Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > Scrolls of Lore > Halls of Lordaeron

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #55576  
Old 07-26-2017, 10:14 AM
Joeygiggles Joeygiggles is offline

Arch-Druid
Joeygiggles's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,150
BattleTag: Joeygiggles#1104

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
Are you sure?
According to the military. Because if it was then that would fall under the Mental Disorder, would it not?
I get what your trying to do but maybe you could be an adult and have an actual conversation instead of throwing out your one liners and memes
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #55577  
Old 07-26-2017, 10:17 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

Elune
Kakwakas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: US
Posts: 8,387

Darkmoon Card: Elementals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeygiggles View Post
According to the military. Because if it was then that would fall under the Mental Disorder, would it not?
I get what your trying to do but maybe you could be an adult and have an actual conversation instead of throwing out your one liners and memes
Ah, so now you're backpedaling from "it's a mental illness" to "i-it wasn't me saying that, it was them."
__________________
Member #14
Reply With Quote
  #55578  
Old 07-26-2017, 10:20 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,527

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeygiggles View Post
According to the military. Because if it was then that would fall under the Mental Disorder, would it not?
I get what your trying to do but maybe you could be an adult and have an actual conversation instead of throwing out your one liners and memes
Like the one liner you gave me at first?
It doesn't affect their ability to do their job so its just plain ol discrimination
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #55579  
Old 07-26-2017, 10:21 AM
Joeygiggles Joeygiggles is offline

Arch-Druid
Joeygiggles's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,150
BattleTag: Joeygiggles#1104

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
Ah, so now you're backpedaling from "it's a mental illness" to "i-it wasn't me saying that, it was them."
I never said being gay was a mental illness nor did i say the military said that, that was you who did
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
Being gay is a mental illness, but it's allowed, right?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #55580  
Old 07-26-2017, 10:25 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

Elune
Kakwakas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: US
Posts: 8,387

Darkmoon Card: Elementals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeygiggles View Post
I never said being gay was a mental illness nor did i say the military said that, that was you who did
So what did you mean by this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeygiggles View Post
Mental illness is a disqualification
I'll go ahead and give you my next question: How is being trans a mental illness but being gay is not?
__________________
Member #14
Reply With Quote
  #55581  
Old 07-26-2017, 10:45 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

Elune
Ruinshin's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 21,146

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Like the one liner you gave me at first?
It doesn't affect their ability to do their job so its just plain ol discrimination
Considering the high rate of suicide post oo of trans, coupled with the stressful lifestyle being in the military breeds, Id argue it does currently, and will continue to do so until better methods to ease and help those individuals come to fruition
__________________
Fucking Epic :X
Reply With Quote
  #55582  
Old 07-26-2017, 11:14 AM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

Eternal
Taintedmage's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,809

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Considering the high rate of suicide post oo of trans, coupled with the stressful lifestyle being in the military breeds, Id argue it does currently, and will continue to do so until better methods to ease and help those individuals come to fruition
Chances are that'll be just regarded as oppression. "Oh, they only commit suicide at disproportionate levels because they're being oppressed."

Look, Being gay does not involve self-mutilation. It does not involve cutting your tits off or cutting your cock off and pumping yourself full of hormones. The only thing this involves is sleeping with someone of the same sex, that's it.

Transgenderism is far closer to Bodily Integrity Disorder than being gay. People who have Bodily integrity Disorder have an overwhelming disorder to mutilate themselves in some form or another. In certain cases, some doctors have willfully blinded patients because that is their desire.

This is why it's more of a mental illness.
Reply With Quote
  #55583  
Old 07-26-2017, 11:15 AM
Joeygiggles Joeygiggles is offline

Arch-Druid
Joeygiggles's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,150
BattleTag: Joeygiggles#1104

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
So what did you mean by this?
Mean by what? You said I said something that I didn't and I was telling you that I did not say what you accused me of saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
I'll go ahead and give you my next question: How is being trans a mental illness but being gay is not?
Well really its not for me to decide. All I did was give a few reasons as to why people get disqualified.
My personal opinion, do think being trans ie pretending to be a Woman when your really a man or vice versa, wanting to inject hormones/steroids into yourself, mutilating yourself and given the high rates of suicide among those individuals is a mental disorder, yes.
Again Im not a doctor so Im not going to pretend I can say what is or isnt thats just my opinion
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #55584  
Old 07-26-2017, 11:20 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

Elune
Kakwakas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: US
Posts: 8,387

Darkmoon Card: Elementals

But homosexuality was considered a mental illness until 1974. They were also deemed unfit for military service until 2011. What's the difference?
__________________
Member #14
Reply With Quote
  #55585  
Old 07-26-2017, 11:29 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

Elune
Ruinshin's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 21,146

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
But homosexuality was considered a mental illness until 1974. They were also deemed unfit for military service until 2011. What's the difference?
Youre being really offensive to both trans and LBGT people right now.
__________________
Fucking Epic :X
Reply With Quote
  #55586  
Old 07-26-2017, 11:35 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

Elune
Kakwakas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: US
Posts: 8,387

Darkmoon Card: Elementals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Youre being really offensive to both trans and LBGT people right now.
You're really virtue signalling right now.
__________________
Member #14
Reply With Quote
  #55587  
Old 07-26-2017, 11:36 AM
Joeygiggles Joeygiggles is offline

Arch-Druid
Joeygiggles's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,150
BattleTag: Joeygiggles#1104

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
You're really virtue signalling right now.
Same thing you do all the time
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #55588  
Old 07-26-2017, 11:40 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

Elune
Kakwakas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: US
Posts: 8,387

Darkmoon Card: Elementals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeygiggles View Post
Same thing you do all the time
Oi, stay out of our banter.
Just answer the question.
__________________
Member #14
Reply With Quote
  #55589  
Old 07-26-2017, 11:45 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,527

Default

If folks are concerned about suicide then give all applicants for the military a psychological test for suicidal tendencies if they don't already have one, no reason to ban Trans soldiers, especially when the military has a personnel shortage

Returning to the fact that Ruin is dismissing out of hand hundreds of studies, papers, and interviews stating that racism and sexism are not only alive and well in America, but impact folks daily lives, ranging from job application and advancement to equality under the law [or lack thereof]

He sums all of this up as "debunked" [hardly a settled or universal opinion] and attributes it to economic and regional factors, saying race is only part of it historically

I disagree with this and it's one of the factors that makes me feel like I live in a different world, to me the evidence is insurmountable but to him it's "debunked"
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #55590  
Old 07-26-2017, 12:01 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Admin
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,969

WarCraft 3 B.net Eyeball

Reply With Quote
  #55591  
Old 07-26-2017, 12:15 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

Elune
Ruinshin's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 21,146

Default

Quote:
Returning to the fact that Ruin is dismissing out of hand hundreds of studies, papers, and interviews stating that racism and sexism are not only alive and well in America,
I said the wage gaps been debunked.

You want me to address studies like those mentioned in here I suppose?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usn...%3fcontext=amp

Simply put, Its all more or less ancedotal. Personal encounters, some facts that focus on skin color without taking in other potential factors, culturally related reasons instead of thnic ones, etc.

But even with all of that,

Quote:
Everything is an anecdote. Every individual piece of racism, sexism, etc.. It's all anecdotes. There is zero solid proof of any of those things existing in the US on a concerning level, yet most of us would agree they are problems.
Still not saying its not a problem.

Quote:
You're really virtue signalling right now.
Just because I'm sympathetic to the plight of the LGBTQIA community doesnt mean Im virtue signaling.
__________________
Fucking Epic :X
Reply With Quote
  #55592  
Old 07-26-2017, 12:22 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,166

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Like the one liner you gave me at first?
It doesn't affect their ability to do their job so its just plain ol discrimination
The part that makes me feel awkward is having different physical requirements for males and females. If males have a higher standard than females, then which standard actually embodies the "ability to do their job"? Are males being made to do too much, or are females scraping by with too little?

I feel that discrepancy is larger than the question of transgenders in the military. Figuring it out might work out some of the secondary issues that can crop up with transgenders... namely, does "gender" identity supercede one's actual sex, when different sex-based restrictions are applied? If a woman joins the army then transitions to a "male", but cannot meet the male qualifications, then is "he" allowed entry based on passing the female qualifications? It feels like all the answers have unfortunate implications.
Reply With Quote
  #55593  
Old 07-26-2017, 12:27 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

Elune
Kakwakas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: US
Posts: 8,387

Darkmoon Card: Elementals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Just because I'm sympathetic to the plight of the LGBTQIA community doesnt mean Im virtue signaling.
I assume you also want to ban gays from serving in the military "for their own good" because they also have a higher suicide rate than heterosexuals, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
The part that makes me feel awkward is having different physical requirements for males and females. If males have a higher standard than females, then which standard actually embodies the "ability to do their job"? Are males being made to do too much, or are females scraping by with too little?

I feel that discrepancy is larger than the question of transgenders in the military. Figuring it out might work out some of the secondary issues that can crop up with transgenders... namely, does "gender" identity supercede one's actual sex, when different sex-based restrictions are applied? If a woman joins the army then transitions to a "male", but cannot meet the male qualifications, then is "he" allowed entry based on passing the female qualifications? It feels like all the answers have unfortunate implications.
Depends on the job, really. The USAF as a whole even admits that the AF PT tests are to gauge your physical health and wellbeing rather than any physical ability to do your job. How they will do their PT tests is really a minor detail that I'd rather leave up to medical professionals as far as the USAF PFT goes. I can't speak for the aims and goals of other branches' tests.
__________________
Member #14

Last edited by Kakwakas; 07-26-2017 at 12:33 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #55594  
Old 07-26-2017, 12:37 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,166

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
I assume you also want to ban gays from serving in the military "for their own good" because they also have a higher suicide rate than heterosexuals, right?



Depends on the job, really. The USAF as a whole even admits that the AF PT tests are to gauge your physical health and wellbeing rather than any physical ability to do your job. How they will do their PT tests is really a minor detail that I'd rather leave up to medical professionals as far as the USAF PFT goes. I can't speak for the aims and goals of other branches' tests.
What if the medical professionals determine that Georgia can pass, but if she transitions to George then he fails? Based on the different male vs. female criteria.
Reply With Quote
  #55595  
Old 07-26-2017, 12:42 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

Elune
Kakwakas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: US
Posts: 8,387

Darkmoon Card: Elementals

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
What if the medical professionals determine that Georgia can pass, but if she transitions to George then he fails? Based on the different male vs. female criteria.
Again, I'd rather leave those minutiae to the doctors, assuming it's a PT test designed to test physical wellness and not job ability. Transitioning does affect things like muscle gain, bone density, etc, but I don't know how long it would take for it to be "fair" for a transitioning person to take the test of their identified gender. Maybe it's different for each one, I don't know.
__________________
Member #14
Reply With Quote
  #55596  
Old 07-26-2017, 01:05 PM
Joeygiggles Joeygiggles is offline

Arch-Druid
Joeygiggles's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,150
BattleTag: Joeygiggles#1104

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
Oi, stay out of our banter.
Just answer the question.
I already did
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #55597  
Old 07-26-2017, 01:16 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,166

Default

But anyway, I wish Secret Service would take that man-child's Twitter account away from him. I'm pretty sure there's some kind of house arrest safety measure they could invoke.
Reply With Quote
  #55598  
Old 07-26-2017, 01:19 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

Elune
Ruinshin's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 21,146

Default

Quote:
I assume you also want to ban gays from serving in the military "for their own good" because they also have a higher suicide rate than heterosexuals, right?
Actually, AFAIK, only gay men have a signifigantly higher suicide rate. While gay woman do have a higher one, its negligable. In part because women are allowed to move more freely between gender expressions than men are. This suggests a cultural issue, not a mental or health one.

Its fairly ironic that women have far more approval to act like men than men do like women, and this extend to sexual orientation.

However, and Ill be frank and say its possible Im wrong, as far as I know, there isnt anything like that with Trans. Actoss the board they have issues, and while some of those most certainly stem from the social stigma of their condition, by default there are some issues that need to be worked out ala body dysphoria et all.

With that said, C'mon, son!

Step up your trolling game.

Use White males as an example since suicide rates are skyrocketing amongst them.
__________________
Fucking Epic :X
Reply With Quote
  #55599  
Old 07-26-2017, 01:29 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

Elune
Kakwakas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: US
Posts: 8,387

Darkmoon Card: Elementals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Actually, AFAIK, only gay men have a signifigantly higher suicide rate. While gay woman do have a higher one, its negligable.
So you want to ban gays but not lesbians?
__________________
Member #14
Reply With Quote
  #55600  
Old 07-26-2017, 01:31 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,166

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
It's fairly ironic that women have far more approval to act like men than men do like women, and this extend to sexual orientation.
If I were a woman, I'd probably still want to wear pants and have access to a career. And maybe get in on that stronger bone density, mmm.

If testosterone really makes your bones denser, I wonder how long before scientists start tailoring things so that women can choose to have stronger bones without having to be called a man.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
politics, serious business, sylvanas for president

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.