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Old 09-24-2017, 11:35 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I'm growing tired of all this blatant disrespect of the flag in the NFL and by self-declared "patriots." A fellow veteran did a decent little compilation of their hatred for the flag and, by extension, America itself:














On a related note, it is illegal for an elected official to call for someone to be fired:
18 U.S. Code § 227 - Wrongfully influencing a private entity’s employment decisions by a Member of Congress or an officer or employee of the legislative or executive branch:
a) Whoever, being a covered government person, with the intent to influence, solely on the basis of partisan political affiliation, an employment decision or employment practice of any private entity—
(1) takes or withholds, or offers or threatens to take or withhold, an official act, or
(2) influences, or offers or threatens to influence, the official act of another,
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than 15 years, or both, and may be disqualified from holding any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States.
(b) In this section, the term “covered government person” means—
(1) a Senator or Representative in, or a Delegate or Resident Commissioner to, the Congress;
(2) an employee of either House of Congress; or
(3) the President, Vice President, an employee of the United States Postal Service or the Postal Regulatory Commission, or any other executive branch employee (as such term is defined under section 2105 of title 5, United States Code).
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/227
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Old 09-24-2017, 12:19 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post

On a related note, it is illegal for an elected official to call for someone to be fired:
18 U.S. Code § 227 - Wrongfully influencing a private entity’s employment decisions by a Member of Congress or an officer or employee of the legislative or executive branch:
a) Whoever, being a covered government person, with the intent to influence, solely on the basis of partisan political affiliation, an employment decision or employment practice of any private entity—
(1) takes or withholds, or offers or threatens to take or withhold, an official act, or
(2) influences, or offers or threatens to influence, the official act of another,
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than 15 years, or both, and may be disqualified from holding any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States.
(b) In this section, the term “covered government person” means—
(1) a Senator or Representative in, or a Delegate or Resident Commissioner to, the Congress;
(2) an employee of either House of Congress; or
(3) the President, Vice President, an employee of the United States Postal Service or the Postal Regulatory Commission, or any other executive branch employee (as such term is defined under section 2105 of title 5, United States Code).
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/227
Where's all the rule of law folks on Trump's ass about this then?
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  #56853  
Old 09-24-2017, 12:26 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Where's all the rule of law folks on Trump's ass about this then?
Doing the same thing they do when anyone mentions emoluments.
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  #56854  
Old 09-24-2017, 12:35 PM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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Right now in the US, can you pick a brand of cereal without starting a partisan fight ?
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  #56855  
Old 09-24-2017, 02:13 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Where's all the rule of law folks on Trump's ass about this then?
Not what that law says.

Saying an elected official cant call for someone to be fired violates 1a.

The law itself says the elected official cant threaten to use or influence via official means peoples jobs. lSo.. Ill pass this or withhold this if X is fired, or "I know Y over at X. Fire that guy and ill talk to tgem about health regulations".

Quote:
they can be fired or not, my issue is that morally, I feel many people do not actually believe in the right to protest
Like the right for neonazis to protest statues being removed.
lLike the right for Nazis protesting the state of America as they see it.

I feel like the only form of protest you accept is that of causes you agree with. My belief that this kneeling thing is stupid as fuck persists, but I dont think he should be fired for it.

However, and this is whats being ignored...

He is on the job. He is actively being paid to play. He is protesting at work. THATS the issue, as I see it. People are paying him to protest.
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  #56856  
Old 09-24-2017, 02:30 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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My issue isn't so much the legal grounds for whether they can be fired or not, my issue is that morally, I feel many people do not actually believe in the right to protest.....
That's because they don't. I've used the term "authoritarian normalcy" to kind of describe this tendency. People want to go about their lives, many are apolitical, when something such as protestors or revolutionaries or w/e get in the way of their daily life they are annoyed by it. Because of this they will often welcome a dictator should revolutionaries threaten the security of their lives.

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5. I think Trump is a dreadful human being, and I think him saying these people should be fired sets a bad precedent for our moral character as a nation regardless of whether it's legal or illegal to fire them or suggest as much.

I think he's appealing to an ugly, bigoted undercurrent in our society, that thinks they ought to just be "grateful" they were successful, (ignoring their own hard work in getting where they are), and shut up about issues affecting them and their communities because many people don't want to acknowledge we still have problems with inequality, they want it to be a dying specter or overexaggeration by the 'fake news' and 'evil liberals', when that's not the case.
You have to convince the public that they should care about your issue. People being the self interested creatures that they are they're not likely to care about things that don't involve them.

Because of this it's often easier to be the change that you want to see in the world instead of trying to convince people. You can still try but the likelihood of succeeding is small.

Worse still, if you act as an inconvenience in their life then not only are they likely to not be interested but they may just be opposed to you on those grounds.
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Old 09-24-2017, 04:17 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Not what that law says.

Saying an elected official cant call for someone to be fired violates 1a.

The law itself says the elected official cant threaten to use or influence via official means peoples jobs. lSo.. Ill pass this or withhold this if X is fired, or "I know Y over at X. Fire that guy and ill talk to tgem about health regulations".



Like the right for neonazis to protest statues being removed.
lLike the right for Nazis protesting the state of America as they see it.

I feel like the only form of protest you accept is that of causes you agree with. My belief that this kneeling thing is stupid as fuck persists, but I dont think he should be fired for it.

However, and this is whats being ignored...

He is on the job. He is actively being paid to play. He is protesting at work. THATS the issue, as I see it. People are paying him to protest.
1. Thank you for clarifying.

2. Protesting the statue being removed is one thing, I disagree with it, but that's separate from marching around saying they want to commit genocide and are just waiting till it's legal. Moreover, the point has been made several times that the neo-nazis got an easier time from police than protesters in other areas tend to.

3. He's not being paid to protest. Being paid to protest would be someone handing me 100 dollars to wave a sign outside of city hall or the capitol building.


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That's because they don't. I've used the term "authoritarian normalcy" to kind of describe this tendency. People want to go about their lives, many are apolitical, when something such as protestors or revolutionaries or w/e get in the way of their daily life they are annoyed by it. Because of this they will often welcome a dictator should revolutionaries threaten the security of their lives.


You have to convince the public that they should care about your issue. People being the self interested creatures that they are they're not likely to care about things that don't involve them.

Because of this it's often easier to be the change that you want to see in the world instead of trying to convince people. You can still try but the likelihood of succeeding is small.

Worse still, if you act as an inconvenience in their life then not only are they likely to not be interested but they may just be opposed to you on those grounds.
1. Which sucks.

2. Which is difficult to do in ways that aren't easy to ignore.

3. The optimist in me wants to say you're right about being the change adding up over time. The cynic in me wants to say "Being the change" is a lie told by corporations to keep people individually recycling one or two bottles of plastic while they dump landfills into the ocean, and that political action is best accomplished through non-profit PACs.

4. I think there's a balance to be struck between being an inconvenience on occasion to get people's attention and less obstructive protest.
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Old 09-24-2017, 05:36 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Ok, lets put it this way.

An NFL player does a nazi salute at the crowd. He says its in protest of the left calling everyone a nazi. Should he be fired?
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Old 09-24-2017, 08:04 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Ok, lets put it this way.

An NFL player does a nazi salute at the crowd. He says its in protest of the left calling everyone a nazi. Should he be fired?
For that reasoning? No, though I wouldn't be surprised if he was regardless.

If he were an actual Nazi? Yes.
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Old 09-25-2017, 01:29 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Saying an elected official cant call for someone to be fired violates 1a.
Do you believe insider trading laws violate the First Amendment? If a CEO wants to tell his friends that the company he runs is about to go down and they should sell all their stock, that's just his freedom of speech, right?
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  #56861  
Old 09-25-2017, 05:32 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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It's kinda telling how fucked up the political situation has gotten in this country when the most talked about thing is whether some rich dudes are standing for a national anthem and not about the 2 states and US Territory that just got hit by Hurricanes
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Old 09-25-2017, 05:43 PM
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It's kinda telling how fucked up the political situation has gotten in this country when the most talked about thing is whether some rich dudes are standing for a national anthem and not about the 2 states and US Territory that just got hit by Hurricanes
We even have a popular horror series that's using its elements as commentary about how one side is so irrationally afraid of the other. What a time to be alive.
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  #56863  
Old 09-25-2017, 06:31 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Do you believe insider trading laws violate the First Amendment? If a CEO wants to tell his friends that the company he runs is about to go down and they should sell all their stock, that's just his freedom of speech, right?
No.

The information, in that case, belongs to the company, not the CEO. It becomes embezzlement.

Point in fact, insiders CAN tip people off. In US vs Newman, it was decided that unless an improper purpose can be found, breaking fiduciary duty does not constitute criminal liability.
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  #56864  
Old 09-25-2017, 07:09 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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The information, in that case, belongs to the company, not the CEO. It becomes embezzlement.
So you're willing to limit the CEO's freedom of speech to protect a company?
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Old 09-25-2017, 07:42 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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So you're willing to limit the CEO's freedom of speech to protect a company?
Not at all.

They on the other hand are by signing an NDA, which doesnt carry criminal liability. With that being said, there are actual 1a arguments over insider trading, but since the information is considdered a company asset, the arguments are moot, as embezzlement is a crime.

All of course is moot to the law you mentioned
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Old 09-25-2017, 09:41 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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It's kinda telling how fucked up the political situation has gotten in this country when the most talked about thing is whether some rich dudes are standing for a national anthem and not about the 2 states and US Territory that just got hit by Hurricanes
I'd argue the importance of free speech is always worth discussing but the aftermath has been kinda sidelined.

A lot of the less wealthy areas will probably take years to recover, if ever. A lot of them missed out on the last few months of the year that they would've used for tourism income, so they're especially crippled

Puerto Rico is... struggling to rebuild infrastructure, it needs some serious aid
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  #56867  
Old 09-25-2017, 11:35 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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I'd argue the importance of free speech is always worth discussing but the aftermath has been kinda sidelined.

A lot of the less wealthy areas will probably take years to recover, if ever. A lot of them missed out on the last few months of the year that they would've used for tourism income, so they're especially crippled

Puerto Rico is... struggling to rebuild infrastructure, it needs some serious aid
There is no 'free speech' thing worth discussing as free speech only applies to the government Anyone that says 'I have freedom of speech!' when they face consequences due to what they said is an idiot when referring to companies, forums, or any other non government body. It also tends to make people look like hypocrites when they pick and choose what constitutes 'free speech' as it typically means 'I dislike when people on my side face consequences'.

Though I'm sure Trump loves this shit becoming a big thing rather than anyone focusing on how well we respond to aiding Puerto Rico.

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Old 09-26-2017, 03:09 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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It's kinda telling how fucked up the political situation has gotten in this country when the most talked about thing is whether some rich dudes are standing for a national anthem and not about the 2 states and US Territory that just got hit by Hurricanes
Before this it was Confederate statues. Before that, bathrooms.
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Old 09-26-2017, 03:37 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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There is no 'free speech' thing worth discussing as free speech only applies to the government Anyone that says 'I have freedom of speech!' when they face consequences due to what they said is an idiot when referring to companies, forums, or any other non government body.
Ehh.
Again, no.

Freedom of Speech is an ideal. That ideal is enshrined and protected from the Government, not because the Government is the only threat, but because its the one that can pass laws against speech.

The "Free Speech doesnt mean free of consequences" crowd is attempting to subvert that core ideal, just like Title X proponents try and subvert due proccess.

The reason for this is perfectly represented by the thing I linked about Spain in the international politics thread. The creation of an alternate system of punishment independent of the governing body.

By taking control of certain idealogical points. this creates funnels where certain views or talking points never make it past certain spots, which can then be passed off as taboo, and then silenced by non-government entities.

Free Speech needs to be treated as an ideal, or else it doesnt have the legal weight behind it to protect it when it is threatened. From there, it becomes more than just a threat to traditional speech.

Using a quick and dirty example, look at Austrailia banning South Park or New Zealand banning GTA. Look at the original comics code. Look at the church killing people over blasphemy. We dont do that anymore in the western world, not because we are better or more evolvved than the places that do.

We dont do it because we've enshrined those freedoms to protect radical and unpopular opinions, even if its horrible.

This doesnt mean somebody should get away with yelling slurs in the middle of the street withoit repocussions. Nor should private companies be forced to employ people because off speech or actions.

Alternatively, the hunting down and targeting of opposing opinions, many of which arent bad, needs to stop, amd that comes from returning the enshrined ideal of free speech back to its proper place.

As Ive said before, Americas historicly has a radically different version of free speech than the rest of the world. Its that way to stop political bloodshed.

That ideal needs to be protected every bit as much as "All men are created equally". Because when that ideal isnt held, the law has a habbit of turning a blind eye.

As for our responce to the hurricanes, we've massive aide in puerto rico.

10,000 federal aide workers, FEMA, cargo flights are bringing in food and water. We've supplied diesel generators to hospitals and barges are expected to arrive soon.
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Old 09-26-2017, 04:14 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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Before this it was Confederate statues. Before that, bathrooms.
Have you noticed that the Confederate statues all represented white males ?
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Old 09-26-2017, 09:09 AM
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Ehh.
Again, no.

Freedom of Speech is an ideal. That ideal is enshrined and protected from the Government, not because the Government is the only threat, but because its the one that can pass laws against speech.

The "Free Speech doesnt mean free of consequences" crowd is attempting to subvert that core ideal, just like Title X proponents try and subvert due proccess.

The reason for this is perfectly represented by the thing I linked about Spain in the international politics thread. The creation of an alternate system of punishment independent of the governing body.

By taking control of certain idealogical points. this creates funnels where certain views or talking points never make it past certain spots, which can then be passed off as taboo, and then silenced by non-government entities.

Free Speech needs to be treated as an ideal, or else it doesnt have the legal weight behind it to protect it when it is threatened. From there, it becomes more than just a threat to traditional speech.

Using a quick and dirty example, look at Austrailia banning South Park or New Zealand banning GTA. Look at the original comics code. Look at the church killing people over blasphemy. We dont do that anymore in the western world, not because we are better or more evolvved than the places that do.

We dont do it because we've enshrined those freedoms to protect radical and unpopular opinions, even if its horrible.

This doesnt mean somebody should get away with yelling slurs in the middle of the street withoit repocussions. Nor should private companies be forced to employ people because off speech or actions.

Alternatively, the hunting down and targeting of opposing opinions, many of which arent bad, needs to stop, amd that comes from returning the enshrined ideal of free speech back to its proper place.

As Ive said before, Americas historicly has a radically different version of free speech than the rest of the world. Its that way to stop political bloodshed.

That ideal needs to be protected every bit as much as "All men are created equally". Because when that ideal isnt held, the law has a habbit of turning a blind eye.

As for our responce to the hurricanes, we've massive aide in puerto rico.

10,000 federal aide workers, FEMA, cargo flights are bringing in food and water. We've supplied diesel generators to hospitals and barges are expected to arrive soon.
If we want to focus on changing anything to protect workers we should focus on getting rid of 'at will employment' laws that many states have.
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  #56872  
Old 09-26-2017, 10:01 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Though I'm sure Trump loves this shit becoming a big thing rather than anyone focusing on how well we respond to aiding Puerto Rico.
I'm not sure if he or most of the people upset about this NFL thing know that Puerto Ricans are American citizens.
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Old 09-26-2017, 10:42 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Have you noticed that the Confederate statues all represented white males ?
Jeb Stuart wasn't transgender?
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Old 09-26-2017, 01:07 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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If we want to focus on changing anything to protect workers we should focus on getting rid of 'at will employment' laws that many states have.
Im not actually a fan of at will employment.
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Old 09-26-2017, 02:48 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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If we want to focus on changing anything to protect workers we should focus on getting rid of 'at will employment' laws that many states have.
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Im not actually a fan of at will employment.
I had to look it up, since it's not a term I think I've ever encountered in Canadian politics, but I must say that sounds like a pretty skeezy practice that'd lend itself very easily to abusing and/or exploiting workers. Which is interesting, because the principles of freedom of association are still something I believe in (in theory), so I'm not entirely sure where this gut reaction of mine comes from.

I suppose if huge swaths of the labour force weren't perched precariously on the edge of a poverty spiral, the concept of being able to quit/fire without notice or cause might make more sense, but it sure seems to me that workers are at a massive disadvantage when it comes to making a deal with a prospective employer, especially if they're living paycheck to paycheck.
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