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  #13051  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:22 AM
Warlock Warlock is offline

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Because the PPACA is the fucking law. It was passed in 2010 by Congress and the Senate, signed into law by the President of the United States, and found constitutional by the Supreme Court. Barack Obama was re-elected to a second term in 2012 in an election where the PPACA was considered the main issue. The people have spoken, the judiciary has spoken. People are already signing up and getting health insurance where they had none before.
Again, I point out that Obama himself has already changed the "ZOMG IT'S A LAW STOP TRYING TO MESS WITH IT!!!!111111" several times, including doing the same exact thing the House wants to do, but for businesses.
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  #13052  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:24 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Obamacare funding was never an issue. So you should stop bringing that up. The two things the House tried recently were 1) Complete removal of the law alltogether and then 2) delaying the individual mandate.
Oooohhh... so you're saying that the Republicans want to defund Obamacare because they don't like it? Well crap, that changes things.


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All they House needs to go to get things funded again is to pass the clean bill that they have that Boehner has but won't let the House vote on and then the government can get funded again. Doing it piecemeal gains no one anything.
No, take a moment and please explain how doing it piecemeal gains no one anything.

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And again, nothing your saying is things I don't know. None of it is changing that the Republicans are being unreasonable and the Democrats are.
The bias reeks through your pores. Everytime the Democrats vote down a suggestion or close a service that doesn't need closing, all of that is reasonable and fine to you. But no, the Republicans are children.
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  #13053  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:24 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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And the government shutdown is fucking legal as well. I think that's what you don't understand.
Whether or not the shutdown is legal or not doesn't fucking matter, because it's causing real damage and hurting real people for no reason aside from all efforts by the Republican party to change the law have failed since they haven't won elections.

Do you seriously have any clue at all how the US government functions and how laws are passed? Because it sounds to me like you're viewing this exclusively in a "is it legal? Then it's good!" viewpoint.

The shutdown is legal because it's supposed to be "a bad thing that will hurt people and hence put pressure on the government to resolve the deadlock." The problem here is that the deadlock in the government is

A) Being orchestrated by a minority of the government, and

B) Is caused by that minority literally refusing to do its job until a law that was legitimately passed and is now in effect is repealed.

If the Democrats cave or "negotiate" as you call it, it legitimizes that tactic forever. The end of every fiscal year will mark the beginning of another government shutdown while the minority party refuses to pass a budget until they get what they want. Nothing will be safe, including legitimately passed constitutional laws. The government will never be legitimate again because the process that you're being apologetic for has become the rule. Elections would mean nothing, democracy would mean nothing, and everything would collapse.

You haven't thought your position through at all.
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  #13054  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:26 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Whether or not the shutdown is legal or not doesn't fucking matter
And this is where you gave up the argument. This is where "the government can't do that" turns into "my morals are better than their morals".
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  #13055  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:27 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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And this is where you gave up the argument. This is where "the government can't do that" turns into "my morals are better than their morals".
You're literally being retarded and didn't read a single thing that I posted aside from the first sentence.
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  #13056  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
And the government shutdown is fucking legal as well. I think that's what you don't understand.



Precedent? There is no new precedent being set here. It's been done before.
I understand that. I just think it's very un-democractic in spirit. The point still stands that Obamacare was passed into law and approved by all three branches of government, before Obama (ya know - the guy Obamacare is named after?) was reelected. And that happened nearly a year ago.
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  #13057  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:28 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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You're literally being retarded and didn't read a single thing that I posted aside from the first sentence.
Sure I did. You also pretended like this government shutdown set a "precedent", like it's something that's been done for the very first time.

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I understand that. I just think it's very un-democractic in spirit. The point still stands that Obamacare was passed into law and approved by all three branches of government, before Obama (ya know - the guy Obamacare is named after?) was reelected. And that happened nearly a year ago.
Yeah. And after Obama was reelected, that same election changed the nature of the Legislative Branch. The nature of the Legislative Branch changed during that election because Obama lost support for the Democrats, even though he won the election. So it's very democratic.... or at least federal republicy.

The Legislative Branch has powers other than creating laws. Don't pretend that these parts of government don't exist.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 10-02-2013 at 11:31 AM..
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  #13058  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:29 AM
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Fojar don't be calling people retarded.
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  #13059  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:31 AM
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Oooohhh... so you're saying that the Republicans want to defund Obamacare because they don't like it? Well crap, that changes things.
I'm saying that defunding isn't the issue at all, since it's funded even without the government currently having a budget (ie, this little show that the Republican run accomplished squat so far).

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No, take a moment and please explain how doing it piecemeal gains no one anything.
Because your still hurtling towards a cliff and causing economic damage to your economy for no good reason just by doing it piecemeal. But hey, if you want to continue to pretend that it's a good idea, go ahead.
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  #13060  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:32 AM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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Yeah. And after Obama was reelected, that same election changed the nature of the Legislative Branch. The Legislative Branch has powers other than creating laws.

Don't pretend that these parts of government don't exist.
All I'm saying is it's hard to present a legit position against "passed into law with approval from all three branches of government" that isn't going to look petulant. Can't you read the signs? It's not going to happen.
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  #13061  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:33 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I'm saying that defunding isn't the issue at all, since it's funded even without the government currently having a budget (ie, this little show that the Republican run accomplished squat so far).
Oh. So what you're saying is that if the president wanted to, he could have taken funds from his Obamacare and used them on other parts of the government that will receive damage from the shutdown?

He won't. He really really wants his Obamacare, even if it drags everything else down. Just like the Republicans really really want to kill it, even if the same thing happens.

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Because your still hurtling towards a cliff and causing economic damage to your economy for no good reason just by doing it piecemeal.
Except it won't cause the economic damage if the piecemeal agreements were taken as they were agreed upon. Do you really think the Republicans would reject opening government back up if the funding of Obamacare was struck down?


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Originally Posted by Saranus View Post
All I'm saying is it's hard to present a legit position against "passed into law with approval from all three branches of government" that isn't going to look petulant. Can't you read the signs? It's not going to happen.
Again, the Legislative Branch is a branch of government, and it can do things other than creating laws.
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  #13062  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:34 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Sure I did. You also pretended like this government shutdown set a "precedent", like it's something that's been done for the very first time.
A government shutdown occurring because a minority party refuses to pass basic legislation that benefits everyone including themselves and their constituents in a hail mary to change a law that they don't have the power to change actually hasn't happened before.

And if the Democrats cave, it will happen every single year. You're smiling and shrugging your shoulders over a minority of the government (read: A party that has not been elected to wield the power to unilaterally kill or alter laws) attempting to do it anyway.
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  #13063  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:36 AM
Warlock Warlock is offline

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I understand that. I just think it's very un-democractic in spirit. The point still stands that Obamacare was passed into law and approved by all three branches of government, before Obama (ya know - the guy Obamacare is named after?) was reelected. And that happened nearly a year ago.
House Republicans were re-elected too

Honestly I think people read too much into the 2012 election vis-a-vis "this validates Obamacare" too. Very little of that election focused on Obamacare. Most of it was economy, foreign policy, and "war on women" type bullshit. I personally think ultimately people just didn't like Romney enough to vote for him - that and his campaign team (the entire time, even when he was ahead after that first debate) was shit and Obama out-campaigned him. He probably should have won but they gave him terrible advice, didn't answer Obama's bazillion attack ads, and had shit grass-roots.
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  #13064  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:36 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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A government shutdown occurring because a minority party refuses to pass basic legislation that benefits everyone including themselves and their constituents
Right here is your conclusion that Obamacare "benefits everyone including themselves and their constituents". The Republicans don't see things this way. So, they are applying the legal pressure they have at their disposal. Pressure they recently gained through the last democratic elections.
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  #13065  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:37 AM
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Oh. So what you're saying is that if the president wanted to, he could have taken funds from his Obamacare and used them on other parts of the government that will receive damage from the shutdown?
You're purposely being dense here. Budgets don't work that way. Generally it's hard to move money earmarked for one thing to another thing.

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Except it won't cause the economic damage if the piecemeal agreements were taken as they were agreed upon. Do you really think the Republicans would reject opening government back up if the funding of Obamacare was struck down?
Yeah...no. The entire thing needs to be running or you get economic damage. Nevermind that you still need to raise the debt ceiling.

The Republican can fund the government if they want to now, they probably even have the votes in the House to do it between the Republicans who think this is stupid and the Democrats in the House, but they are not being allowed to vote on it.
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  #13066  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:38 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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The Republican can fund the government if they want to now, they probably even have the votes in the House to do it between the Republicans who think this is stupid and the Democrats in the House, but they are not being allowed to vote on it.
And likewise, the Democrats can fund the government if they give up trying to fund Obamacare.

Do you see the impasse?
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  #13067  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:39 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Right here is your conclusion that Obamacare "benefits everyone including themselves and their constituents". The Republicans don't see things this way. So, they are applying the legal pressure they have at their disposal. Pressure they recently gained through the last democratic elections.
No, my conclusion is that PASSING A BUDGET TO FUND THE GOVERNMENT benefits everyone including themselves and their constituents.

Their opinions on Obamacare are irrelevant because it was passed into law legitimately and is now implemented. They can bitch and moan about it all they want but they ran in 2012 on a platform of "we will repeal Obamacare" and lost badly. They have not been elected into a position where they can change or repeal the law, ergo they don't get to fucking do that.
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  #13068  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:40 AM
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And likewise, the Democrats can fund the government if they give up trying to fund Obamacare.

Do you see the impasse?
As a reasonable impasse on the (minority) Republican side? Not remotely. Nothing about Obamacare is worth shutting down the government over and defaulting on your loans (seriously, this last part should scare you more than anything else and make you want the minority Republicans to stop pouting).

Because seriously, the money was already put a side for this with or without the budget going forward, and nothing that the Republicans did actually attacked the funding of Obamacare.
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  #13069  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:41 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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No, my conclusion is that PASSING A BUDGET TO FUND THE GOVERNMENT benefits everyone including themselves and their constituents.
You do realize that refusing to fund a budget is one of the earliest powers that parliaments had over their heads of state, yeah?


~ ~ ~ ~ ~

You know what? I'm done. I don't even like the government shutdown or think it's a good idea; I was trying to argue that the Democrats do the same kinds of stupid-stubborn things all the time and that it's not some sort of precedent-shattering travesty. Everything is leverage and political power, whatever it takes to reach your pet goals. But now I've been sitting here defending the Republicans for several posts, so I'm going to take a shower now.

(Probably a bath.)
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  #13070  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:43 AM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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Do you see the impasse?
No, I see a last-ditch, desperate attempt to stop healthcare at any cost. And it won't even accomplish that, so at best it's just desperate attention grabbing.
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  #13071  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:44 AM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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You do realize that refusing to fund a budget is one of the earliest powers that parliaments had over their heads of state, yeah?


~ ~ ~ ~ ~

You know what? I'm done. I don't even like the government shutdown or think it's a good idea; I was trying to argue that the Democrats do the same kinds of stupid-stubborn things all the time. All about leverage and political power, whatever it takes to reach your pet goals. But now I've been sitting here defending the Republicans for several posts, so I'm going to take a shower now.

(Probably a bath.)
If the situation was reversed, and the Democrats were using these kinds of tactics to get what they wanted, I'd be saying the same thing about them. If they did it in the past, it wasn't right then. If they decide to do it in the future, it's not right either.
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  #13072  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:45 AM
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House Republicans were re-elected too

Honestly I think people read too much into the 2012 election vis-a-vis "this validates Obamacare" too. Very little of that election focused on Obamacare. Most of it was economy, foreign policy, and "war on women" type bullshit. I personally think ultimately people just didn't like Romney enough to vote for him - that and his campaign team (the entire time, even when he was ahead after that first debate) was shit and Obama out-campaigned him. He probably should have won but they gave him terrible advice, didn't answer Obama's bazillion attack ads, and had shit grass-roots.
It's simpler than all that - the GOP should have never nominated the asshole who created Romneycare when they were trying to beat the asshole that created Obamacare.
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  #13073  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:47 AM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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It's simpler than all that - the GOP should have never nominated the asshole who created Romneycare when they were trying to beat the asshole that created Obamacare.
Still bitter over Santorum, eh?
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  #13074  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:47 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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  #13075  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:48 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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You do realize that refusing to fund a budget is one of the earliest powers that parliaments had over their heads of state, yeah?
You do realize that the US is a Republic, right?

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You know what? I'm done. I don't even like the government shutdown or think it's a good idea; I was trying to argue that the Democrats do the same kinds of stupid-stubborn things all the time and that it's not some sort of precedent-shattering travesty. Everything is leverage and political power, whatever it takes to reach your pet goals.
Great. This time ain't one of 'em.
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