Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-03-2015, 05:54 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,551

PvP Symbol - Alliance Highlords of Azeroth

Blizz seems dead set on this nostalgia train, although they can't seem to help tweaking it. If we're going to go look at the orcs in history, I'd say humans also diserve some.

So if we gave humans the WoD treatment, how would you want it. How would you characterize them? For instance:

We could pull the timey-wimey stuff that WoD pulled, bringing back Trollbane, Uther the Lightbringer, Daelin, and even Lothar.

That said, we don't have to. Humans actually have living (albeit missing) people who can fill roles, such as Danath, Turalyon, Calia, etc.

Beyond just the leaders, is there a way you'd like to see it executed? WoD went out of it's way to give each clan it's own brand of #Savage. So how would you culturally distinguish re-emergent human nations? I like the idea of Kul'Tiras being somewhat Venician, and part of me likes to think of Stromgarde as Spartan, but that may not be right.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-03-2015, 06:03 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

Elune
Drusus's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Greymane's Offensive
Posts: 8,699

Default

Stromgarde/Arathi is closer to Anglo-Saxon England. I never, ever, understood where people keep getting the Spartan thing from other than them wearing red armour.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feltongue View Post
you're the edgemaster 9000 with the leet memes who's close second to Gurzog in shitposting.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-03-2015, 06:05 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

Banished
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 9,773

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Stromgarde/Arathi is closer to Anglo-Saxon England. I never, ever, understood where people keep getting the Spartan thing from other than them wearing red armour.
Wait, wat? Seriously?

How in God's name does anyone get "Spartans" from ANYTHING in WoW outside of -maybe- some of the Orcish Warrior culture?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-03-2015, 06:05 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,551

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Stromgarde/Arathi is closer to Anglo-Saxon England. I never, ever, understood where people keep getting the Spartan thing from other than them wearing red armour.
Probably the warlike nature immediately makes people think of spartans, but I wouldn't press it. Arathi highlands is much more evocative of the setting you described, so I'm going to concur with you. Care to elaborate on how you'd portray them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
Wait, wat? Seriously?

How in God's name does anyone get "Spartans" from ANYTHING in WoW outside of -maybe- some of the Orcish Warrior culture?
Wait, what? Where do you get Spartans from Orcs? Orcs are nowhere near regimented enough to be Spartans. Yes, they were brutal, but not at all savage.

I'll concur that Stromgarde isn't spartan, but from there I'm still trying to work on making them culturally distinct from your average medieval fantasy tropes.

Last edited by Menel'dirion; 06-03-2015 at 06:08 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-03-2015, 06:22 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

Elune
Ma Caque Attaque's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: In your mind
Posts: 12,687

Default

Well, would we consider these guys to be the "Evil" versions of their MU counterparts?

When it comes to Stromgarde I look at more of a Scottish Highlands type of vibe. If Blizzard wanted to put them in kilts, I wouldn't stop them.

Kul Tiras as Venice seems to be the most popular idea when it comes to representing them.

And that's pretty much it since the other human kingdoms (except Gilneas) are well represented in game.

The problem is when we get into the spirit of it. WoD, for all it's faults didn't present the orcs in a new light. These weren't the MU-orcs remixed. At their core, they were still the MU-orcs, the biggest differences being that they were alive and not being lead by the BL until 6.2.

For something like that to work, say turning the human kingdoms evil... I dunno, it doesn't have the same resenence.

But if it was saving Lordaeron from the Scourge, or saving the AU-Azeroth from the Fel Iron Horde and Burning Legion.

Now that would be fun and allow Blizz to hit the retro train.

But if it plays out like WoD has played out then we already know how the expac is going to end.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-03-2015, 07:11 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

Banished
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 9,773

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Wait, what? Where do you get Spartans from Orcs? Orcs are nowhere near regimented enough to be Spartans. Yes, they were brutal, but not at all savage.
That's why I said "some" - I get the vibe of the Spartan's commitment to battle and "beautiful" combat from WarCraft's Orcs. Not a mirror image of course, Orcs are far too brutal for that, but there's some sense of it there.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-03-2015, 07:22 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,551

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Well, would we consider these guys to be the "Evil" versions of their MU counterparts?

When it comes to Stromgarde I look at more of a Scottish Highlands type of vibe. If Blizzard wanted to put them in kilts, I wouldn't stop them.

Kul Tiras as Venice seems to be the most popular idea when it comes to representing them.

And that's pretty much it since the other human kingdoms (except Gilneas) are well represented in game.

The problem is when we get into the spirit of it. WoD, for all it's faults didn't present the orcs in a new light. These weren't the MU-orcs remixed. At their core, they were still the MU-orcs, the biggest differences being that they were alive and not being lead by the BL until 6.2.

For something like that to work, say turning the human kingdoms evil... I dunno, it doesn't have the same resenence.

But if it was saving Lordaeron from the Scourge, or saving the AU-Azeroth from the Fel Iron Horde and Burning Legion.

Now that would be fun and allow Blizz to hit the retro train.

But if it plays out like WoD has played out then we already know how the expac is going to end.
I see you're going with the AU Highlords Theory, in which case you do have a point.

However, if we go with the MIA in the MU theory, we don't have to go there. We had half an expansion where on the Horde side we actively aided the final boss. We could have that for the Alliance as well.

Imagine: heirs start coming out of the woodwork. Calia Menethil is woken from an enchanted sleep in a tower where she was preserved from the Scourge. Derek Proudmoore, long presumed dead, is found shipwrecked on an island. Danath comes home. Isiden Perenolde re-emerges. Together they consolidate to form a campain to restore the lost human kingdoms, which the Alliance actively supports.

Sylvanas doesn't care for this, and launches a seemingly unprovoked attack, restarting the faction War. Eventually this backfires and she is captured or killed, but not before declaring that she has discovered the truth.

Eventually, as the war presses on with possibly a few attempts at peace sabotaged, it comes to light that one or more (definitely not all) of these returned royals are possessed by Dread Lords. Actually, I want one of them to be Calia, but her true spirit is still wandering the Emerald Dream and helps you take her Dread Lord down. Not all of the DreadLords of Azeroth need to be killed. Some can be saved, and it would be better to capture anyway so that they can keep it from coming back.

That sound better to you?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-03-2015, 07:24 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is online now

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,162

Crossed Swords (War2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Stromgarde/Arathi is closer to Anglo-Saxon England. I never, ever, understood where people keep getting the Spartan thing from other than them wearing red armour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
Wait, wat? Seriously?

How in God's name does anyone get "Spartans" from ANYTHING in WoW outside of -maybe- some of the Orcish Warrior culture?
Sure. When I was in middle school in the '90s, I got Spartan vibes from Stromgarde because:

1) They have red armor.

2) They are the "warrior people" among the "civilized" faction. To the extent that, if you compare the Seven Kingdoms to the Ancient Greek City-States, Stromgarde is a shoe-in for Sparta.

3) Its description: "Situated amongst the foothills of the Alterac Mountains, Stromgarde serves as a sentinel against any invasion across the Orc-controlled borders of Khaz Modan." Deserved or not, the language of mountains and first-defence-line easily invokes thematics of Thermopylae. Or, at least it does when everything else is factored in. Combine with the idea that they delayed the Horde long enough for the Alliance to prepare itself, as stated in DotD... a novel I didn't even know about.

4) Despite being a military nation, there is a simplicity or poverty to their kingdom. Of all the six human capitals we see in WC and WCII, Stromgarde Keep is the only one that is actually a Keep instead of a Castle. Likewise in BtDP, the Stromgarde hero is a Footman instead of the more aristocratic Knight. As we know, frugality and self-denial are among the meanings of the word "spartan" today.

5) BtDP had them as one of the nations that splintered from the Alliance after the war, along with Gilneas. Gilneas already had an isolationist and nationalist stereotype. Now Stromgarde had it too, but it felt different since they served so prominently against the invaders before.

6) Both start with an "S" and have strong "R" sounds in the middle. Both consist of two sharp syllables. Laugh if you want, but it has a linguistic psychological effect.

7) The Arathi Highlands did not exist yet, not as they do now. Likewise was there no Stonehenge imagery in the lore yet, not in this part of the world.

8) There was not yet an Arathor history placing Strom as the primordial kingdom, allowing it to feel like a sort of Camelot.


I presume the last two numbers are why you feel that it invokes the Anglo-Saxons, in today's lore.


EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
That's why I said "some" - I get the vibe of the Spartan's commitment to battle and "beautiful" combat from WarCraft's Orcs. Not a mirror image of course, Orcs are far too brutal for that, but there's some sense of it there.
Exactly! All this about commitment to battle and beautiful combat, this was Stromgarde. And you didn't have "brutality" overtones, so it was closer to a mirror image than the orcs... who felt more like Vikings.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 06-03-2015 at 07:31 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-03-2015, 09:52 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

Eternal
MisterCrow's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 4,421

Default

The thing is that I don't think it's as straightforward to just go back to a point in time and change a few things while maintaining the same characters.

... though it occurs to me that if the Dark Portal was opened in Lordaeron rather than the Black Morass, that might be a way to do it. Because then you'd have all of the kings in one place, and you'd have Terenas immediately set out the call to the other kingdoms around him with an even greater sense of urgency than when the Grand Alliance came together after the fall of Stormwind.

Part of what you'd have to do, as well, is find out how to really differentiate each of the kings so they cut a unique profile. That piece of key art that showed Grom and the Warlords really gave you the sense that these guys all brought something unique to the table.
  • Grom is at the center of this. He's the unifying force, the Soul of the Iron Horde. It's his willpower that united them all.
  • Ner'zhul is the spiritual center of the Iron Horde. He brings a power that none of the other warlords can understand to bear on their enemies.
  • Kargath is the muscle. He's Grom's right hand man, and Kargath's hand is a weapon. Kargath HIMSELF is a weapon.
  • Blackhand is the Mechanic. He's building the war machine, so much that he himself has become a part of the machinery he's crafting.
  • Kilrogg is the savage. Everyone else is flexing the weapons they use (except Durotan, more on that later) and the weapon Kilrogg has got is some kind of spine or jawbone or something that looks like he just tore it off some bigger monster.
  • Durotan has his arms crossed. He's standing right next to Grom, he's got a big old axe on his belt, but he'd need that additional moment to draw the weapon and fight. This sets him apart from the other warlords even though he stands among them.
  • Gul'dan is on the outside of all this: he's the outcast, the one who insisted on joining the Legion despite not being able to get anyone else to sign on, and this is driven home more by his weapon being magic rather than an actual weapon in his hands. But as we all see in 6.2 he gets the last laugh.

So how do you do the same thing with the lords of the Seven Kingdoms?
  • Thoras Trollbane: His is the biggest silhouette in the picture. He's the Blackhand here, with a huge sword (Trol'kalar, runes and all) over his shoulders. Give him the look of a Scottish Highlander, scars, a kilt, everything to indicate he's both a brute and an aristocrat at once.
  • Terenas Menethil: He's close to the center if not the central figure himself. Sharp-eyed, cunning, but embodying the idea of a noble and wise king. The horned crown he wears should be the most prominent crown worn in the art. Like Grom, his hand rests on the hilt of a sword that's point-down out-of-frame.
  • Daelin Proudmoore: Stern, pragmatic, more comfortable in a naval uniform with a rapier at his side rather than any other finery. If Thoras is behind Terenas, framing the smaller king with his bulk, then Proudmoore is to Terenas' left, arms clasped behind his own straightened back, his countenance severe. You don't step wrong on the deck of the Admiral's ship.
  • Llane Wrynn: Easily the youngest king in the line-up, clad in golden armor bedecked with lions, Llane has the build of a warrior, second only to Thoras in how dangerous he looks in a fight. If Thoras is the highland king and Terenas the English monarch, Llane is Arthur on his quest for the Grail. His sword is in his hands, point-up, like he's just about to charge into the fight when the pose drops.
  • Genn Greymane: If there's someone who'd get into a contest with Proudmoore for who looks more likely to tear your head right off, it's Greymane. If Thoras is a bear then Greymane is a white wolf, middle-aged but still cutting a dangerous figure. He's perhaps the next most aristocratic of the kings after Terenas and Perenolde, his clothing fine but not ostentatious. Like Durotan, his arms are crossed, symbolizing his reticence at being part of this organization, but the hilts of swords are visible on his belt.
  • Antonidas: Moreso than many of the other kings, Antonidas has been well-portrayed in existing art. He cuts the appearance of the wizard-aristocrat, Merlin to Arthur. He's definitely also towards the outside of the image as well, staff in hand, magic coruscating around his slight figure.
  • Aiden Perenolde: Definitely a character on the edge of the portrait, looking like he'd just as easily run the minute the pose ends. Perenolde has none of the warrior brawn of Thoras or Greymane, none of the pragmatic menace of Proudmoore or mysticism of Antonidas, and none of the nobility of Terenas or Llane. His clothes are the finest but he doesn't appear to fill them well. He should contrast with the other kings just as readily as Gul'dan contrasts with the warlords, since he ends up serving a similar role, but without hardly any of the authentic menace that Gul'dan actually has. It's notable that he has no weapons on him but for the appearance of wealth.

...

Having written all of this out, I really want to commission this piece of artwork from someone now.
__________________
Lore Observation, Systems Design, and other science dropped at Power Word: Remix


Expect nothing and anything will surprise you.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-03-2015, 01:41 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

Arch-Druid
Siegrune's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,405

Default

We could have Lord Prestor control the Alliance, with Terenas as the nominal leader. Dalaran will have to be on our side though (like the Frostwolf Clan in WoD).

But it really shouldn't be done anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-03-2015, 01:47 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

Elune
Lord Grimtale's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Slaughtered Lamb
Posts: 22,046
BattleTag: Grimtale67#1407

Default

Stromgarde seem Spartan because of how their armor is designed too, but tbh WoW always gave me the impression that they were Celtic highlanders and rugged barbarians. Almost reminiscent of Braveheart in my mind.

I doubt an expansion like this will happen since I think they're burned on the time travel stuff, though. On the other hand maybe it would be something to consider in the future.

I'd love some good Seven Kingdoms stuff. How much do we know about them in comparison to all the big stuff revealed about the Orc clans in WoD?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-03-2015, 01:55 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

Elune
Lon-ami's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Spain
Posts: 12,548
BattleTag: Lonami#2916

Default

Suddenly, the Iron Horde manages to reactivate the Dark Portal, only that they don't link it to our Azeroth.

And in the other side, there's an army waiting.

An army led by...

MOTHERFUCKING KING ARTHAS MENETHIL



/Thread
__________________


Metzen: They are one of the ancient races of Northrend that we haven't spoken of before... because we hadn't made them up before. (laughter)

~Main: Expansion theorycrafting, Expansions list, The Age of Nightmare, Empire of the Tides (coming soon)~
~Fan ficton: Anachronos Journey: The Timeless Heir~ ~Geography of continents series: Old Kalimdor (original), Pandaria~
~Locations as zones series: Azjol-Nerub, Barrow Deeps, Zul'Aman, Demon Hunter zone, Caverns of Time~
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-03-2015, 02:00 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

Elune
SmokeBlader's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 30,980

Default

That would actually be...interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-03-2015, 03:14 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,551

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Stromgarde seem Spartan because of how their armor is designed too, but tbh WoW always gave me the impression that they were Celtic highlanders and rugged barbarians. Almost reminiscent of Braveheart in my mind.

I doubt an expansion like this will happen since I think they're burned on the time travel stuff, though. On the other hand maybe it would be something to consider in the future.

I'd love some good Seven Kingdoms stuff. How much do we know about them in comparison to all the big stuff revealed about the Orc clans in WoD?
Things to remember:
1. They may have started work on this expansion before they got burnt out on time travel (and they don't consider time travel to be the point of WoD anyway);

2. Everyone assumes it has to be AU, when we can probably scrounge up enough MIA MU monarchs to fill out the roster anyway and have it be more relevant.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-03-2015, 03:18 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

Eternal Watcher
Yaskaleh's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: The heart of Scania
Posts: 18,625
BattleTag: Yaskaleh#1817

Default

If they suddenly take the seven kingdoms and turn them lolevil I'm probably permanently out.
__________________

Say no to genocide!
Save the Nightborne!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-03-2015, 03:26 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

Site Staff - Admin
Shaman's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The Barrens
Posts: 12,447

Human Icon (War3)

I would really like to see an alternate First War expansion without the orcs where the human kingdoms are the antagonists. I don't want to do more time-travelling straight after Warlords of Draenor though.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-03-2015, 03:48 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is online now

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,162

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
Suddenly, the Iron Horde manages to reactivate the Dark Portal, only that they don't link it to our Azeroth.

And in the other side, there's an army waiting.

An army led by...

MOTHERFUCKING KING ARTHAS MENETHIL

/Thread
Spoiler: By the end of the expansion he culls AU Stormwind, enslaves Alexstrasza, and drinks Mannoroth's blood.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-03-2015, 03:54 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

Elune
ijffdrie's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: A rock of certainty amid an ocean of possibility
Posts: 15,788

Default

How about... evil alternate future alliance!

Won the second war, started the camps, but no rebellion. To offset costs, the orcs were put to work. Worked out pretty well, with the lethargy keeping them nice and docile. Unfortunately, there weren't that many orcs...

skip generation

skip generation

skip generation

The human kingdoms have become imperialists, spreading over the world and enslaving the locals. Dwarves plunder every titan vault they can find, now wielding technology from Ulduar they got after killing the keepers. The high elves provide the human colonies with magical slave bracers, in return getting vast riches and sources of magic. The discovery of Kalimdor led to conflicts with the night elves and their allies, becoming a full-blown war just by the time the player arrives.

Obviously, you can't cover all of Azeroth, so you'd have to go for North-central Kalimdor or Lordaeron. Would provide a nice excuse to create updated models of some of the architecture too.
__________________
This is not a signature.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-03-2015, 03:54 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

Master Worldbuilder
Anansi's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Dying World
Posts: 18,131

Orb of Lightning

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Spoiler: By the end of the expansion he culls AU Stormwind, enslaves Alexstrasza, and drinks Mannoroth's blood.
That would actually be a lot of fun.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-03-2015, 03:57 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

Eternal
Arashi's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 4,796

Default

Would make more sense if it was the MU empire. Because "Mah legacy/descendant"
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-03-2015, 04:02 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,906

Default

Rule 63 AU is the best AU.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-03-2015, 04:06 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

Elune
ijffdrie's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: A rock of certainty amid an ocean of possibility
Posts: 15,788

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Rule 63 AU is the best AU.
The word you're looking for is dullest.
__________________
This is not a signature.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-03-2015, 04:09 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,906

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
The word you're looking for is dullest.
You're just jealous because you're genderless.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-03-2015, 04:10 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

Elune
ijffdrie's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: A rock of certainty amid an ocean of possibility
Posts: 15,788

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
You're just jealous because you're genderless.
My hosts aren't.


Regardless, the added gameplay of reversing the genders is kinda zero. Unless we turn WoW into my kinda game.
__________________
This is not a signature.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-03-2015, 04:21 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,906

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
My hosts aren't.


Regardless, the added gameplay of reversing the genders is kinda zero. Unless we turn WoW into my kinda game.
Variana marries Deathwing.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
chieftains of kalimdor, high thanes of khaz modan, orks and hoomans, warlocks of draenor

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.