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Old 04-12-2014, 09:25 PM
Shroombie Shroombie is offline

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Default As an Troll player why would I want to fight the Zandalari?

This has been something that has been bugging me for a while and was prevalent throughout the middle of MoP.

Why exactly would an Troll character wish to go against his people? They have never given us a real reason other than 'lolgoodguys'. Take ToT for example. A Troll player has -no- real reason to go against Zul. Why would you go against the Prophet who wishes to secure your people prosperity and safety through any means necessary? I don't see how a Troll could put other races above his own people. That right there is disgusting, honestly. Abandon your people to aid a selfish Pandaren and spineless Elf, simply to etch out another meager existence on a tiny island with no visions of greatness or bettering your race. Due to this whole Horde fiasco, I am now an Night Elf player despite my hate for the degenerate mongrels.

Now this brings me onto my next point. Why the hell would an Troll player wish to fight the Zandalari? Any Troll would wish to fight alongside the gear-vendors of the past, and conquer his enemies. Why would I want to kill Jin'rokh, Maywiki, Falthir, Al'tabim, ect. They give -no- reason for me to do that. Forced to kill the loot turn-ins instead of working alongside them. Kill them because some dirty elf told you too. Great reasoning right there.

Basically, Trolls have no motivation to fight enemies of way too many patches. Seriously. It's getting real old. Wish I could join the Zandalari.

And they have dinosaurs.
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Old 04-12-2014, 09:36 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Because suddenly the zandalari are jerks who will eat you.

Despite Blizz saying "They were like this all along!" this is really stupid, even if it didn't explicitly contradict most of the existing lore it butchered their feel.
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Old 04-12-2014, 09:39 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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The Horde is no better than the Zandalari.
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Old 04-12-2014, 09:59 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Despite Blizz saying "They were like this all along!" this is really stupid, even if it didn't explicitly contradict most of the existing lore it butchered their feel.
Many of it did explicitly contradict existing lore. Such as the Zandalari being cannibals and having an ancient evil empire contradict the Troll Compendium's words that they were never cannibals and are un interested in conquest.

Watch, we'll raid the Darkspear eventually!
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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Old 04-12-2014, 10:17 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Many of it did explicitly contradict existing lore. Such as the Zandalari being cannibals and having an ancient evil empire contradict the Troll Compendium's words that they were never cannibals and are un interested in conquest.

Watch, we'll raid the Darkspear eventually!
The Zandalari were uninterested in conquest. It never said that they had always been so, but at some point - namely, the height of their civilization - they became such, leading to the departure of those trolls who would become the Amani and Gurubashi, and who very much hungered for conquest.

And even then, those who remained Zandalari also remained uninterested in said conquest.

Then the Cataclysm happened. And so only recently have they decided that pursuing conquest is a necessity if they're to survive.

SotH made it apparent that what "Zandalari" even meant changed over time. Originally all trolls were Zandalari, and they had a mighty empire. Then the ruling caste that led them became disinterested in conquest and war, so other castes within their empire who were still keen on those things eventually left.

Leaving those who still called themselves Zandalari, and who refrained from the conquest that so enthralled their Amani and Gurubashi kin - who were no longer considered Zandalari.

The cannibalism angle comes across as a pretty recent thing, given that Khal'ak eats the flesh of "lesser" troll-types - with whom Zandalari contact would have been far more limited in the past due to them not leaving their island very often. Even now, there's no indication that any Zandalari are eating the flesh of other Zandalari.
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Old 04-13-2014, 02:30 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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Because the Zandalari didn't really give a shit about the Darkspears from which the Troll player came from. You don't see the emissary offering them anything during the trailer.
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Old 04-13-2014, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Ujimasa Hojo View Post
Because the Zandalari didn't really give a shit about the Darkspears from which the Troll player came from. You don't see the emissary offering them anything during the trailer.
Just you wait. Vol'jin is going to have a super special awesome heart to heart with the Troll King right before his epic and personal confrontation with Zul!
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Old 04-13-2014, 03:22 AM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ujimasa Hojo View Post
Because the Zandalari didn't really give a shit about the Darkspears from which the Troll player came from. You don't see the emissary offering them anything during the trailer.
Umm, they did, as the Gurubashi.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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Old 04-13-2014, 05:16 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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because trolls are dirty backstabbers in every regard.
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Old 04-13-2014, 05:46 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Umm, they did, as the Gurubashi.
The Gurubashi Trolls expelled the Darkspear from Stranglethorn.
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Old 04-13-2014, 08:52 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I'm annoyed the Sundering couldn't hurt Zandalar but the cataclysm did
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Old 04-13-2014, 08:56 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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We just spent 2 patches where we were fighting and killing orcs, not orcs that were separate from the horde, but the horde itself we all know, and we killed not just nameless grunts, but characters, good and bad.
I think as a troll you can suck it up a bit more, since orc fans have had to suck it up in whats just happened.
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Old 04-13-2014, 09:07 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
We just spent 2 patches where we were fighting and killing orcs, not orcs that were separate from the horde, but the horde itself we all know, and we killed not just nameless grunts, but characters, good and bad.
I think as a troll you can suck it up a bit more, since orc fans have had to suck it up in whats just happened.
Dude what is wrong with you? Someone else enjoying trolls does literally nothing to you or your story, no one cares how much you hate it.
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Old 04-13-2014, 09:08 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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It probably doesn't help the whole reason the Darkspear were on the Lost Isles (or whatever) was because the other Jungle Troll tribes kicked them out, though given everybody else was willing to let the Drakkari (who even other trolls thought were bad mojo) work with them that isn't saying much.

I wouldn't have minded so much if the "Well, our home is gone. We need a new one" was played up more, but we didn't even find that out until Pandaria did we? So it strikes me more as needing more fodder for the heroics/filler expansion content.

It's the same reason Orcs turn on Garrosh I guess, that your characters have split personalities where one half of them is okay with being merciless, remorseless sociopaths to aiding whichever person is designated as being more self-righteous the next week. At least the Horde PC is consistent with his faction then! Dohohohoh.

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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
because trolls are dirty backstabbers in every regard.
They and the Blood Elves have more in common than they'd dare admit .
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Old 04-13-2014, 09:13 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Dude what is wrong with you? Someone else enjoying trolls does literally nothing to you or your story, no one cares how much you hate it.
*Gasp* Oh no, an invalidation!
Not telling people what to enjoy, this is giving an example, that if someone can complain at an aspect of lore, and I can provide an example of a similar situation that, to be frank, people have said themselves to just 'suck it up', well the point carries across.
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Old 04-13-2014, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
*Gasp* Oh no, an invalidation!
Not telling people what to enjoy, this is giving an example, that if someone can complain at an aspect of lore, and I can provide an example of a similar situation that, to be frank, people have said themselves to just 'suck it up', well the point carries across.
Course, the people who tell others to "suck it up" are almost universally regarded as assholes, regardless of who it's coming from or to whom it's directed, so maybe "well I'm only being as bad as other people already are" isn't really the defense you think it is.

I don't think I've seen a whole lot of Troll fans telling Orc fans to suck up having their entire story and character arcs smeared and dragged through the mud for years. If anything, I've seen a great deal of solidarity between fans of races who've had crap flung at them for several expansions, which makes your snappishness perplexing.

Anywho, the Darkspear have been given plenty of reason to oppose the Zandalari, given that the latter decided to declare war on all their friends. It's just that we weren't given a particularly good reason to explain the Zandalari's behaviour beyond "Oh well their home blew up (despite having withstood far worse in the past) so now they're completely insane despite that going against all their past characterization because Trolls".
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:35 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Perhaps because the Zandalari's motives are rather transparent. They don't really wish to elevate all of trollkind - they wish to ensure their own (Zandalari) dominion and survival, and they're using the "lesser" troll races as stepping stones to that end.

In the Zandalari vision, the Zandalari culture and empire will survive and prosper, but non-Zandalari trolls will never really be part of that culture, they'll merely be a working class who carry the burdens of the elite caste.
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Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

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Old 04-13-2014, 01:38 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ujimasa Hojo View Post
The Gurubashi Trolls expelled the Darkspear from Stranglethorn.
No, tribal rivalries after the Gurubashi empire fell did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Anywho, the Darkspear have been given plenty of reason to oppose the Zandalari, given that the latter decided to declare war on all their friends. It's just that we weren't given a particularly good reason to explain the Zandalari's behaviour beyond "Oh well their home blew up (despite having withstood far worse in the past) so now they're completely insane despite that going against all their past characterization because Trolls".
THIS

Stuff like the Zandalari having an EVUL empire that enslaved the Night Elves and Pandaren is quite the retcon. Remember, they exiled the Drakkari for Barbarism, and the Amani and Gurubashi left because the Zandalar wouldn't let them roam the path of conquest.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.

Last edited by JorgeAxe; 04-13-2014 at 01:40 PM..
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  #19  
Old 04-13-2014, 02:08 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Anywho, the Darkspear have been given plenty of reason to oppose the Zandalari, given that the latter decided to declare war on all their friends. It's just that we weren't given a particularly good reason to explain the Zandalari's behaviour beyond "Oh well their home blew up (despite having withstood far worse in the past) so now they're completely insane despite that going against all their past characterization because Trolls".
What have the Zandalari done that was so wrong?
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Old 04-13-2014, 02:16 PM
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The Zandalari disrespect the loa.
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Old 04-13-2014, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
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The Zandalari disrespect the loa.
The players kill loa and their champions on a expansion basis.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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Old 04-13-2014, 02:22 PM
neoshadow neoshadow is offline

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Quote:
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The Zandalari disrespect the loa.
do I bother bringing up the giant pile of bones they made for tharon`ja on the isle of thunder?
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Old 04-13-2014, 02:24 PM
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do I bother bringing up the giant pile of bones they made for tharon`ja on the isle of thunder?
He is/was just a troll.
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Old 04-13-2014, 02:25 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Quote:
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The Zandalari disrespect the loa.
When your civilization surpasses your gods, that tends to happen.
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Old 04-13-2014, 02:43 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Are the Loa even worth worshipping?

They all seem like jerks and they don't seem to give much of a damn about the preservation of the trolls that support them.

They gripe about being betrayed by them or being disrespected but they're the freaking gods it's their job to give the priests the guideplan for their spirituality and civilization
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