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Old 03-18-2018, 11:00 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Default Sylvanas: A necessary evil, or a liability for the Horde?

Contrary to what others think, I don't believe Sylvanas will become a raid boss. Not even Blizzard is ignorant enough to redo Garrosh's story. I can't see Thrall becoming Warchief again, as there's too much changes in his character for that to happen. I can't see others becoming the Warchief either, as they "have" to keep the faction conflict alive somehow. Why else would they kill off Vol'Jin?

So how can Blizzard portray Sylvanas in a way that won't end in a rebellion? Turn her into someone the Horde needs. I don't expect the Horde to become as ruthless as she is, and she may need to be reigned in somewhat, but being honorable is a direction I can't see the faction go anymore.
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Old 03-18-2018, 02:00 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Turn her into someone the Horde needs. I don't expect the Horde to become as ruthless as she is, and she may need to be reigned in somewhat, but being honorable is a direction I can't see the faction go anymore.
Make her please the general Horde populace, while still ignoring inner tensions between other leaders.

They can't spark a rebellion if the people don't follow through.

I believe Orcs would be dying to raid Stormwind with the backing reason of rescuing Saurfang, for instance.
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Old 03-18-2018, 03:37 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Sylvanas should become a caretaker of the dead à là Helya, except working for Odyn.
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Old 03-18-2018, 03:40 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Not even Blizzard is ignorant enough to redo Garrosh's story.
When I read a statement like this one, I don't think you're all that confident in your own prediction, and who can blame you? Blizzard, even during the good years, loves to rehash old stories, and we've seen foreshadowing from Varimathras, from Saurfang dialogue, and from her presentation and voiced lines that the raid boss ending is very much possible. I don't think this is a good thing for the story, mind you, but most of my predictions usually are of that sort of cynical nature.

Sylvanas becoming Warchief was a red flag for me back when it was announced. Part of what made that character work was that she had to be pragmatic in her moves and was never in complete control of the situation. She could play the role of the villain, or of the uncompromising champion of her people. When a Warchief does that, specifically the first part, you do get broad segments of the Horde playerbase expressing frustrations because this isn't what they signed up for. I've been seeing a lot of that quite recently.

I'd even call that worse than Garrosh. Garrosh could at least be accused of wanting what was best for the Horde, but with Sylvanas, it's difficult, if not impossible, to dismiss the claim that she's doing all of this for her own ends between wanting to stay out of WoW hell, to what Varimathras had said, to possible Old God corruption. Again, all of that works if she's a minor faction leader, but as Nu Garrosh, she's sucked in all of the Horde to travel on her character arc, and by extension the Alliance as well. Could this have been avoided? Possibly, but Teldrassil screws that up. Remove Teldrassil and you have a hyper paranoid Alliance starting a war with the Horde, with Sylvanas striking back as an inflamed defender. (Hey look! A conflict where both sides have understandable reasons to fight!) Instead, Sylvanas crosses a kind of moral Rubicon with Teldrassil, resulting in the whole Saurfang debacle, the Alliance having a pasty-white reason to invade Lordaeron, and the Horde once again being seen as the acting aggressors for the Alliance to merely react to.

Oh well, can't change that now. Iacta alea est and all that - but what is to be done about it?

Well, we have this character around whom the entire story now revolves, and who is probably if not evil, engaging in this war for her own personal reasons - not for the Horde's. Any one of those things I would regard as bad, but both at the same time? I don't see that situation as being sustainable. She has become a sort of lore cancer, and even a cursory glance at any part of the official forums can confirm this. Mentioning Sylvanas at any point in a thread is a great way to transmogrify a discussion on any topic into a frothing debate between the Alliance and the Horde partisans, where before you could at least keep it contained to people like Fojar and Forsaken boosters. Now it's so intense you can't escape it. Her time as an interesting support character has passed - she must be done away with. But how?

My answer: Sylvanas should be killed by a stingray.

....

Hear me out.

If you just hand the Alliance the kill, the Horde will (rightly) feel like garbage, and this will be egged on by chuckleheads on the other side acting as though their favorite team just won the Super Bowl while ignoring that, by necessity, the game was rigged and the outcome was predetermined. Another Siege of Orgrimmar would be less awful, but awful nonetheless. The Alliance would feel cheated, the Horde would still feel like dirt, and we would remember it as a complete rehash.

A stingray solves all of those problems. It's random, it's sudden, it's meaningless, and no one faction can claim pride over it. It just happened.... and now the Horde has to figure out what it should do next now that this immense war has just kicked off and they're stuck holding the bag.

True, this will ignite widespread rage among the fanbase, at least for a little while. Horde players will claim Alliance bias because they're losing another character. Then Alliance players will claim horde bias because a stingray stole their kill. This will be followed by volumes of old god theories that the stingray was a secret agent of N'zoth who was trying to kill Sylvanas to usher in his glorious takeover... or that Genn or Jaina is secretly a stingray. You'll get widespread commentary on why Stingrays should be an Allied Race, and even more volumes on stingray customization and outfits, and viability of Stingray druids. This will be followed by "Stingray totally confirmed" and will slip into accusations of Horde bias because Stingrays are stupid in comparison to the totally-going-to-happen Shark allied race that the Horde "must" get as compensation - because a shark killed Anduin off in a throwaway parity move - did I mention that? And this will go on... and on... and on...

.... and then it will peter out. Once it has, there will be harmony in the lore once again. Azeroth will no longer revolve around Sylvanas Windrunner, but rather, around the innumerable, complex, and interweaving stories of the people that live there.
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Old 03-20-2018, 12:25 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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The problem with Blizz is how "in-the-present" their writing is, so we can't really use the past of a character to predict their future. Hell, i'm 90% sure that Legion's Titans were meant to be watcher whose inner titan spirit awoke at some point (explaining Freya being missing)

Going back to the topic, we as omniscient-ish viewers know that Sylvanas is a self serving asshole, but in-universe while the Horde leadership may have personal reasons to dislike her, she hasn't really done anything to make the general population feel the same, other than being guilty by proxy of the Wrathgate.

We have yet to see what BfA does to her story
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Old 03-20-2018, 02:53 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 03-20-2018, 03:06 PM
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Old 03-20-2018, 04:11 PM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
The problem with Blizz is how "in-the-present" their writing is, so we can't really use the past of a character to predict their future. Hell, i'm 90% sure that Legion's Titans were meant to be watcher whose inner titan spirit awoke at some point (explaining Freya being missing)

Going back to the topic, we as omniscient-ish viewers know that Sylvanas is a self serving asshole, but in-universe while the Horde leadership may have personal reasons to dislike her, she hasn't really done anything to make the general population feel the same, other than being guilty by proxy of the Wrathgate.

We have yet to see what BfA does to her story
She's being all sorts of secretive with Gallywix. If I was part of the Horde leadership, I'd be VERY wary of this. But yeah, you're right, I suppose that she hasn't publicly done anything terrible.
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Old 03-20-2018, 08:33 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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A leader of a Mary Sue race who can never get any real comeuppance suiting their atrocities.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:22 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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True, this will ignite widespread rage among the fanbase, at least for a little while. Horde players will claim Alliance bias because they're losing another character. Then Alliance players will claim horde bias because a stingray stole their kill. This will be followed by volumes of old god theories that the stingray was a secret agent of N'zoth who was trying to kill Sylvanas to usher in his glorious takeover... or that Genn or Jaina is secretly a stingray. You'll get widespread commentary on why Stingrays should be an Allied Race, and even more volumes on stingray customization and outfits, and viability of Stingray druids. This will be followed by "Stingray totally confirmed" and will slip into accusations of Horde bias because Stingrays are stupid in comparison to the totally-going-to-happen Shark allied race that the Horde "must" get as compensation - because a shark killed Anduin off in a throwaway parity move - did I mention that? And this will go on... and on... and on...
This reminds me, I'm really surprised we're not getting an NPC race of shark people in BfA; they'd be perfect as the gnolls/quillboars/kobolds "vermin race" of Kul Tiras. Coastal scavengers who sink ships and raid harbors for chum and stuff.

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Old 03-21-2018, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Contrary to what others think, I don't believe Sylvanas will become a raid boss. Not even Blizzard is ignorant enough to redo Garrosh's story. I can't see Thrall becoming Warchief again, as there's too much changes in his character for that to happen. I can't see others becoming the Warchief either, as they "have" to keep the faction conflict alive somehow. Why else would they kill off Vol'Jin?

So how can Blizzard portray Sylvanas in a way that won't end in a rebellion? Turn her into someone the Horde needs. I don't expect the Horde to become as ruthless as she is, and she may need to be reigned in somewhat, but being honorable is a direction I can't see the faction go anymore.
I think Sylvanas will keep increasing the Horde aggression, until she's hoisted by her own petard. I don't expect her to be a raid boss like Garrosh, but I do expect her to die, most probably in some cinematic like Varian/Vol'jin.

I don't know how to make that satisfying. Maybe she dies in an ambiguous enough way that the Horde perceives her death as a sacrifice (even thought it isn't), and thus it causes the Horde to crave Alliance blood even more, while the Alliance gets to call dibs on the kill but is not entirely responsible for it.

It would happen before the end of the war. Things get even worse after that.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:33 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Contrary to what others think, I don't believe Sylvanas will become a raid boss. Not even Blizzard is ignorant enough to redo Garrosh's story. I can't see Thrall becoming Warchief again, as there's too much changes in his character for that to happen. I can't see others becoming the Warchief either, as they "have" to keep the faction conflict alive somehow. Why else would they kill off Vol'Jin?
Thrall definitely can become Warchief again, they could easily have Sylvanas assassinate his family and try to pin it on the Alliance or to stop him from suing for peace but her Deathstalkers botch it, and then have him start a rebellion over it, and reset the Horde. And, yes, Blizzard is absolutely that ignorant to redo Garrosh's story, especially if they want to give Alliance players more fistpump moments. They even had her commit an atrocity, just like Garrosh, to escalate a war that was already going on, combined with a lot of dislike for her among the Horde leadership.

They also don't "have" to keep the faction war going. It should end, permanently, in this expansion. Otherwise there is no point to this expansion if the entire point is to "settle" it.

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So how can Blizzard portray Sylvanas in a way that won't end in a rebellion? Turn her into someone the Horde needs. I don't expect the Horde to become as ruthless as she is, and she may need to be reigned in somewhat, but being honorable is a direction I can't see the faction go anymore.
If she isn't honorable, she WILL face a rebellion eventually. If the Horde isn't "honorable" anymore, than the faction has no purpose to exist. The only option left, is to kill her off. They can't reform her (unlike Illidan, she's loathed by players on both factions for being an evil and manipulative sociopath), and she has been building up to a great fall ever since the death of Arthas. It's like what happened to Garrosh, but in very slow motion.

In short: they can't portray her in a way that won't end in a rebellion. We're talking about the evil fruitloop who thought that a world-ending demon invasion was a perfect time to go skipping off to try to enslave some Val'kyr in some hare-brained evil scheme. If she can pull something that retarded, and commit an atrocity like the burning of Teldrassil, there is absolutely no way she's surviving this expansion or can have her portrayed positively without severely raping suspension of disbelief.
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Old 03-22-2018, 10:02 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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she's loathed by players on both factions for being an evil and manipulative sociopath
I'm not at all sure this is true. I think the Illidan comparison is apt.
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Old 03-22-2018, 01:53 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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I'm not at all sure this is true. I think the Illidan comparison is apt.
Illidan was largely beloved by a good chunk of the fanbase. Sylvanas, on the other hand, has never fit the Horde. She may be an outcast, but her ideology has never fit with the Horde's beliefs. That, and the unmistakable failure of all of her plots for immortality and the decline of the Val'kyr, and all of the hints they've been dropping about her inevitable fate.
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Old 03-22-2018, 02:29 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Illidan was largely beloved by a good chunk of the fanbase. Sylvanas, on the other hand, has never fit the Horde. She may be an outcast, but her ideology has never fit with the Horde's beliefs. That, and the unmistakable failure of all of her plots for immortality and the decline of the Val'kyr, and all of the hints they've been dropping about her inevitable fate.
Sylvanas is largely beloved by a good chunk of the fanbase.
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:01 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Sylvanas is largely beloved by a good chunk of the fanbase.
Only by Forsaken fanbois. Sylvanas ruins the Horde with her insanity and petty evil schemes. She's little more than a sexy Garrosh Hellscream.
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:53 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Thrall definitely can become Warchief again, they could easily have Sylvanas assassinate his family and try to pin it on the Alliance or to stop him from suing for peace but her Deathstalkers botch it, and then have him start a rebellion over it, and reset the Horde. And, yes, Blizzard is absolutely that ignorant to redo Garrosh's story, especially if they want to give Alliance players more fistpump moments. They even had her commit an atrocity, just like Garrosh, to escalate a war that was already going on, combined with a lot of dislike for her among the Horde leadership.

They also don't "have" to keep the faction war going. It should end, permanently, in this expansion. Otherwise there is no point to this expansion if the entire point is to "settle" it.
While that is cheesy and sappy imo, it can work. But do you consider how crappy it will be to go through a Garrosh 2.0 situation as a Horde fan? Not only are you to at first play a clueless dupe or a mediocre villain but then you are to become a rebel and wreck your own faction... again. I can get that you just want this over once and for all and will wade through a river of crap to get there but this is far from an ideal solution.

And I think Thrall fucked up way to much to deserve to lead the Horde. And now that we are apparently back in black with Sylvanas in charge we are set to have a Garrosh 2.0 clusterfuck. I am an old guard Horde fan by now, hell I don't even know much of the lore now, but I would be super pissed if the Garrosh storyline were to repeat just with Sylvanas (so probably worse).

I can go into detail about what the Horde should be and who could lead it, etc, etc... but honestly that can be summed up in two broad categories.

1. Have a Horde more like Thrall's Horde. How that works with Sylvanas in charge (or how to remove her from power without a major catastrophe) is harder to say. Maybe she is still the snake we know and love/hate but she pretends to be nice and actually leads the Horde competently with the rationale that a strong Horde = strong meatshield. Or she has some cheesy redemption, but I prefer option A, it lets the majority of Horde people do what they want (act honorably) while the snake in the grass Sylvanas adds some spice and intrigue to the faction.

2. We are the villains and we like it. I mean maybe most Horde players (the small % who care about the lore) didn't sign up to be bad guys but what they especially did not sign up for is to be incompetent bad guys who lose wars and fight miserable civil wars. If the Horde is to be the bastards faction under Sylvanas then let them be magnificent bastards. Full of flare, dark humor and most importantly victories. Warcraft is the game that finished two of its installments with a bad guy victory, why not keep up with that legacy?

Whatever happens I dearly hope we don't get a rehash of Garrosh. Again I am kind of disconnected from the fandom for a while now but if I was still playing/caring I'd go ballistic over that. Even with this distance in time I am sure I am not the only one who would react this way to a repeat of that travesty. And sadly knowing Blizzard repeating the same mistake is entirely on the table so who knows.

Give us something new and give us something good... or beware. That goes for both factions.
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Old 03-23-2018, 12:33 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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While that is cheesy and sappy imo, it can work. But do you consider how crappy it will be to go through a Garrosh 2.0 situation as a Horde fan? Not only are you to at first play a clueless dupe or a mediocre villain but then you are to become a rebel and wreck your own faction... again. I can get that you just want this over once and for all and will wade through a river of crap to get there but this is far from an ideal solution.
Oh, it will be crappy to go through that shit again. But I see absolutely no other options, as Blizzard has written themselves into a corner with Sylvanas. They can't keep her alive and leading the Horder after her atrocities, especially just after they threw out another genocidal and warmongering tyrant.

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And I think Thrall fucked up way to much to deserve to lead the Horde. And now that we are apparently back in black with Sylvanas in charge we are set to have a Garrosh 2.0 clusterfuck. I am an old guard Horde fan by now, hell I don't even know much of the lore now, but I would be super pissed if the Garrosh storyline were to repeat just with Sylvanas (so probably worse).
I disagree. Thrall made mistakes, and was humbled by them. He is also the only one capable of being Warchief, as I doubt many would accept Lor'themar as Warchief, Baine is a pussy, Trolls have no leader, and Saurfang and Eitrigg are already one foot in the grave. It would also be good to rehabilitate his character, and have him become the badass he always should have been before Kosak and Metzen fucked it all up and made him some whiny vagrant. Killing off Aggra, of whom is a worthless scrappy and satellite love interest, along with his kids, would get him some needed fire in wanting to kill Sylvanas and make him relevant again. Sylvanas could even kill them for his "behind the scenes manipulations" such as with the Mag'har, due to her being paranoid. It would also make sense, at least from my fan crack theory, that they are bringing both Thrall and Jaina back, at the same time in the same expansion, to return both of the characters to who they used to be before Garrosh fucked everything up, and this will be the completion of that cycle.

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1. Have a Horde more like Thrall's Horde. How that works with Sylvanas in charge (or how to remove her from power without a major catastrophe) is harder to say. Maybe she is still the snake we know and love/hate but she pretends to be nice and actually leads the Horde competently with the rationale that a strong Horde = strong meatshield. Or she has some cheesy redemption, but I prefer option A, it lets the majority of Horde people do what they want (act honorably) while the snake in the grass Sylvanas adds some spice and intrigue to the faction.
I can't see this as possible. Sylvanas' crimes are far too great, and if she is left alive, she will just drag the Horde through more villainous horseshit while Alliance fans whine incessantly about how she is immune to any and all punishment, especially after Garrosh was killed off for pulling the same stupid shit.

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2. We are the villains and we like it. I mean maybe most Horde players (the small % who care about the lore) didn't sign up to be bad guys but what they especially did not sign up for is to be incompetent bad guys who lose wars and fight miserable civil wars. If the Horde is to be the bastards faction under Sylvanas then let them be magnificent bastards. Full of flare, dark humor and most importantly victories. Warcraft is the game that finished two of its installments with a bad guy victory, why not keep up with that legacy?
They largely can't do this, because it is an MMO now, rather than an RTS. While it would be refreshing to have the villains win, I don't want the Horde to become villains to win. If villains are going to win, I would rather it be a third party group like some Old God minions or the Void or something.

I also think that Blizzard has been far too blunt in hinting about where Sylvanas is going. They've said that Sylvanas will suffer a "reckoning", like here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=0GLxejJ-yYQ

I believe the current war is that "something" that we will have to "deal with". They've been building this up for years, as with Garrosh with the little hints during Wrath and Cata.

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Whatever happens I dearly hope we don't get a rehash of Garrosh. Again I am kind of disconnected from the fandom for a while now but if I was still playing/caring I'd go ballistic over that. Even with this distance in time I am sure I am not the only one who would react this way to a repeat of that travesty. And sadly knowing Blizzard repeating the same mistake is entirely on the table so who knows.
I did go "ballistic" over it. I immediately saw where the Burning of Teldrassil was headed, and at first I was pissed. After a while, though, I thought about how it might finally cleanse the Horde of the impure and unfit. The evil and stupid will be purged, and the honorable will thrive! THEY'LL MAKE THE HORDE GREAT AGAIN!
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Old 03-23-2018, 12:41 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Oh, it will be crappy to go through that shit again. But I see absolutely no other options, as Blizzard has written themselves into a corner with Sylvanas. They can't keep her alive and leading the Horder after her atrocities, especially just after they threw out another genocidal and warmongering tyrant.
Garrosh was overthrown because he went apeshit on trolls and tauren, kicking them out of Orgrimmar.

Sylvanas is lovely benevolent to the races of the Horde. Inner politics wise, she's in a way better situation.
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Old 03-23-2018, 01:27 PM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Three thoughts:

1) I really admire the faith of those who believe blizzard will "finally" "settle" the Faction War with this xpac. Smae thing should've happened in MoP, and one expansion later (because WoD either doesn't exist or is merely fallout of MoP and setup for Legion) here we are again. Faction war (not faction conflict, faction war, with full mobilization) seems to be the soul of this franchise in Blizz's eyes.

2) Jaina going back to her pre-MoP ways, after being hit by the material and moral equivalent of an atomic bomb and finally, finally, finally, after almost a decade and a half, confronting the fact that she abandoned her father to die in the hands of the Horde would be pathetic beyond description. That's her character now. While she shouldn't be always itching to drown Orgrimmar and slaughter even the elderly and the children among the Orcs, she should always retain her edge when dealing with them. There's simply no realistic or acceptable way for her to become that naive pacifist again.

3) Sylvanas attempted enslavement of Eiyr is indeed too promptly overlooked. No matter how you slice it, she did try to rob a sentient, even divine being of her free will and reduce her to a piece of property to be used for her egotistical purposes. That's just unapologetically EVIL and should be addressed. Even if they don't want her to be Da Villain™, the fact should not be glossed over, but maybe rewrote as a move out of desperation (reaching, but possible) and punished accordingly.
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Old 03-23-2018, 02:39 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
Three thoughts:

1) I really admire the faith of those who believe blizzard will "finally" "settle" the Faction War with this xpac. Smae thing should've happened in MoP, and one expansion later (because WoD either doesn't exist or is merely fallout of MoP and setup for Legion) here we are again. Faction war (not faction conflict, faction war, with full mobilization) seems to be the soul of this franchise in Blizz's eyes.
Well, I'm fucking sick of the Horde constantly being written to be the villains just to give the Alliance "fistpump moments", especially when it constantly results in shitty "victories" for the Alliance while the Horde gets ripped apart, leading to further douchitude from the Horde because the Alliance didn't get exactly the "win" they wanted. I want the Horde to be legitimate, completely morally justified, and unambiguous heroes, much like they were in Vanilla. You can still do that with some shades of grey, but they have gotten rid of those and replaced them with "edginess".

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2) Jaina going back to her pre-MoP ways, after being hit by the material and moral equivalent of an atomic bomb and finally, finally, finally, after almost a decade and a half, confronting the fact that she abandoned her father to die in the hands of the Horde would be pathetic beyond description.
No, that wouldn't be "pathetic", it would prove that Jaina was stronger than her racist monster of a father. Daelin was a genocidal wack job, and Jaina was entirely in the right letting him die to save innocent people, her father or not.

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That's her character now. While she shouldn't be always itching to drown Orgrimmar and slaughter even the elderly and the children among the Orcs, she should always retain her edge when dealing with them. There's simply no realistic or acceptable way for her to become that naive pacifist again.
But that's exactly what Jaina always will be, as long as she hates the Horde. Bigot Jaina has proven, time and again, that she's just Garrosh in a skirt, and is itching to butcher women and children. All it would take would be a simple misunderstanding, like say Varian dying because of a forced retreat that she stupidly labels a "betrayal" because she's a crazed hatemonger looking for an excuse, to flip out and butcher thousands for fun. Every character in Warcraft that has followed that same path of racist hate mongering and blind rage, has ended up in the same place: dead. Arthas did it, Daelin did it, Garrosh did it, Garithos did it, Sylvanas has been getting there slowly by steadily, and now Jaina's going to end up there.

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3) Sylvanas attempted enslavement of Eiyr is indeed too promptly overlooked. No matter how you slice it, she did try to rob a sentient, even divine being of her free will and reduce her to a piece of property to be used for her egotistical purposes. That's just unapologetically EVIL and should be addressed. Even if they don't want her to be Da Villain™, the fact should not be glossed over, but maybe rewrote as a move out of desperation (reaching, but possible) and punished accordingly.
She should have been killed after the Wrathgate. I always found it suspicious that she didn't "know" that the RFA and Varimathras were plotting behind her back.
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  #22  
Old 03-22-2018, 05:47 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Illidan was hardly better than Sylvanas in WC3 to TBC. If anything, he's an example of where Sylvanas is going (that is, a sneering baby kicking villain turned into a dark hero out of fanservice).

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I hope not, but what I hope for and what probably will happen are two different things. Again, I humbly propose a stingray as an answer to that.
She has almost all the trappings. She just needs her Jim Raynor.

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How does this make them Mary Sues?
Maybe I should have just called then poorly written.

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I missed the part where despite victory in battle, the Gilneans lose so many that it costs them the war. "Pyyhic victory" is a clearly defined thing, and we really need to get out of the habit of calling anything short of a complete victory "Pyyhric".
Gilneas came out of the invasion in worse shape than the Forsaken were. And the Alliance won little from the Horde in the end anyway (no reparations, no surrendered territory, just empty threats).

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Ok, but she is still thwarted. That's my point. They don't just get everything they want, they don't just win all of the time, and the Alliance does get victories over them.
In proportion to their atrocities? And how much damage has the Alliance really done to the Forsaken that impedes their ability to drop plague nukes?

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No I don't.
Come on, I'm sure you know that Blizzard is all about that status quo (see Varian's failed attempt to get the Blood Elves back as Alliance and Dalaran with its eternal neutrality) and parity. And really, I'd call seizing Ashenvale the better deal since it's not a plagued dump. The Alliance hasn't even moved to seize Quel'thalas (which I'd call the shining gem of the Eastern Horde). At best, the Alliance gets stuck with a dump that'll come with some drawback to it.

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Edit: One word of caution I'd throw at the end of that though: the Forsaken have always had a shade of darkness, scheming, and ruthlessness about them that players have enjoyed. You can't just take that away, so whatever solution you have must make substantial provision for them. Otherwise? They will rightly claim that their favorite race has been neutered - and as someone who knows how that feels, it is something I have to bring up as an outcome to avoid.
I didn't talk about removing darkness. They can be dark and scheming, just in a way that's more suitable for a playable faction largely drawn from Humanity that can't be wiped out. We already have the Ebon Blade to look towards.

Last edited by Cacofonix; 03-22-2018 at 05:50 PM..
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Old 03-23-2018, 06:41 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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Sylvanas is a piece of shit she is worse than garrosh, at least Garrosh cared about some people as opposed to sylvanas "Voidlordtotallynotanoldgodminionusingloasghuunfor themtotellvoljintomakeherwarchieftogivehermoreexpe ndablefuckingfootsoldiers" SinRunnr.

Last edited by Gurzog; 03-23-2018 at 06:44 PM..
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:55 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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So how can Blizzard portray Sylvanas in a way that won't end in a rebellion? Turn her into someone the Horde needs. I don't expect the Horde to become as ruthless as she is, and she may need to be reigned in somewhat, but being honorable is a direction I can't see the faction go anymore.
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