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  #56576  
Old 09-05-2017, 03:53 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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As an addendum to this current debate, I'm fairly certain that the robotization of jobs posseses a much bigger threat to the poor endangered white people in the work force than illegal immigrants.
That's another reason we might as well start redistributing wealth more equally sooner rather than later. More and more manual labour (and who knows, maybe even intellectual labour soon enough) is being automated, and people are becoming more and more redundant in industries. Wage and socio-economical gaps will skyrocket once those jobs disappear, unless we've set in motion policies that'll address the issues and make for a smoother transition. Funnel tax money into re-educating the industry workers to be fit for new trades, set up social policies to make sure they don't fall between the cracks, drag out the 1% into the streets and have public beheadings, that sort of stuff.
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  #56577  
Old 09-05-2017, 04:07 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Given the surplus produced by many Western nations, I don't see how giving up part of our comforts to give some poor folks a decent living is a bad thing för anyone involved.

Are you above personal sacrifice, Peej?
You aren't giving up anything if you don't pay any taxes. If you didn't work or study hard at something useful you were never contributing to the wealth in the first place while benefiting from people that did even if all we had was infrastructure and a military. People just want there to be an easy path in life. They want to believe they are helpful or a good person just because of what they believe or how they vote. It is appealing because it is easy but it isn't very effective. It is a lot harder to influence positive change than it is to pat yourself on the back.

If we had better economics classes in public school more people would understand where wealth comes from or the impact of government spending on prices. It isn't from hippies holding up signs and the government isn't creating anything new in the second case. There is a reason there is a saying that it is better to teach a man to fish than to feed him fish everyday. Free riders are extremely self-centered because they want to invest in personal self-indulgence instead of investing in a skill that benefits other people.

People generally respect the police and the military because they spend time away from home and are expected to put their lives on the line for a greater cause. Like wise when someone goes to school for a useless degree they don't have to study nearly as hard as a discipline that would help contribute to our national wealth. Using coercion to make other people give you stuff is not generous. It is the easiest thing to do in the world. The solutions to our problems require a lot more difficult decisions and that is the crux of the issue here. If it was that easy everyone would already do it but instead the people that take the easy path just make it more difficult for everyone else.

So no. Don't give me this bullshit about how anyone that opposes your stance doesn't want to give people a decent living. It is nonsensical and requires nothing on your part to feel good about it. It is extremely lazy. It is a form of moral masturbation. Positive change requires more of a substantial argument and more difficult decisions than that. If you want to be good then donate your own money or time to charity. Illegal immigrants actually hurt more people than they help so there is nothing nice about that.
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  #56578  
Old 09-05-2017, 04:32 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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I always find it remarkable, PJ, how you can preach your capitalist religion while perched on a soapbox and living in an isolated bubble at the same time.
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  #56579  
Old 09-05-2017, 04:38 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I always find it remarkable, PJ, how you can preach your capitalist religion while perched on a soapbox and living in an isolated bubble at the same time.
This isn't an argument.
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  #56580  
Old 09-05-2017, 04:48 AM
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This isn't an argument.
Neither is your didactic, condescending moralizing.
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  #56581  
Old 09-05-2017, 05:19 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Neither is your didactic, condescending moralizing.
I rather talk about whether or not illegal immigration is a good thing or if we can prevent it. Accusing people of not caring about people just creates a red herring about something else that can't really be proven or disproven. It is a form of emotional masturbation. I am acting out of concern for people that obey the law. I don't live in a border state nor do I complete against illegal immigrants for labor.

I don't believe that volunteering sacrifice of other people is a signal of virtue. I think people that sacrifice their time to better their skills and make something are what push us forward. People can dispute that if they want but trying to get me to prove to people that disagree with me that I am not a bad person for disagreeing with them is an exercise in futility. It is more of a personal attack and a red herring.
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  #56582  
Old 09-05-2017, 05:58 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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I don't believe that volunteering sacrifice of other people is a signal of virtue. I think people that sacrifice their time to better their skills and make something are what push us forward. People can dispute that if they want but trying to get me to prove to people that disagree with me that I am not a bad person for disagreeing with them is an exercise in futility. It is more of a personal attack and a red herring.
I simply asked because you said "charity requires personal sacrifice" as if it were an argument against being charitable. At least that's how I interpreted it. And I don't want to make you look worse or better for disagreeing with me. I'm pretty sure you're a more decent human being than I am regardless, even if you are a capitalist.

If you people haven't caught on yet I rarely read more than a page or a few replies before I jump into discussions, guns blazing and cherry picking arguments to fit my narrative. I ain't even gonna touch on the illegal immigrants issue directly, besides pointing out that building walls and enforcing border control won't stop illegals from trying to get to you, as the underlying causes still remain. And if Mexican politicians prove themselves incapable of straightening out those issues, perhaps they're due for some non-negotiable freedom. Send your drones, Peejers.
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  #56583  
Old 09-05-2017, 07:16 AM
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I rather talk about whether or not illegal immigration is a good thing or if we can prevent it.
(1) We can probably both agree that this conversation probably cannot be reduced to simply "illegal immigration: good thing or bad thing," as if it were a 7th grade argumentative paper. This is a complicated matter due to how undocumented aliens are intricately tied to our national economy, work force, and communities.

(2) The terms of the conversation should probably be changed from "if we can prevent it" to "how we can curtail it."

(3) We should also step away from making fallacious arguments akin to "Republicans/Democrats just want to stop/keep illegal immigration, because X..."

(4) We should also avoid falsely ascribing malicious, sensationalist sentiments to illegal immgrants, such as them hating America and our laws or coming here to take our jobs or to commit white genocide.

Here, for example, is an article on illegal immigration by NPR. I will summarize some of the findings of that data.

* Unathorized immigrants make up 25 percent (11.1 million) of foreign born U.S. population. Of which, only ~14 percent came here within the last five years; almost two-thirds (~65 percent) have already been here for over a decade. (That arguably calls their "bad hombre" status into serious question.)
- Around 415K of unauthorized immigrants are the result of overstaid visas, and most of those are from Canada (~93K).

* Mexico accounts for over half of the unauthorized immigrants of the U.S., but that percentage is decreasing with the Border Patrol reporting record lows. Instead, the U.S. is seeing a surge of unauthorized immigration from Africa, Asia, and other portions of Central America. I'm skeptical that a wall along Mexico would address the rise of unauthorized immigrants from Africa or Asia.

* 61 percent of unauthorized immigrants live in 20 metropolitan areas; however, not in the city limits, but, rather, in the surrounding suburbs. This rubs both ways: 1) Trump threatening sanctuary cities, and 2) the ability of cities to offer sanctuary when most UI reside outside city limits.

* Only 4 percent of unauthorized immigrants in America work in the farming industry workforce, but they make up 25 percent of the farming industry's workforce. Most unauthorized immigrants work in service (32 percent) and construction (15 percent).

* One-third of unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. live with a child who is a U.S. citizen. I do think that we should consider the effect on American families that deportations would have.

These facts call the effectiveness of a border wall and mass deportations into question. I'm skeptical that either proposal would work, at least not without causing serious economic and social harm to the various communities of our nation. (Not to mention the cost-[in]effectiveness of a massive border wall.) I do believe that there needs to be immigration reform. However, I do not think that those efforts should start with looking at the comparatively minor diffusion along the southern border, but rather at the bulk who have been here for many years as effective contributors to our economy and communities. Mass deportations at that scale would be catastrophic and costly on many levels, pragamtically speaking. So perhaps the question up for discussion would be how we could address the issue of longtime unauthorized immigrants in America in a manner that is fair. I know that you, PJ, and a few others have raised the issue of equal treatment between those who become naturalized citizens through legal means, and I do think that is a valid concern. But perhaps there should be law or policy that allows for longterm unauthorized immigrant residents to have an alternative means of attaining citizenship without the fear of immediate repraisal of deportation. It's worth considering whether the fear of deportation is in itself an obstacle that contributes to the number of unauthorized immigrants. That is to say, you may want citizenship, but you can't initiate the process without risking deportation. But you are already integrated into the U.S. with a home, a family, and a job, so why risk it?

Last edited by Genesis; 09-05-2017 at 07:20 AM..
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  #56584  
Old 09-05-2017, 07:21 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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1. Like What?


2. Gonna say it again. This is a false dichotomy.
If they break the law by coming here and are still given all the rights of an American citizen save for voting (which many do anyhow) then they have more rights. They are above the law.

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As an addendum to this current debate, I'm fairly certain that the robotization of jobs posseses a much bigger threat to the poor endangered white people in the work force than illegal immigrants.
Just another reason we don't need them.
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  #56585  
Old 09-05-2017, 07:27 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Just another reason we don't need them.
It's another reason why it's ridiculous the extent that you worry about them as much as you do.
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  #56586  
Old 09-05-2017, 07:34 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I rather talk about whether or not illegal immigration is a good thing or if we can prevent it. Accusing people of not caring about people just creates a red herring about something else that can't really be proven or disproven. It is a form of emotional masturbation. I am acting out of concern for people that obey the law. I don't live in a border state nor do I complete against illegal immigrants for labor.

I don't believe that volunteering sacrifice of other people is a signal of virtue. I think people that sacrifice their time to better their skills and make something are what push us forward. People can dispute that if they want but trying to get me to prove to people that disagree with me that I am not a bad person for disagreeing with them is an exercise in futility. It is more of a personal attack and a red herring.
It really does not feel like you want to talk about that, it feels like all you want to talk about is how evil/lazy/greedy democrats are, and compare them to communists all the time.

So what if you don't live in a border state? I live in a border state. It doesn't mean much either way.
Trying to signal that you're unbiased because you don't have a personal stake in it doesn't amount to much, you're trying to get people to judge you based on status rather than your argument.

We're not volunteering other people's sacrifice by advocating for a more equitable distribution of the tax burden.

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If they break the law by coming here and are still given all the rights of an American citizen save for voting (which many do anyhow) then they have more rights. They are above the law.
1. That's because most of our laws apply regardless of whether a person is a citizen or not already, it's not a matter of them getting special treatment.

2. The notion that "many" vote is BULLSHIT, and as i've linked in the past, when one person (who was a legal permanent resident) voted when they weren't supposed to due to a misunderstanding, they got deported when they reported it anyway, which is stupidly counterproductive.
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  #56587  
Old 09-05-2017, 12:19 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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It's another reason why it's ridiculous the extent that you worry about them as much as you do.
It's even more ridiculous that you think they shouldn't be deported.

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
1. That's because most of our laws apply regardless of whether a person is a citizen or not already, it's not a matter of them getting special treatment.

2. The notion that "many" vote is BULLSHIT, and as i've linked in the past, when one person (who was a legal permanent resident) voted when they weren't supposed to due to a misunderstanding, they got deported when they reported it anyway, which is stupidly counterproductive.

By breaking the law (being here illegally) and not being deported they have more rights than the average citizen. When the average citizen breaks the law, they are punished.

Then you have real foreign interference in our politics and the media doesn't bat an eye.

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  #56588  
Old 09-05-2017, 01:44 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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I dont get the problem with the DACA being ended. It was executive over reach to bypass congress. If the legislative branch convenes to make laws along the lines of the DACA, great. Good for them.

The more executive branch overreach is rolled back the better
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  #56589  
Old 09-05-2017, 02:21 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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By breaking the law (being here illegally) and not being deported they have more rights than the average citizen. When the average citizen breaks the law, they are punished.

Then you have real foreign interference in our politics and the media doesn't bat an eye.
1. Not being deported is not the same as having more rights. By that logic someone who gets away with burglary or jaywalking has more rights than the average citizen.

2. Again, they don't have anywhere near as much political influence as you think, and that's not the same as foreign influence because despite your claim that they're an invasion, they're not being coordinated by Mexico or anything.

Russia hacking is what foreign intervention looks like, not illegal immigration.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/01/u...g.html?mcubz=3
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  #56590  
Old 09-05-2017, 02:37 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
(1) We can probably both agree that this conversation probably cannot be reduced to simply "illegal immigration: good thing or bad thing," as if it were a 7th grade argumentative paper. This is a complicated matter due to how undocumented aliens are intricately tied to our national economy, work force, and communities.

(2) The terms of the conversation should probably be changed from "if we can prevent it" to "how we can curtail it."

(3) We should also step away from making fallacious arguments akin to "Republicans/Democrats just want to stop/keep illegal immigration, because X..."

(4) We should also avoid falsely ascribing malicious, sensationalist sentiments to illegal immgrants, such as them hating America and our laws or coming here to take our jobs or to commit white genocide.

Here, for example, is an article on illegal immigration by NPR. I will summarize some of the findings of that data.

* Unathorized immigrants make up 25 percent (11.1 million) of foreign born U.S. population. Of which, only ~14 percent came here within the last five years; almost two-thirds (~65 percent) have already been here for over a decade. (That arguably calls their "bad hombre" status into serious question.)
- Around 415K of unauthorized immigrants are the result of overstaid visas, and most of those are from Canada (~93K).

* Mexico accounts for over half of the unauthorized immigrants of the U.S., but that percentage is decreasing with the Border Patrol reporting record lows. Instead, the U.S. is seeing a surge of unauthorized immigration from Africa, Asia, and other portions of Central America. I'm skeptical that a wall along Mexico would address the rise of unauthorized immigrants from Africa or Asia.

* 61 percent of unauthorized immigrants live in 20 metropolitan areas; however, not in the city limits, but, rather, in the surrounding suburbs. This rubs both ways: 1) Trump threatening sanctuary cities, and 2) the ability of cities to offer sanctuary when most UI reside outside city limits.

* Only 4 percent of unauthorized immigrants in America work in the farming industry workforce, but they make up 25 percent of the farming industry's workforce. Most unauthorized immigrants work in service (32 percent) and construction (15 percent).

* One-third of unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. live with a child who is a U.S. citizen. I do think that we should consider the effect on American families that deportations would have.

These facts call the effectiveness of a border wall and mass deportations into question. I'm skeptical that either proposal would work, at least not without causing serious economic and social harm to the various communities of our nation. (Not to mention the cost-[in]effectiveness of a massive border wall.) I do believe that there needs to be immigration reform. However, I do not think that those efforts should start with looking at the comparatively minor diffusion along the southern border, but rather at the bulk who have been here for many years as effective contributors to our economy and communities. Mass deportations at that scale would be catastrophic and costly on many levels, pragamtically speaking. So perhaps the question up for discussion would be how we could address the issue of longtime unauthorized immigrants in America in a manner that is fair. I know that you, PJ, and a few others have raised the issue of equal treatment between those who become naturalized citizens through legal means, and I do think that is a valid concern. But perhaps there should be law or policy that allows for longterm unauthorized immigrant residents to have an alternative means of attaining citizenship without the fear of immediate repraisal of deportation. It's worth considering whether the fear of deportation is in itself an obstacle that contributes to the number of unauthorized immigrants. That is to say, you may want citizenship, but you can't initiate the process without risking deportation. But you are already integrated into the U.S. with a home, a family, and a job, so why risk it?
The biggest argument for a wall would be to slow the flow of narcotics that fuel death and carnage across the border. I think it would entirely be too expensive to maintain. The US military already works extensively with Central America with drugs busts and I think that is more of what we should do. I rather fine businesses that hire illegal immigrants and go after states and municipals that offer them incentives to illegally immigrate.

I think there is a perverse incentive to entice illegal immigration. When the Census counts the population and does apportionment illegal immigrants count for the sake of house seats and electoral votes. Sanctuary cities do attract illegal immigration as states like Illinois, New Jersey, and New York have a disproportionate amount of illegal immigrants despite not being border states. California has the most but it combines these perverse incentives and being on the border. My state loses electoral influence because we didn't go and try to nullify federal law. Benefits shouldn't be available to non-citizens and sanctuary city leaders should be prosecuted for breaking the law. The whole being born in the US makes someone an American citizen should probably be looked at because it supports anchor babies.

Legal versus non-illegal creates a tiered labor system because those two classes aren't treated the same. Large businesses enjoy this because it gives them really cheap labor. A healthy labor pool would have a diverse amount of skills but when we over saturate a specific skill set it drives down wages for those people and those people are more likely to use government services. If you look at our neighbor to the north they filter immigration by economic need. The US should be giving priority to immigrants that will assimilate well and benefit our economy like people who start businesses. The more businesses that exist the more competition for labor there will be and wages will go up.

Illegal immigrants did break the law to be here. Neither Canada or even Mexico would allow me to do that in their countries. It isn't murderer level evil but it is pretty disrespectful and worthy of shame. In Europe I had met people that wanted to immigrate to the US but simply refused to overstay their visas like so many people do. Their unwillingness to break the law is what stops them from reaping the benefits that illegal immigrants do. To me that is pretty unfair. The US is the most sought out place for immigration in the world and we can not accept them all. The large influx of low skilled people would make the US not nearly as appealing to live in. There needs to be a better filter than willingness to break our laws.

I think illegals that are employed could be given some kind of work visa but I don't think it should give all the rights of a US citizen. Any sort of path to citizenship shouldn't be easier for people who reside here illegally than someone that has tried to go through proper channels. Our economy's dependence on illegal labor would have to evolve beyond that. They will have to pay American workers more or rely more on technology. A dependence on illegal immigration is unhealthy for an economy.
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  #56591  
Old 09-05-2017, 03:13 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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1. Not being deported is not the same as having more rights. By that logic someone who gets away with burglary or jaywalking has more rights than the average citizen.

2. Again, they don't have anywhere near as much political influence as you think, and that's not the same as foreign influence because despite your claim that they're an invasion, they're not being coordinated by Mexico or anything.

Russia hacking is what foreign intervention looks like, not illegal immigration.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/01/u...g.html?mcubz=3
Yes. That's how that works. Criminals do have more rights since they are violating the rights of others, that is why they are punished.

I'm talking about Vicente Fox, former president of Mexico trying to use his influence to shift American politics since he doesn't want his citizens back.
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  #56592  
Old 09-05-2017, 03:44 PM
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Yes. That's how that works. Criminals do have more rights since they are violating the rights of others, that is why they are punished.

I'm talking about Vicente Fox, former president of Mexico trying to use his influence to shift American politics since he doesn't want his citizens back.
You mean the KKK and white supremacists?
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Old 09-05-2017, 03:49 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Yes. That's how that works. Criminals do have more rights since they are violating the rights of others, that is why they are punished.
I wouldn't consider that having more rights, criminals are just breaking the law.


Y'know at this point I just don't think I'm going take a break for awhile because you and I operate on such radically different definitions and views of how the world works it'd take a month long seminar for us to come to any kind of understanding.
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Old 09-05-2017, 04:19 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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You mean the KKK and white supremacists?
Technically, they arent.

They arent stopping speech, they arent hunting people down, they arent stopping people, etc.

I know a lot of the left wing posters on this board hate 1A and consider the constitution outdated, but their hate is legally protected (as it morally and ethically should be)
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Old 09-05-2017, 04:23 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Technically, they arent.
No.
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  #56596  
Old 09-05-2017, 04:29 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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No.
Yes.
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Old 09-05-2017, 04:39 PM
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Then you have real foreign interference in our politics and the media doesn't bat an eye.
[tweet]
Could you make an honest argument? Like, ever?
How does it feel knowing that your beliefs are so horrible and indefensible that you have to resort to underhanded and dishonest comments to try to argue in favor of them? That must hurt.
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Old 09-05-2017, 04:42 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Technically, they arent.

They arent stopping speech, they arent hunting people down, they arent stopping people, etc.

I know a lot of the left wing posters on this board hate 1A and consider the constitution outdated, but their hate is legally protected (as it morally and ethically should be)
1. Wrong. People from these groups can and have attacked people on the street for being of the 'wrong' ethnicity.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/u...s.html?mcubz=0


2. The second is just a lazy potshot mingled with a strawman, I thought you wanted to raise the standards of discussion on this forum Ruin? Don't be a hypocrite.


A sidenote on labor day.

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I was at work today for Labour Day and on TV was Good Morning America. The theme was celebrating the American worker and their accomplishments. I’ll tell you how it went down.

Kelly put on her glasses, smile wide, and pulled out a piece of paper which she read from. The paper was from an article (which I have issues with, but I will leave alone for now) by ABC news. Kelly proceeded only to read the opening of it, which reads: ‘Americans work more than anyone in the industrialized world. More than the English, more than the French, way more than the Germans or Norwegians. Even, recently, more than the Japanese. And Americans take less vacation, work longer days, and retire later, too.’

And everyone cheered.

And they kept cheering when Kelly put her paper down and smiled at everyone. (not continuing with the rest of the article which suggests that this may in fact be a problem).

And I just couldn’t BELIEVE that anyone was cheering. America. AMERICA you work more than the French, who are entitled by law to have 5 weeks off a year for vacation and can not work more than 35 hours per week. You work more than Norway, who average 33 hours per week and 44,000 dollars a year. Germany, where AGAIN, we see a shorter work week and better pay! And all of these countries have health care and better pay and free/affordable education!

WHY ARE YOU CHEERING?

I have a different interpretation of this information: the American worker is the most taken advantage of worker in the industrialized world. It’s plain and simple. You work long hours and get horrible pay. You take multiple jobs and work and work and work just to get by. Unions are disappearing, jobs are always looking for part timers and all you are doing is giving up your time for less money, less vacation, less safety and stability and less education than anyone else on the list.

Celebrate Labour day. Celebrate the accomplishments of the common worker, but don’t let these people trick you into thinking you should celebrate the theft of your time and energy, or the fruits of your labour.

They are using you. Stop cheering.
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Kakwa, for gods sake. Stop it.
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Last edited by Mutterscrawl; 09-05-2017 at 04:44 PM..
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Old 09-05-2017, 04:58 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
You mean the KKK and white supremacists?
What are you trying to say?

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Y'know at this point I just don't think I'm going take a break for awhile because you and I operate on such radically different definitions and views of how the world works it'd take a month long seminar for us to come to any kind of understanding.
I will agree on that.
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Old 09-05-2017, 05:54 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
1. Wrong. People from these groups can and have attacked people on the street for being of the 'wrong' ethnicity.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/u...s.html?mcubz=0


2. The second is just a lazy potshot mingled with a strawman, I thought you wanted to raise the standards of discussion on this forum Ruin? Don't be a hypocrite.


A sidenote on labor day.


http://crimefighter-bae-b.tumblr.com...-and-on-tv-was

EDIT:

Kakwa, for gods sake. Stop it.
1.) Ahh, so by that logic anyone who says anything anti white is responsible for torturing that trump supporter live on facebook?

Or are individuals individuals?

Make up your minds.

2.) Why should I continue to want that? No effort, at all, has been done to fix anything.

As I told Nazja when they mentioned it.

Change comes from the top. Calling someone you disagree with a stormfronter isnt change.

So, business as usual for all parties.

Kak will continue threatening and encouraging violence just enough to creep under the rules, you and PJ will ask loaded questions and Ill continue to call out you commie bastards for wanting to kill America with your orwellian hate speech laws and tacit support of violence against wrongthink.

Well, not PJ. Shes a patriot, and wants to protect America.
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Last edited by Ruinshin; 09-05-2017 at 06:04 PM..
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