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Old 07-01-2018, 11:33 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Night Elf Icon (War3) City Planning: Design a New Night Elf Capital

So here’s the challenge: design a new home and Headquarters for the Night Elf Race. At a minimum, describe
1. It’s location
2. It’s layout (various districts, what classes are where, what professions are taught where, etc.)
3. Various attractions and cultural sites.

If you have the requisite tools and skills, I’d love to see maps, scenic pictures, etc.

I intend to do another one for the Undead. Maybe for Allied Races as well.
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Old 07-03-2018, 08:25 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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I'll take a better look at this later but my preferences for night elves would be:

A new capital build atop Mount Hyjal, either below Nordrassil at its peak or around the lower slopes that got burnt by the fire elementals and are now healing;

Failing that, a new capital built around the Temple of Elune and Lorlathil, including the Grove of Cenarius, all in Val'Sharah, perhaps connected via the Dream Portals to Hyjal;

Failing that, a new capital around Seradane, with outposts in the southern Eastern Plaguelands and fostering relations with Wildhammer dwarves and Highvale elves.
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Old 07-13-2018, 07:24 AM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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Moonglade - Nighthaven. Update all the buildings there with the HD Night Elf ones in Legion. Fits perfectly, and could open up a possibility for the Kaldorei Worgen and Furbolg allied races.

Alternatively, going with the Broken Isles idea. Lorathil could work too, and a rebuilt Azsuna too.
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Old 07-22-2018, 08:38 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Night Elves unilaterally decide to cut their losses and abandon the sinking ship that is Kalimdor. Fuck it, the Horde can have it. It's all broken in half and on fire anyways.

Having taken refuge in Stormwind, the Night Elves look to nearby regions to move into and inhabit. And those Gurubashi Trolls to the south are probably too weak to fight back, what with the decades of being invaded and continuously defeated. The thick jungles of Stranglethorn Vale will suit the Elves just fine. It's not too different from their former home; there's trees, there's cats, there's magic.

So they set up shop in Zul'Gurub. It's free real estate, basically. And there are a buncha temples and shrines just waiting to be recycled and used, Mother Mooning them up a bit. And the nearby Horde encampment will probably not be too much of a problem either. That settlement is a glorified zeppelin tower built from sticks. All it takes is one wave of flaming arrows and that place is royally fucked.
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Old 07-22-2018, 04:46 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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On that note, wherever they set up shop, there should be a special Demon Hunter building. What should that be like and who else should share a neighborhood with that?
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Old 07-24-2018, 08:55 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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I was asked to comment in this thing... so I guess I will.

Background

The Night Elf tactic going back to Cataclysm appears to be to allow the enemy into the territory the Night Elves are defending, and to proceed to defeat them in detail, striking from ambush from forested locations and applying large concentrations where necessary. The screenshots I have of post burning content aren't enough to comment on fully, but they do seem to show this idea. So I will assume that the Night Elves use this tactic to reassert control over Darkshore and parts of Ashenvale.

I'm going to also assume that the Cenarion Circle as we know it is doomed. At this stage, with the massive loss of life implied by Teldrassil's destruction, I would expect the Horde members of the circle to be given this ultimatum by their numerically superior Night Elf colleagues - surrender or die. The ensuing druidic bloodbath is a mess. There are many Night Elves who won't kill former colleagues just because they're Tauren are Trolls. There are a number of Horde druids who object so strongly to what happened, that they actually join with the Kaldorei. The Wardens are brought in to quell the situation, and a month after the burning, the Cenarion Circle is a firmly Kaldorei organization. Even the sympathizers are treated as potential spies by the watchers and are accordingly, rounded up and killed.

Now, going back as far as Vanilla, there has been a small community of gnomes that has advocated for the Night Elves to adopt magic and technology to protect their forests. We saw them helping to strike out against the venture company in Stonetalon, and their influence exploded in Cataclysm - with them appearing at Stardust Spire, and in the Stonetalon Mountains once more. By now, as the Night Elves encounter questions of where to evacuate the civilian population to and how to supply isolated sentinel groups all over the north of the continent, their suggestions begin to be taken seriously. We'll call the lead gnomish advisory engineer Dr. Otto von Otto.

Barrownaar

In terms of the location and structure of the intended refuge, two thoughts come to mind. One: Mount Hyjal is one of the most easily defensible, and now least contested points on the continent. Two: that whole city in a mountain idea that the Dwarves had going on worked pretty well. The Wardens volunteer their old barrow prisons - which are rapidly transformed by druidic woodshifting - into the city that will jokingly (at first) be called "Barrownaar".

One of the major points of the city is to act as a sort of railway hub for an idea that Dr. Otto thought up - excavating a network of tunnels between those barrow deeps and others that can be quickly closed off in case of attack, but can be used to quickly ferry soldiers and supplies to threatened sectors. The actual rail design is simple: there is a double-railed track and a groove for an overhead hook. Single cars, shaped of wood and consisting entirely of passenger and cargo space (no engine), are primarily used, but two or three could be linked together if needed. The cars are propelled with living roots that poke down into the cavern at certain intervals. They grasp a part of the car and send it hurtling down the track, and the next ones down the line push it along in a similar fashion. In time, tunnels like these will be used to supply barrow dens as far east as Dor'danil, but the first one is used to link four growing "quarters" of the city, loosely arranged into something of an oval, arrayed around the surface entrance of the city. Each quarter is capable of being sealed off from the others and from the center in the event of a successful attack, but the area around the entrance is the most well defended - mostly by treants, large roots that mostly lie dormant, but can be agitated to thrash around the chamber, and arrow slits, accessible from small defense tunnels that extend in from the surrounding quarters.

The Chamber of Spiders

The Wardens have long designated some sections of their dens to hold spiders. Spider meat is rich in nutrients, and most people can't tell it apart from crab - not that Kaldorei would much care, they make kebobs from the stuff. In the past, Wardens would sometimes leave prisoners among the sacs of eggs waiting to be hatched, and now, this chamber is the usual destination for enemy war dead, and enemy prisoners, whose meat is useful in keeping the spider population where it needs to be (the spiders tend to prefer live prey). When needed, the spiders are then hunted to feed the city.

Nothing is wasted when a prisoner is sent to be fed to the spiders. Their clothing and any jewelry is taken and reused for something else. Accordingly, in addition to the hunter trainer, the stable, and the cooking profession trainer, you will also find leatherworking trainer, the archaeology trainer, and the jewelcrafting trainer in this quarter.

The Chamber of Gears

Despite their enthusiasm for large machines, the gnomish advisors quickly learned that steam tanks, gyrocopters, and walkers didn't really fit with the way that Kaldorei fight wars. Accordingly, the gnomish advisors and a growing number of curious acolytes have honeycombed small workshops throughout a section of the old barrow dens that are mostly used to create small devices such as gnomecorders, rangefinders, and most of all, bombs - because sentinels are turning out to be excellent saboteurs and sappers.

The quarter doubles as something of a trade hub, given that the underground network of tunnels runs through Nighthaven, and from there, out to a port that was hastily constructed after Lor'danel was retaken. This quarter therefore also plays host to the city's foreign population, including the Order of the Purifier - a paladin order made up of Theramore survivors, veterans of the various conflicts in the barrens, and Silver Hand veterans named after Delgren the Purifier - the Silver Hand Paladin slain by the Horde during the last war.

The Paladin class trainer, the auction house, and the barber shop, as well as the engineering, mining, and blacksmithing trainers can all be found here.

The Chamber of the Betrayer

This chamber is where Illidan was imprisoned, and under the pressures of war, it has been converted into a haven for those elements of Kaldorei society that they may not have appreciated in the past, but are forced to deal with now. This means the Demon Hunters and the Highborne - both under the watchful gaze of the Wardens, who maintain a significant presence here. They have, for now, tolerated the presence of warlocks here as well, but under the condition that their activities, like the activities of the others who reside in this chamber, are carefully and strictly monitored.

Rogue, Mage, Demon Hunter, and Warlock trainers, as well as the enchanting and tailoring profession trainers and the transmogrification npcs, can all be found here.

The Chamber of Elune

Despite the lack of resources and space, it was nevertheless deemed important to build a new temple to the goddess Elune. Arranged around a moonwell, this chamber is a faithful recreation of the one that stood in Darnassus, except it has gained something of a "basement" level - where the Cenarion circle has established itself. If Tyrande and Malfurion return to Kalimdor, this is where they will probably run the nation from.

The priest, druid, and shaman trainers can be found here, as can the reputation and mount vendors.
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Old 07-25-2018, 07:05 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I was asked to comment in this thing... so I guess I will.

Background

The Night Elf tactic going back to Cataclysm appears to be to allow the enemy into the territory the Night Elves are defending, and to proceed to defeat them in detail, striking from ambush from forested locations and applying large concentrations where necessary. The screenshots I have of post burning content aren't enough to comment on fully, but they do seem to show this idea. So I will assume that the Night Elves use this tactic to reassert control over Darkshore and parts of Ashenvale.

I'm going to also assume that the Cenarion Circle as we know it is doomed. At this stage, with the massive loss of life implied by Teldrassil's destruction, I would expect the Horde members of the circle to be given this ultimatum by their numerically superior Night Elf colleagues - surrender or die. The ensuing druidic bloodbath is a mess. There are many Night Elves who won't kill former colleagues just because they're Tauren are Trolls. There are a number of Horde druids who object so strongly to what happened, that they actually join with the Kaldorei. The Wardens are brought in to quell the situation, and a month after the burning, the Cenarion Circle is a firmly Kaldorei organization. Even the sympathizers are treated as potential spies by the watchers and are accordingly, rounded up and killed.

Now, going back as far as Vanilla, there has been a small community of gnomes that has advocated for the Night Elves to adopt magic and technology to protect their forests. We saw them helping to strike out against the venture company in Stonetalon, and their influence exploded in Cataclysm - with them appearing at Stardust Spire, and in the Stonetalon Mountains once more. By now, as the Night Elves encounter questions of where to evacuate the civilian population to and how to supply isolated sentinel groups all over the north of the continent, their suggestions begin to be taken seriously. We'll call the lead gnomish advisory engineer Dr. Otto von Otto.

Barrownaar

In terms of the location and structure of the intended refuge, two thoughts come to mind. One: Mount Hyjal is one of the most easily defensible, and now least contested points on the continent. Two: that whole city in a mountain idea that the Dwarves had going on worked pretty well. The Wardens volunteer their old barrow prisons - which are rapidly transformed by druidic woodshifting - into the city that will jokingly (at first) be called "Barrownaar".

One of the major points of the city is to act as a sort of railway hub for an idea that Dr. Otto thought up - excavating a network of tunnels between those barrow deeps and others that can be quickly closed off in case of attack, but can be used to quickly ferry soldiers and supplies to threatened sectors. The actual rail design is simple: there is a double-railed track and a groove for an overhead hook. Single cars, shaped of wood and consisting entirely of passenger and cargo space (no engine), are primarily used, but two or three could be linked together if needed. The cars are propelled with living roots that poke down into the cavern at certain intervals. They grasp a part of the car and send it hurtling down the track, and the next ones down the line push it along in a similar fashion. In time, tunnels like these will be used to supply barrow dens as far east as Dor'danil, but the first one is used to link four growing "quarters" of the city, loosely arranged into something of an oval, arrayed around the surface entrance of the city. Each quarter is capable of being sealed off from the others and from the center in the event of a successful attack, but the area around the entrance is the most well defended - mostly by treants, large roots that mostly lie dormant, but can be agitated to thrash around the chamber, and arrow slits, accessible from small defense tunnels that extend in from the surrounding quarters.

The Chamber of Spiders

The Wardens have long designated some sections of their dens to hold spiders. Spider meat is rich in nutrients, and most people can't tell it apart from crab - not that Kaldorei would much care, they make kebobs from the stuff. In the past, Wardens would sometimes leave prisoners among the sacs of eggs waiting to be hatched, and now, this chamber is the usual destination for enemy war dead, and enemy prisoners, whose meat is useful in keeping the spider population where it needs to be (the spiders tend to prefer live prey). When needed, the spiders are then hunted to feed the city.

Nothing is wasted when a prisoner is sent to be fed to the spiders. Their clothing and any jewelry is taken and reused for something else. Accordingly, in addition to the hunter trainer, the stable, and the cooking profession trainer, you will also find leatherworking trainer, the archaeology trainer, and the jewelcrafting trainer in this quarter.

The Chamber of Gears

Despite their enthusiasm for large machines, the gnomish advisors quickly learned that steam tanks, gyrocopters, and walkers didn't really fit with the way that Kaldorei fight wars. Accordingly, the gnomish advisors and a growing number of curious acolytes have honeycombed small workshops throughout a section of the old barrow dens that are mostly used to create small devices such as gnomecorders, rangefinders, and most of all, bombs - because sentinels are turning out to be excellent saboteurs and sappers.

The quarter doubles as something of a trade hub, given that the underground network of tunnels runs through Nighthaven, and from there, out to a port that was hastily constructed after Lor'danel was retaken. This quarter therefore also plays host to the city's foreign population, including the Order of the Purifier - a paladin order made up of Theramore survivors, veterans of the various conflicts in the barrens, and Silver Hand veterans named after Delgren the Purifier - the Silver Hand Paladin slain by the Horde during the last war.

The Paladin class trainer, the auction house, and the barber shop, as well as the engineering, mining, and blacksmithing trainers can all be found here.

The Chamber of the Betrayer

This chamber is where Illidan was imprisoned, and under the pressures of war, it has been converted into a haven for those elements of Kaldorei society that they may not have appreciated in the past, but are forced to deal with now. This means the Demon Hunters and the Highborne - both under the watchful gaze of the Wardens, who maintain a significant presence here. They have, for now, tolerated the presence of warlocks here as well, but under the condition that their activities, like the activities of the others who reside in this chamber, are carefully and strictly monitored.

Rogue, Mage, Demon Hunter, and Warlock trainers, as well as the enchanting and tailoring profession trainers and the transmogrification npcs, can all be found here.

The Chamber of Elune

Despite the lack of resources and space, it was nevertheless deemed important to build a new temple to the goddess Elune. Arranged around a moonwell, this chamber is a faithful recreation of the one that stood in Darnassus, except it has gained something of a "basement" level - where the Cenarion circle has established itself. If Tyrande and Malfurion return to Kalimdor, this is where they will probably run the nation from.

The priest, druid, and shaman trainers can be found here, as can the reputation and mount vendors.
In regards to the Cenarion Circle: savage (and I think that was the point). That said I agree, it’s days as a neutral organization need to be over.

All in all, this is exactly the sort of post I was hoping to see. May all look upon this and rejoice.
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Old 06-09-2019, 12:07 PM
Karen Karen is offline

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I think night elves should reconquer all their lands, after that they should either, rebuild Eldre'thalas city or build a new one in Hyjal or Ashenvale.

City should be very big like Suramar or Boralus. With a lot of nelf architecture, trees and stuff, like a big Darnassus. A new temple of the moon for the sisterhood, a zone for druids full of wooden and trees, a zone for highborne with some old empire assets stuff (same with the temple), and a zone for warden like the vault of warden, then zone for sentinels, and finally a zone for for civillians with houses and where proffesion trainers are. Put a tree of eternity at the center of new nelf city.
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Old 06-10-2019, 01:55 AM
rshll rshll is offline

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Twilight Grove in the Duskwood. They would plant a new tree there that would transform the whole region into something more Ashenvale-like.

Also it might create some internal conflict with local humans making them leave the area.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:31 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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If they stay in Kalimdor like they should, Proper city in Hyjal or Moonglade

if EK, I'd actually vote setting up around Seradane.
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:29 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Twilight Grove in the Duskwood. They would plant a new tree there that would transform the whole region into something more Ashenvale-like.

Also it might create some internal conflict with local humans making them leave the area.
I'm just going to say again that any outcome that involves the Kaldorei forever fleeing Kalimdor with their collective tail between their legs and straight into the status of a human vassal state is in my opinion, an unacceptable outcome - and I am aware that said opinion is rather widely shared among those who have a substantial investment in the race.

That's not "humans bad". It's a recognition that one of the best parts of the playable race was and is their distance, uniqueness, and independence from the rest of the Alliance. In the scramble for "consequences", I think some people have forgotten that - and have taken to proposing changes that would erase the good that remains.
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:28 PM
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Since I think next expansion is a soft reboot with the world renewed after a short timeskip (around 10 years), I think there's a high chance of we seeing the new Night elf capital then.

I kinda wish the night elves split. Not all return to Kalimdor. Some settle in Duskwood, now that most of the inhabitants are dead anyway, and make a town in Twilight Grove.

Others are offered a home in Gilneas' Blackwald.

But the main Kaldorei branch make its "new" capital in Nighthaven/Moonglade, with Darkshore as their main zone. The Cenarion Circle base moves to Hyjal, where they watch over Nordrassil.
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Old 06-11-2019, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I'm just going to say again that any outcome that involves the Kaldorei forever fleeing Kalimdor with their collective tail between their legs and straight into the status of a human vassal state is in my opinion, an unacceptable outcome - and I am aware that said opinion is rather widely shared among those who have a substantial investment in the race.

That's not "humans bad". It's a recognition that one of the best parts of the playable race was and is their distance, uniqueness, and independence from the rest of the Alliance. In the scramble for "consequences", I think some people have forgotten that - and have taken to proposing changes that would erase the good that remains.
In my head, if they settle down in Duskwood they can push out the local humans and then expand to Stranglethorn and Swamps and even terraform it into lush Kalimdorish forests, starting to compete with Stormwind over these territories. Meaning that we might get some internal conflict between Alliance races.

While Tyrande and her night warriors are doing their thing in Kalimdor, civilians create their own new kingdom here, sort of a new Quel'Thalas.
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Old 06-11-2019, 05:06 PM
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Sorry, that idea is awful. I actually think night elves should reconquer all their lands and build a new and bigger city in Kalimdor. I don't want them to be so close to humans, the night elves don't need the alliance.


I would like if map ends like this. Night elves killing the horde in their lands and reconquering everything, horde can keep azshara.

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Old 06-11-2019, 06:17 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Night Elf Icon (War3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen View Post
I think night elves should reconquer all their lands, after that they should either, rebuild Eldre'thalas city or build a new one in Hyjal or Ashenvale.

City should be very big like Suramar or Boralus. With a lot of nelf architecture, trees and stuff, like a big Darnassus. A new temple of the moon for the sisterhood, a zone for druids full of wooden and trees, a zone for highborne with some old empire assets stuff (same with the temple), and a zone for warden like the vault of warden, then zone for sentinels, and finally a zone for for civillians with houses and where proffesion trainers are. Put a tree of eternity at the center of new nelf city.
Welcome Karen, and thank you for bringing back this thread. I like your ideas. Highborne section would probably have both mage and Demonhunter assets, maybe even their own portal room. Though something occurs to me........

At this point, class trainers are no longer relevant to the game. They don't teach you abilities. They don't help you retrain your talents. They don't serve any purpose. I wonder if some new purpose could be found for them.

Anyways, I'm getting off track. On track, I have to admit, there's a part of me that doesn't want the Night Elves to build a city. It's not that I don't want them to retake their homeland. It's that I don't really feel that urban life suits them. In Warcraft 3, their buildings were trees who could uproot themselves and move half the base to another location. I kinda like the idea of the Night Elves being nomads.

That said, I think there's a compromise to be had from our stowaways from Draenor. What if the Botaani who snuck back with the Mag'har create a World Tree Smoremound? Night Elf Druids could take it over and keep it in check. The city could be part of it. That said, I dislike the whole land being on top of the tree thing. I'd rather their homes be built into the tree. Maybe that's just me.

Anyway, have the new World Tree Sporemound patrol along that territory that you outlined, crushing any Horde that it sees.
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Old 06-11-2019, 06:52 PM
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I don't see the night elves taking a lot of Kalimdor. They'll be squeezed north, Myst Isles will have fallen to the Horde and the Draenei moved from there, Ashenvale is contested.

The counterpart will be Quel'thalas squeezed by Alliance in EK.
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Old 06-11-2019, 09:34 PM
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It's that I don't really feel that urban life suits them. In Warcraft 3, their buildings were trees who could uproot themselves and move half the base to another location. I kinda like the idea of the Night Elves being nomads.
No. The things you see in the RTS game are ancients and you use them as part of your military operations, it doesn't mean in anyway they are or were nomads. The only time they lived in some kind of "hidden life" was when they were at war with the satyrs 7,000 years ago (they used to live in raynewood and moved because satyrs and demons outnumbered them)

But after that war they solidified as a sedentary society. In warcraft III multiplayer game you have moonwells and the hunters lodge, these are not transportable buildings. I also want you to remember how they had a big prison system guarded by watchers or the fact they literally had villages that were being destroyed by naga. They had big villages (for rts standard) and even had a harbor city (Nendis) , they even got assets for houses and misc stuff in tft.

They need an actual new city because night elves are not "savage" as civilization, grom called them savage maybe because the way they fight or dress. But their simple way of life is only by choice. They're still the same pre-sundering elves, just changed their culture because they wanted so, not because they can't do better or can't live in cities. They always lived in cities and towns.

I think a new nelf capital would need a district for every group, a terrace for sentinels, a temple of the moon for the priestess, a magic district for highborne (could be like old empire themed, greek styled like the temple of the moon), a warden zone with warden architecture and themes (rogues could be there). The tree zone could be for druids, then the civillian zone with the classic night elf houses. The only thing im not sure is if adding a illidari small zone, as an embassy or they wanting to gain trust of nelf society.

But, I think, night elves deserve and need a new capital. I highly doubt blizzard would do it given the treatment they give to night elves, but eh, I can dream.

Last edited by Karen; 06-11-2019 at 09:37 PM..
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:32 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Well, let me round up a few things:

Quote:
I kinda wish the night elves split. Not all return to Kalimdor. Some settle in Duskwood, now that most of the inhabitants are dead anyway, and make a town in Twilight Grove.

Others are offered a home in Gilneas' Blackwald.

But the main Kaldorei branch make its "new" capital in Nighthaven/Moonglade, with Darkshore as their main zone. The Cenarion Circle base moves to Hyjal, where they watch over Nordrassil.
I don't understand where this odd fetish for having a huge Night Elf settlement in the middle of Stormwind's heartland. I feel like you're trying to compromise here, but could you please explain what the value is in having such a large settlement (and split) at all?

Quote:
I don't see the night elves taking a lot of Kalimdor. They'll be squeezed north, Myst Isles will have fallen to the Horde and the Draenei moved from there, Ashenvale is contested.

The counterpart will be Quel'thalas squeezed by Alliance in EK.
Ultimately we don't know what Blizzard will do - and either way, this thread isn't concerned with that. So is this something that you want to have happen? If so, why?

Quote:
Anyways, I'm getting off track. On track, I have to admit, there's a part of me that doesn't want the Night Elves to build a city. It's not that I don't want them to retake their homeland. It's that I don't really feel that urban life suits them. In Warcraft 3, their buildings were trees who could uproot themselves and move half the base to another location. I kinda like the idea of the Night Elves being nomads.

That said, I think there's a compromise to be had from our stowaways from Draenor. What if the Botaani who snuck back with the Mag'har create a World Tree Smoremound? Night Elf Druids could take it over and keep it in check. The city could be part of it. That said, I dislike the whole land being on top of the tree thing. I'd rather their homes be built into the tree. Maybe that's just me.
Given the Night Elf reliance on moonwells, them being nomads doesn't make a ton of sense to me. Yes they use guerilla tactics and could move their bases (to a relative degree), but as with the StarCraft Terrans, this function was never so versatile that you could truly move entire bases - it was more to support the idea of re-using buildings and putting your production facilities in interesting and tactical locations.

As to the idea of putting buildings IN the tree - now that's something I can get behind wholeheartedly. That's even something you could do with the remains of Teldrassil. If you've ever seen a cactus skeleton, put something like one of those in there - except represent them as new growths and honeycomb them with residences, stores, larger buildings, etc. Sort of like a natural version of Deus Ex's Hengsha Island, only perhaps a bit narrower and consistent of multiple levels rather than just two.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:14 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I'm with Kya in that anything that has the nelfs lose Kalimdor essentially destroys them as a race and sidelines them forever.

I would still like to see the effects of nelf settlements in other parts of the world growing even if their main powerbase stays in Kalimdor though.

And I still think the nelfs should have control of Desolace and influence the Centaur, Harpies, and Quillboar.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:57 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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This convo makes me a bit sad. There had been numerous changes in characterization between Reign of Chaos and The Frozen Throne for the night elves, yet so many conflate the two, to the point that most suggestions are based on either The Frozen Throne or Vanilla or both. And it saddens me, because I'd love to see the Reign of Chaos version back.

Last edited by Marthen; 06-13-2019 at 02:46 AM..
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:10 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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>Reign of Chaos

So off to the forest nearest EK forest with them?
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Old 06-12-2019, 01:19 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Huh, no.

I am talking about shadowy spirits of the forest guarding and prowling in the lands of Northern Kalimdor. No large urban centres, just countless small villages and communities doting the forest, settlements predominantly made of ageless living tree creatures known as the ancients and structures of living stone and wood. No man-made roads, just forest pathways, no grand temples, just simple altars and moonwells., no palaces or town halls, just communities living around ancients through which they draw the powers of the World Tree. No strict, imperial/absolute hierarchy, a rather atomized society instead, with several groups (the Sentinels, the Watchers, the Druids) existing in parallel to each other, each with their own hierarchy, leaders, duties, function. No organized monotheism, instead various cults with more or less influence.
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:10 PM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
This convo makes me a bit sad. There had been numerous changes in characterization between Reign of Chaos and The Frozen Throne for the night elves, yet so many conflagrate the two, to the point that most suggestions are based on either The Frozen Throne or Vanilla or both. And it saddens me, because I'd love to see the Reign of Chaos version back.
Interesting, could you name the changes between the RoC and TFT?
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Old 06-12-2019, 03:12 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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There are three principal differences I can think of;

1) The structure of their settlements and living.

Like I explained above, in Reign of Chaos, Night Elf settlements were primarily made of ancients and structures of living wood and stone, with trees of life/ages/eternity standing at their center, providing a link between the community and the World Tree. It's mentioned in the manual, it's mentioned in Enemies at the Gate. Furthermore, each time we see a night elf settlement called village in Reign of Chaos, like the Shadowleaf settlement in Daughters of the Moon, it is made of ancients and living structures.

On the other hand, the first night elf mission of The Frozen Throne shows us a completely different image. There are villages that look very similar to night elf villages, only night elf styled (the models are technically reskinned high elf RoC models), there are no ancients, no moon wells, and when such settlements appear, they are only called bases.

2. The existence of non-combatants.

While not explicit in the game itself, it's rather implied there are no non-combatant (you could also say civilian, but that term might not be precise, depends) night elves, and it is straight out confirmed in the Reight on Chaos artbook. The males are the druids, the females are the warriors.

On the other hand, in The Frozen Throne, we can see non-combatant villagers in those high elf-esque villages.

3. The stance towards magic.

In Reign of Chaos, we can see the night elves having a very, very negative stance towards magic and being distrustful of the high elves, to the point that the early RPG described them as hateful towards it and early promotional material described their negative feelings towards Arcane and the high elves as the main reason for their negative stance to the Alliance.

Now, compare that with The Frozen Throne. Not only are they much more tolerant of both, Tyrande even speaks to Kael, who according to the manual wields magic similar to demonic, as if he were her longtime friend. That's a stark difference in characterization.
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Old 06-12-2019, 04:32 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
There are three principal differences I can think of;

1) The structure of their settlements and living.

Like I explained above, in Reign of Chaos, Night Elf settlements were primarily made of ancients and structures of living wood and stone, with trees of life/ages/eternity standing at their center, providing a link between the community and the World Tree. It's mentioned in the manual, it's mentioned in Enemies at the Gate. Furthermore, each time we see a night elf settlement called village in Reign of Chaos, like the Shadowleaf settlement in Daughters of the Moon, it is made of ancients and living structures.

On the other hand, the first night elf mission of The Frozen Throne shows us a completely different image. There are villages that look very similar to night elf villages, only night elf styled (the models are technically reskinned high elf RoC models), there are no ancients, no moon wells, and when such settlements appear, they are only called bases.

2. The existence of non-combatants.

While not explicit in the game itself, it's rather implied there are no non-combatant (you could also say civilian, but that term might not be precise, depends) night elves, and it is straight out confirmed in the Reight on Chaos artbook. The males are the druids, the females are the warriors.

On the other hand, in The Frozen Throne, we can see non-combatant villagers in those high elf-esque villages.

3. The stance towards magic.

In Reign of Chaos, we can see the night elves having a very, very negative stance towards magic and being distrustful of the high elves, to the point that the early RPG described them as hateful towards it and early promotional material described their negative feelings towards Arcane and the high elves as the main reason for their negative stance to the Alliance.

Now, compare that with The Frozen Throne. Not only are they much more tolerant of both, Tyrande even speaks to Kael, who according to the manual wields magic similar to demonic, as if he were her longtime friend. That's a stark difference in characterization.
Granted, the early RPG also more or less conflated Arcane Magic with Demon Worship. Fel and Arcane were more or less the same thing. RoC kinda implied that as well. Perhaps it’s a matter of two sides of the same coin.
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