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  #51  
Old 06-25-2013, 12:09 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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  #52  
Old 06-25-2013, 12:30 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
The thing is it would be a guerrilla war. They're rangers. Taking on a bigger force in sneaky underhanded ways without a ton of support is what they do. And just because they have no political say in Silvermoon doesn't mean they would have no sympathizers among the general populace. The riot prevention proved that. I especially expect the Farstriders to be somewhat torn in their loyalties.

It would be more about harrassment than actual conquest. They'd control Quel'thalas no more than the wretched and the Night Elves did.


It's unrealistic. Especially the part of the High elves holding a part of capital city of Silvermoon. It would be similar to a group of forsaken holding up in part of Stormwind. Even if the forsaken were former Stormwind citizens and had some local support, the local government would pull out all of the stops to root out the invaders and crush them. I doubt the Rangers/Farstriders would be torn in loyalty. They have proven that they are loyal to Quel'thalas and it's government. The legitimate government. Anything proposed of down by Varessa would be the actions of a foreign imposed government.The Farstriders might not hate the High elves as much as much of the population (who would be regarding High elves as traitors), but they will hold to their duty and honor and would very likely turn in any High elves they met/caught.

The same for pretty much the rest of Quel'thalas. The High elves would be seen as invaders to be rooted out and destroyed. The Farstriders have the added advantage of knowing the land better than their High elven cousins (It's changed noticeably since the Scourge invaded)
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  #53  
Old 06-25-2013, 12:56 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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It's unrealistic. Especially the part of the High elves holding a part of capital city of Silvermoon. It would be similar to a group of forsaken holding up in part of Stormwind. Even if the forsaken were former Stormwind citizens and had some local support, the local government would pull out all of the stops to root out the invaders and crush them. I doubt the Rangers/Farstriders would be torn in loyalty. They have proven that they are loyal to Quel'thalas and it's government. The legitimate government. Anything proposed of down by Varessa would be the actions of a foreign imposed government.The Farstriders might not hate the High elves as much as much of the population (who would be regarding High elves as traitors), but they will hold to their duty and honor and would very likely turn in any High elves they met/caught.

The same for pretty much the rest of Quel'thalas. The High elves would be seen as invaders to be rooted out and destroyed. The Farstriders have the added advantage of knowing the land better than their High elven cousins (It's changed noticeably since the Scourge invaded)
Sufficeth to say I do not share your confidence in the Farstriders individual loyalties. They've already shown themselves as willing to work with them to the point of defying Lor'themar.

Oh, and the part of Silvermoon I was talking about them occupying makes perfect sense. It's the ruined half where a whole ton of wretched live. If the Blood Elves can't get rid of a bunch of crackheads in those ruins, what makes you think they can handle trained guerrilla warriors?
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  #54  
Old 06-25-2013, 02:19 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Sufficeth to say I do not share your confidence in the Farstriders individual loyalties. They've already shown themselves as willing to work with them to the point of defying Lor'themar.

Oh, and the part of Silvermoon I was talking about them occupying makes perfect sense. It's the ruined half where a whole ton of wretched live. If the Blood Elves can't get rid of a bunch of crackheads in those ruins, what makes you think they can handle trained guerrilla warriors?
Don't forget that the Blood elf and Draenei starting zones are stuck at the beginning of BC. they can't change. But it would be silly to assume that the Wretched haven't been all dealt with by now and efforts have been made to rebuild the ruined part of Silvermoon. Sunsail Anchorage has to have been reclaimed and operating by now as well as the other problem areas on Eversong Forest. To think that the blood elves wouldn't have been able to cleanse and retake those areas after 4 years is kind of laughable.

The only work the Farstriders did was to let them help against the Amani. I doubt any Farstrider would let the High elves set up a encampment in Quel'thalas let alone aid them because that is treason. Lor'themar is the legitimate ruler of Quel'thalas. Varessa and her people are classified as outsiders and traitors. She and most of the high elves rejected the High elven, then the Blood elven culture long ago by deciding to remain outside of Quel'thalas when the King removed the High elves from the Alliance. Those who remained were also ordered to leave when they refused to follow the creed of the government. The High elves don't have any claim to ruling Quel'thalas.

You're assuming that the Farstriders would either commit treason in large numbers (aiding the High elves or not reporting their presence ) or that they and the Blood Knights are so incompetent that they wouldn't be able to push the High elves out. The Blood elves have the advantage of being on their home ground which they know a lot better than the High elves, they have the support of the population (any High elf popular support would be tepid at best) and they would be able to draw on the resources of the Horde for aid. Something the High elves would not be able to do. The High elves would be outmatched in numbers of troops, scouts, arms and equipment and in magical and healing support. They might be able to do damage, but the High elves would be outmatched fairly quickly.
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  #55  
Old 06-25-2013, 04:17 PM
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I think the High Elves would be far more interested in getting a new home than trying to take Quel'thalas back. But I see High Elves mating with humans and slowly evolving into a full-fledged half-elven race.
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  #56  
Old 06-25-2013, 06:06 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Don't forget that the Blood elf and Draenei starting zones are stuck at the beginning of BC. they can't change. But it would be silly to assume that the Wretched haven't been all dealt with by now and efforts have been made to rebuild the ruined part of Silvermoon. Sunsail Anchorage has to have been reclaimed and operating by now as well as the other problem areas on Eversong Forest. To think that the blood elves wouldn't have been able to cleanse and retake those areas after 4 years is kind of laughable.

The only work the Farstriders did was to let them help against the Amani. I doubt any Farstrider would let the High elves set up a encampment in Quel'thalas let alone aid them because that is treason. Lor'themar is the legitimate ruler of Quel'thalas. Varessa and her people are classified as outsiders and traitors. She and most of the high elves rejected the High elven, then the Blood elven culture long ago by deciding to remain outside of Quel'thalas when the King removed the High elves from the Alliance. Those who remained were also ordered to leave when they refused to follow the creed of the government. The High elves don't have any claim to ruling Quel'thalas.

You're assuming that the Farstriders would either commit treason in large numbers (aiding the High elves or not reporting their presence ) or that they and the Blood Knights are so incompetent that they wouldn't be able to push the High elves out. The Blood elves have the advantage of being on their home ground which they know a lot better than the High elves, they have the support of the population (any High elf popular support would be tepid at best) and they would be able to draw on the resources of the Horde for aid. Something the High elves would not be able to do. The High elves would be outmatched in numbers of troops, scouts, arms and equipment and in magical and healing support. They might be able to do damage, but the High elves would be outmatched fairly quickly.
The way, say, a group of middle eastern insurgents would quickly be outmatched by a western military superpower? Lol. You seem unable to grasp the concept of a guerrilla war. The idea is to fight and harass an enemy of obviously superior military strength using limited personnel and resources.

BTW, the High Elves know Quel'thalas just as well as the Blood Elves do. It's their homeland too. They've been away for less than a decade, and they possibly could have lived their lives there for centuries before that.

Oh, and while I think the world of the Blood Knights, they're not my first choice for fighting guerrilla fighters. Legions of undead and demons absolutely, but a small elite guerrilla force utilizing mainly ranged weapons, traps, and unconventional warfare tactics has more than a few advantages in such a situation. Especially in areas with lots of cover and concealment such as the western ruins of Silvermoon City, the denser portions of Eversong Woods, and the Ghostlands.

Finally in regards to the Farstriders, I seriously doubt you and I will see eye to eye on this, but imagine the situation. These elves have fought side by side against trolls, orcs and undead. These aren't lesser races. These are friends. Kin. Neighbors. People who were banished because they wouldn't follow the others down a path that they regret taking in the first place. Is it such a difficult concept to grasp that this would be a major problem for the Sin'Dorei in this situation?
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  #57  
Old 06-25-2013, 06:08 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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I think the High Elves would be far more interested in getting a new home than trying to take Quel'thalas back. But I see High Elves mating with humans and slowly evolving into a full-fledged half-elven race.
Your first idea I support 100%. The second one I object to 100%. We only know of 3 human-elf pairs in wow. Vereesa, Alleria and that tavern owner in central dalaran. It'd make it a very rare occurance.
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  #58  
Old 06-25-2013, 06:18 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Your first idea I support 100%. The second one I object to 100%. We only know of 3 human-elf pairs in wow. Vereesa, Alleria and that tavern owner in central dalaran. It'd make it a very rare occurance.
Have it happen decades in the future and have them retreat from an apocalypse through the caverns of time to the present.
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  #59  
Old 06-25-2013, 07:05 PM
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Your first idea I support 100%. The second one I object to 100%. We only know of 3 human-elf pairs in wow. Vereesa, Alleria and that tavern owner in central dalaran. It'd make it a very rare occurance.
I said evolving slowly. I don't see it happening in WoW's timespan. But over a few decades or centuries, I see it as the direction the High Elves are going, with few "pure bloods" remaining.
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  #60  
Old 06-25-2013, 10:06 PM
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And somewhere, a Draenei is sitting crying in a shower.
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  #61  
Old 06-26-2013, 04:42 AM
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And somewhere, a Draenei is sitting crying in a shower.
Their time will come... someday........ "soon"..................
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  #62  
Old 06-26-2013, 05:55 AM
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I said evolving slowly. I don't see it happening in WoW's timespan. But over a few decades or centuries, I see it as the direction the High Elves are going, with few "pure bloods" remaining.
A race only needs 7 - 3 males and 4 females - to be genetically viable. Somehow I think the High Elves have more than that.

Breeding with humans is not needed for High Elves to survive long-term.

But they should not be in Quel'thalas. As I suggested in another thread, they can settle somewhere else. Preferably an island chain they take from Forest Trolls and then defend against another enemy. Maybe Blood Elves, maybe Naga.
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  #63  
Old 06-26-2013, 06:56 AM
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A race only needs 7 - 3 males and 4 females - to be genetically viable. Somehow I think the High Elves have more than that.

Breeding with humans is not needed for High Elves to survive long-term.

But they should not be in Quel'thalas. As I suggested in another thread, they can settle somewhere else. Preferably an island chain they take from Forest Trolls and then defend against another enemy. Maybe Blood Elves, maybe Naga.
Not sure where you got that info since I recall reading that humans need 250 people in the least to avoid horrible inbreeding while a safe number is 2500.

'Course, elves, magic, whatever...
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  #64  
Old 06-26-2013, 06:59 AM
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Not sure where you got that info since I recall reading that humans need 250 people in the least to avoid horrible inbreeding while a safe number is 2500.

'Course, elves, magic, whatever...
There are high elves residing in Stormwind, Allerian Stronghold, Shattrath and Dalaran. I believe their numbers are over one thousand, to say the least.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:49 AM
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Not sure where you got that info since I recall reading that humans need 250 people in the least to avoid horrible inbreeding while a safe number is 2500.

'Course, elves, magic, whatever...
A recent study, I think it's less than a year old. Though for such low numbers to work you'd have to rely on strict rules and control for who breeds with whom etc. More individuals are of course preferred.
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  #66  
Old 06-26-2013, 08:15 AM
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  #67  
Old 06-26-2013, 08:26 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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The way, say, a group of middle eastern insurgents would quickly be outmatched by a western military superpower? Lol. You seem unable to grasp the concept of a guerrilla war. The idea is to fight and harass an enemy of obviously superior military strength using limited personnel and resources.

BTW, the High Elves know Quel'thalas just as well as the Blood Elves do. It's their homeland too. They've been away for less than a decade, and they possibly could have lived their lives there for centuries before that.

Oh, and while I think the world of the Blood Knights, they're not my first choice for fighting guerrilla fighters. Legions of undead and demons absolutely, but a small elite guerrilla force utilizing mainly ranged weapons, traps, and unconventional warfare tactics has more than a few advantages in such a situation. Especially in areas with lots of cover and concealment such as the western ruins of Silvermoon City, the denser portions of Eversong Woods, and the Ghostlands.

Finally in regards to the Farstriders, I seriously doubt you and I will see eye to eye on this, but imagine the situation. These elves have fought side by side against trolls, orcs and undead. These aren't lesser races. These are friends. Kin. Neighbors. People who were banished because they wouldn't follow the others down a path that they regret taking in the first place. Is it such a difficult concept to grasp that this would be a major problem for the Sin'Dorei in this situation?
Those groups only survive because of aid from the outside. They are supplied and funded by organizations and nations outside and safe from retaliation. Unless the High elves have a lot of support, they simply would not be able do much.

You're giving every advantage to the High elves and every disadvantage to the Blood elves. The High elves only know the general outlay of the land. They do not know how it's changed. New dangers and threats. Silvermoon itself has changed from being rebuilt. The Blood elves would know the land and city a lot better than the High elves, they've been fighting on it and patrolling it since it was changed. The High elves have not. Plus they have the popular support. They would have a LOT more support from the Horde. They have access to a lot more mages (scrying anyone?) for arcane support, plus the services of the priests and Blood knights who would be very good at storming any High elven fortified positions in their heavy armor and defensive/offensive/healing magics.

Many Blood elves see the High elves as traitors and the Farstriders, while they might have kin or had friends among the High elves, all of that would be cast aside if the High elves tried to take over Quel'thalas. the High elves would be attacking the Farstriders home. This puts them in a situation they would be far more likely to shoot the High elf than help since the High elves are attacking and fighting the legitimate government of Quel'thalas. If the High elves managed to win, every Blood elf immediately becomes a second class citizen at best and a refugee at worst because of the High elves. You're proposing that the Farstriders would not turn in and would even help someone that they likely see as a traitor and is trying to kill their own people(Sin'dorei) and cast down the government for the Alliance?

This isn't to say that the High elves wouldn't be able to cause some damage, but unless they are funded heavily with troops and arms and equipment, they would be nothing more than a nuisance to the Blood elves, and the Farstriders in particular.
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Old 06-26-2013, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Those groups only survive because of aid from the outside. They are supplied and funded by organizations and nations outside and safe from retaliation. Unless the High elves have a lot of support, they simply would not be able do much.

You're giving every advantage to the High elves and every disadvantage to the Blood elves. The High elves only know the general outlay of the land. They do not know how it's changed. New dangers and threats. Silvermoon itself has changed from being rebuilt. The Blood elves would know the land and city a lot better than the High elves, they've been fighting on it and patrolling it since it was changed. The High elves have not. Plus they have the popular support. They would have a LOT more support from the Horde. They have access to a lot more mages (scrying anyone?) for arcane support, plus the services of the priests and Blood knights who would be very good at storming any High elven fortified positions in their heavy armor and defensive/offensive/healing magics.

Many Blood elves see the High elves as traitors and the Farstriders, while they might have kin or had friends among the High elves, all of that would be cast aside if the High elves tried to take over Quel'thalas. the High elves would be attacking the Farstriders home. This puts them in a situation they would be far more likely to shoot the High elf than help since the High elves are attacking and fighting the legitimate government of Quel'thalas. If the High elves managed to win, every Blood elf immediately becomes a second class citizen at best and a refugee at worst because of the High elves. You're proposing that the Farstriders would not turn in and would even help someone that they likely see as a traitor and is trying to kill their own people(Sin'dorei) and cast down the government for the Alliance?

This isn't to say that the High elves wouldn't be able to cause some damage, but unless they are funded heavily with troops and arms and equipment, they would be nothing more than a nuisance to the Blood elves, and the Farstriders in particular.

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Old 06-26-2013, 09:53 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Those groups only survive because of aid from the outside. They are supplied and funded by organizations and nations outside and safe from retaliation. Unless the High elves have a lot of support, they simply would not be able do much.

You're giving every advantage to the High elves and every disadvantage to the Blood elves. The High elves only know the general outlay of the land. They do not know how it's changed. New dangers and threats. Silvermoon itself has changed from being rebuilt. The Blood elves would know the land and city a lot better than the High elves, they've been fighting on it and patrolling it since it was changed. The High elves have not. Plus they have the popular support. They would have a LOT more support from the Horde. They have access to a lot more mages (scrying anyone?) for arcane support, plus the services of the priests and Blood knights who would be very good at storming any High elven fortified positions in their heavy armor and defensive/offensive/healing magics.

Many Blood elves see the High elves as traitors and the Farstriders, while they might have kin or had friends among the High elves, all of that would be cast aside if the High elves tried to take over Quel'thalas. the High elves would be attacking the Farstriders home. This puts them in a situation they would be far more likely to shoot the High elf than help since the High elves are attacking and fighting the legitimate government of Quel'thalas. If the High elves managed to win, every Blood elf immediately becomes a second class citizen at best and a refugee at worst because of the High elves. You're proposing that the Farstriders would not turn in and would even help someone that they likely see as a traitor and is trying to kill their own people(Sin'dorei) and cast down the government for the Alliance?

This isn't to say that the High elves wouldn't be able to cause some damage, but unless they are funded heavily with troops and arms and equipment, they would be nothing more than a nuisance to the Blood elves, and the Farstriders in particular.
Wow, you really have no concept of Guerrilla Warfare do you. Storming fortified positions? What kind of insurgent is dumb enough to maintain such obvious positions. Insurgency requires a certain level of stealth, a concept you can't seem to wrap your head around.

You overestimate the hostile feelings towards high elves in Quel'thalas. Especially among the Farstriders, who practically are high elves. You give no advantage to High Elves, and seem blind to any that they would have.
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Old 06-26-2013, 09:57 AM
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I'm just going to jump in here quickly despite saying that the High Elves shouldn't attack Quel'thalas and simply settle elsewhere, rebuild and regroup. But...

Wasn't the entire point of Halduron inviting Vereesa and her rangers to combat the Amani because they had expert knowledge of the land? Just saying.
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Old 06-26-2013, 10:59 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Wow, you really have no concept of Guerrilla Warfare do you. Storming fortified positions? What kind of insurgent is dumb enough to maintain such obvious positions. Insurgency requires a certain level of stealth, a concept you can't seem to wrap your head around.

You overestimate the hostile feelings towards high elves in Quel'thalas. Especially among the Farstriders, who practically are high elves. You give no advantage to High Elves, and seem blind to any that they would have.
They're gonna apply guerrilla warfare to te other guys who apply guerrilla warfare? Seriously? Because that worked so well for the night elves and they totally passed unnoticed.
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Old 06-26-2013, 11:27 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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They're gonna apply guerrilla warfare to te other guys who apply guerrilla warfare? Seriously? Because that worked so well for the night elves and they totally passed unnoticed.
Kinda the point. In addition to taking the place of the wretched in various subzones, they'd also take the place of the night elves in Ghostlands.
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:29 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Wow, you really have no concept of Guerrilla Warfare do you. Storming fortified positions? What kind of insurgent is dumb enough to maintain such obvious positions. Insurgency requires a certain level of stealth, a concept you can't seem to wrap your head around.

You overestimate the hostile feelings towards high elves in Quel'thalas. Especially among the Farstriders, who practically are high elves. You give no advantage to High Elves, and seem blind to any that they would have.


Yes I do have a concept of guerrilla warfare. I know that without help and in a land where the locals are heavily supportive of the government and the local military knows the land better than the guerrillas, the guerrillas tend to do badly. Guerrillas need bases to operate from. Those tend to be somewhat fortified by natural terrain with whatever additions the guerrillas add. They need a place to story supplies, rest and eat, a place to let down their guard somewhat. That's the sort of place I am talking about.

I am looking at the Farstriders realistically. Far more realistically than you are I think. You seem to think that many Farstriders would help/offer aid to the High elves who would be killing Sin'dorei and spying and sabotaging the Quel'thalas military and citizens. You really think that the Farstriders would be alright with that? Despite how they might sympathize with the High elves, they -will- do their duty and protect Quel'thalas. They have no real reason to help the High elves that I can see other than 'I feel sorry for you'. It's not like Lor'themar's government is unpopular. What little we know of it is that it is fairly popular. The incident in the Bazaar is stuck way in the past now and no lore has suggested that a majority or even a large minority of the Sin'dorei are dissatisfied with him.

The High elves represent an enemy regime now. like it or not, they are the enemy if they come into Quel'thalas with the intent to cause trouble and kill things. If they were only going to pass pamphlets around and stage protests they might get more sympathy, but the moment they start stealing, breaking things and killing Sin'dorei, the High elves cross the line into being open enemies and it would be a very rare Farstrider that would offer to help them now.

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Wasn't the entire point of Halduron inviting Vereesa and her rangers to combat the Amani because they had expert knowledge of the land? Just saying.
Somewhat yes, and they were a decent sized military force there willing to help. Menel'dirion is turning them from disgruntled helpers to open enemies.

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  #74  
Old 06-26-2013, 02:11 PM
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A race only needs 7 - 3 males and 4 females - to be genetically viable. Somehow I think the High Elves have more than that.

Breeding with humans is not needed for High Elves to survive long-term.
But they are living with humans. With the exception of Quel'Danil elves, all other major HE populations (Stormwind, Allerian Stronghold, Dalaran) have mixed populations. I can see they naturally breeding with humans over the years, up to a point that a pure-blood High Elf becomes a rare thing over a few centuries. They would all still be called High Elves, thought.

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But they should not be in Quel'thalas. As I suggested in another thread, they can settle somewhere else. Preferably an island chain they take from Forest Trolls and then defend against another enemy. Maybe Blood Elves, maybe Naga.
They have Dalaran now. It's a pretty good start.
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:19 PM
Darkphoenix Darkphoenix is offline

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What will happen with the Blood Elves in the next patch? I'm not too sure. However, I am far more interested in where they'll stand next expansion.

If anyone has the biggest chance of shaking things up between the High Elves and the Blood Elves, it's got to be Alleria Windrunner. She is the sort of character who'll either unite the two political factions, or further split them apart. I mention this because the small boost in number for the Blood Elves IF Alleria patches things up could make for some interesting development.
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