is considered an insanity here.

Another thing I mentioned before, with America, at least we're not being treated openly like it's bitch. The soldiers come and go. Russian ambassadors have always mocked us as being beneath them. And the whole Might Makes Right mentality imposed on us by a foreign power doesn't sit well.
This American wuvs you and wants to protect you.
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Old 05-27-2017, 08:57 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Being America's bitch has it's advantages. Sorta. Moldova is one step away from being another Ukraine and I doubt the Kremlin wants to start shit on a Nato border.

Our country in particular really had no other option. Anti-Russian sentiments are still strong, the Ukraine crisis only reinforced them. And with Russia comes Turkey and China. And well, going beyond average diplomatic relations with Turkey is considered an insanity here.
Another thing I mentioned before, with America, at least we're not being treated openly like it's bitch. The soldiers come and go. And I don't remember any incidents with American personnel. Russian ambassadors have always mocked us as being beneath them. And the whole Might Makes Right mentality imposed on us by a foreign power doesn't sit well.

edit: I hope you don't take this as me being against Serbia's interests. That's your country's business what it does with it's foreign relations. Just wanted to explain the American relation from my country's perspective.
Nah, no offense taken.

I just wish we lived in a world where international relations were altruistic and not about psychopathic self interest and if that means screwing other people over, so be it. At no point should you go "that country is a dick" let alone say the same about your allies, but that is not the world we live in by any stretch of the imagination.

It gets frustrating living in a country where a lot of the moves made by the govt. make no sense or are actively harmful to the country. Makes it really easy to be pissed at their paymasters, and add in historical context and it is even easier.

/sigh

I love my country to death but I often wish I was born in Norway so I don't have to give a fuck about politics.
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Old 05-27-2017, 02:25 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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(and I would enjoy an independent minded Europe as an ally even more than Russians btw)
Good to hear.

As for Kakwakas, I rather won't comment.

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Being America's bitch has it's advantages. Sorta.
But the point was not that Europe should be Russia's bitch instead of America's, the point was that it should become its own actor. And you know, it is pretty telling how some Americans react to that very notion, shows how genuine their concern for Europe is. Because if it were genuine, they would welcome the idea of Europe becoming an equal and self-reliant partner instead of a dependant bitch.
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Old 05-27-2017, 02:31 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Being America's bitch has it's advantages. Sorta. Moldova is one step away from being another Ukraine and I doubt the Kremlin wants to start shit on a Nato border.

Our country in particular really had no other option. Anti-Russian sentiments are still strong, the Ukraine crisis only reinforced them. And with Russia comes Turkey and China. And well, going beyond average diplomatic relations with Turkey is considered an insanity here.
Another thing I mentioned before, with America, at least we're not being treated openly like it's bitch. The soldiers come and go. And I don't remember any incidents with American personnel. Russian ambassadors have always mocked us as being beneath them. And the whole Might Makes Right mentality imposed on us by a foreign power doesn't sit well.

edit: I hope you don't take this as me being against Serbia's interests. That's your country's business what it does with it's foreign relations. Just wanted to explain the American relation from my country's perspective.
For once, I'm agreeing with SmokeBlader. The world is much better off with America at the helm and I'd like us to stay there. We can't do that if our elections are determined by Russia.

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But the point was not that Europe should be Russia's bitch instead of America's, the point was that it should become its own actor. And you know, it is pretty telling how some Americans react to that very notion, shows how genuine their concern for Europe is. Because if it were genuine, they would welcome the idea of Europe becoming an equal and self-reliant partner instead of a dependant bitch.
That's not going to happen, though. As C9 pointed out, if your country is logistically or tactically valuable, other countries are going to do what they can to win influence over you. Unless you want to build maintain an army that can single-handedly fight off the US, Russia, or China, then you're probably gonna have to be allies with one of them.
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Old 05-27-2017, 02:51 PM
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Not necessarily. The EU is going through the same growing pains other superpowers had to deal with, except they've got the extra hurdles of being disparate cultures under the same economic umbrella and foreign powers meddling in it all. It's rough, and it probably won't happen until late in our lifetimes (or after), but it's possible for the EU to become a super-state.

And, honestly, I'd prefer if that's the case. With Trump's election, there's now (finally) direct proof that the US cannot be the "eternal herald of the west" it's always claimed. If just for the advancement of human right alone, we need another, similar super-state to act as a democratic force.

And, if anything, the EU is the better group for this. Unlike the US, they can push back against internal failures that would otherwise throw individual states/groups backwards (e.g. Trumpian Fascism).
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Old 05-27-2017, 03:02 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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That's not going to happen, though. As C9 pointed out, if your country is logistically or tactically valuable, other countries are going to do what they can to win influence over you. Unless you want to build maintain an army that can single-handedly fight off the US, Russia, or China, then you're probably gonna have to be allies with one of them.
Funny how you ignored the part where he stated that being an ally need not mean being a slave. Seems he was right in saying you intentionally play ignorant.

As for the bolded part, that's the idea.
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