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  #26  
Old 08-20-2007, 05:52 AM
Timolas Timolas is offline


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What annoys me about changes is when they need a new story invented for them to make sense. They only make sense because Blizzard creates something to support that, but at the same time that makes all the old stuff outdated and invalid.
I'm all for progression as long as it's done properly. Unfortunately, from my point of view, I don't think that it is done as well as it could be in most cases.

For example, it is said that the Alliance didn't show interest in helping the Blood Elves get to Outland. That was invented to support them going with the Horde.
What the hell is the reasoning behind the Alliance not wanting to help them. We can speculate, sure, and even draw some sensible conclusions, such as the use of demonic magics. However that is just us pulling together canonical facts and putting them together. Just guessing.

The story would probably be way better off if it was managed by one guy who knows what he is doing, who has his story, his one opinion on how to move it forward etc. In Blizzard's case there are the game mechanics, playerbase, and a whole story team with different ideas and motives, creating problems more often than not.
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  #27  
Old 08-20-2007, 12:27 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Good one Flame, good one. I love how I'm wrong for saying that the majority of troll kind or the undead are evil when all I've done is quote Blizzard material.

Anyways, I'm not pro Alliance. You may think this because I like to point out what the Horde has done in the past, this is not me bashing the Horde. I was a solid Horde fan during WarII and WarIII. That is until everyone seemed obessed with the idea that the orcs were always the good guys, and how the evil humans were unjustly hating them. I also do believe I've defended the Horde before on several occasions.
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  #28  
Old 08-20-2007, 12:50 PM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

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I've heard everything you have to say thus far, Ken, and you're not saying anything new. You have not simply said that "the majority of undead are evil." You have explicitly stated that evil is fundamental to undead nature, that the process of becoming undead automatically turns its victims into sadists, and that undead are "bathed in the shadow" regardless of their actions. With trolls, too, you have claimed that evil is innate; that being a troll, simply put, makes you evil.

And sure, you're not pro-Alliance. You like the Horde of Warcraft II. In fact, you wish everything Blizzard has done in the past 10 years should be undone and Warcraft should return to the era of "two factions battle for dominance...", as you're so fond of saying. Don't even try to contest this point. Your general stance on the Warcraft World is "stick with the tried and true; original is bad." That's precisely the problem.

Timolas: You're right that many explanations in the Warcraft Universe, particularly in recent months, have left much lacking or been complete non sequiturs. However, this is not the fault of fresh material. It's t he fault of poor storytelling. That's an entirely different problem.
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  #29  
Old 08-20-2007, 01:11 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Yup, most of what you said about my beliefs on the undead are true. As for trolls, when only about three tribes aren't pure out evil, I'de say that constitutes the majority of troll kind as evil.

Apparantly Blizzard shares my views on returning Warcraft to humans vs orcs.
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  #30  
Old 08-20-2007, 02:41 PM
Timolas Timolas is offline


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True Flame; though that's all I meant really. The fresh material could have a lot better storytelling to make it believable.
For example the Night Elves in the Ghostlands; that is without a doubt, quite obviously, simply implemented to make the Alliance seem like the guys working against the Blood Elves.
We have absolutely no idea why those Night Elves are there beyond spying. We don't know who sent them, their long term motives, etc. It's just something completely unexplained, poorly introduced and poorly executed that just makes me want to strangle somebody.
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  #31  
Old 08-20-2007, 03:15 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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To put it bluntly, Burning Crusade tried to be more "original" and look what happened. The fact is, people don't like original, it frightens them. Tried and true is what sells.
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  #32  
Old 08-20-2007, 06:51 PM
Rowan Seven Rowan Seven is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzuki View Post
As for trolls, when only about three tribes aren't pure out evil, I'de say that constitutes the majority of troll kind as evil.
Please keep in mind that of those three tribes, two of them are good without apparent outside racial influences (unless you want to argue that the Warcraft II Horde had a positive effect on the Revantusk), and the Zandalar are the ORIGINAL troll tribe. The Zandalar are an example of what trolls can be and accomplish when they pursue knowledge rather than conquest.

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Originally Posted by Kenzuki
To put it bluntly, Burning Crusade tried to be more "original" and look what happened. The fact is, people don't like original, it frightens them. Tried and true is what sells.
The flaw with "The Burning Crusade" isn't that it tried to be more original; the flaw with "The Burning Crusade" is the execution of the story. When "World of Warcraft" first shipped it was largely consistent with and faithfully continued and expanded the story established in Warcraft III. There were cracks, yes, but there were relatively small and could have been resolved. As the focus of the game shifted to raiding and what-not, though, these cracks became holes and what attempts to resolve them that Blizzard did make typically seemed either unsatisfactory or posed their own problems. For example, the "War of the Ancients" trilogy could have answered a lot of questions. Instead, it made things more confusing and created even more questions. This pattern continued into "The Burning Crusade" which is characterized by bursts of brilliant storytelling characteristic of Warcraft III and WoW when it first launched alongside either lackluster or dumbfounding developments. You free Teron Gorefiend? Awesome! You kill Teron Gorefiend in the Black Temple without a word of explanation? Eh?! Let's not even raise the matter of Medivh's Tower and Deadwind Pass...
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  #33  
Old 08-21-2007, 04:12 AM
Timolas Timolas is offline


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We have yet to understand how and with what the hell Lord Kazzak opened the Dark Portal. Or what on earth Kruul was looking for when he attacked the city. Aspect shards are what exactly?
Among other things.
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  #34  
Old 08-21-2007, 05:15 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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And who the hell is Prince Malchazzar?
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  #35  
Old 08-21-2007, 03:29 PM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzuki
Yup, most of what you said about my beliefs on the undead are true. As for trolls, when only about three tribes aren't pure out evil, I'de say that constitutes the majority of troll kind as evil.
See, herein lies the problem. Since you're either unable or unwilling to differentiate between "many X are Y" and "Y is part of the fundamental nature of X," let me spell out the difference for you.

The Statement "a large number black Americans have lower incomes and less education than the national average" is not racist propaganda. It is sad, but true. Compare that to the statement "black Americans are naturally lazy, which is why they have lower incomes." That is racist, and untrue. What you're doing is conflating comparable examples in Warcraft: you treat "there are many examples of evil trolls and undead" as synonymous with "trolls and undead are evil by nature. This fallacy is precisely where discrimination comes from in the real world, so you should be able to understand why I'm less than tolerant of it.

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Originally Posted by Kenzuki
Apparantly Blizzard shares my views on returning Warcraft to humans vs orcs.
For the record, I have never said that I am opposed to the idea of humans and orcs in conflict. If such a conflict carries the story in a new and interesting direction, I'm all for it. If, on the other hand it's an humans-good, orcs-bad carbon-copy of Warcraft I and II, I think we're better off without it.

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Originally Posted by Kenzuki
To put it bluntly, Burning Crusade tried to be more "original" and look what happened. The fact is, people don't like original, it frightens them. Tried and true is what sells.
As Rowan said, originality was hardly the problem with Burning Crusade. Granted, the expansion contained original threads that were handled poorly (Karazhan, for instance). But it contained just as many fresh ideas that were dynamic and inspiring: the feel of Zangarmarsh is unlike anything we've seen in Warcraft, or most fantasy, for that matter, and it's one of the most visually compelling regions in the game. The Black Temple Video, and the online story about the Broken, were both very solid all around. The scene of Illidan's death was fitting, if somewhat lacking in subtelty.

I could go on and on, or I could produce examples of new concepts from earlier games: Goblins. Dragons. The Burning Legion. Kalimdor. Night Elves. Tauren. The Forsaken. Dark Iron Dwarves. If Blizzard had decided from the beginning to stick with tried and true, the known world of Azeroth would consist of Elwynn Forest, the Swamp of Sorrows, and the Burning Steppes. The Alliance would not exist. I don't think that's what you or anybody else wants.
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  #36  
Old 08-21-2007, 03:40 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Somehow eqauting the walking dead to colored folks seems to be a warped comparasion.
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  #37  
Old 08-21-2007, 04:08 PM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

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Okay, so you can't grasp the meaning of an analogy. Fair enough.

All I said was that there is a big difference between noting a trait that exists in a certain population and assuming that the trait is innate. The fact that the two are frequently conflated, unfortunately, is the reason people discriminate. You're making this same unfortunate assumption when you turn the true statement "there are many evil, free-willed undead" into "undead are evil by nature."

PS: People haven't said "colored folks" for at least fifty years. Just thought I should let you know.
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  #38  
Old 08-21-2007, 04:16 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamestrider View Post
Okay, so you can't grasp the meaning of an analogy. Fair enough.

All I said was that there is a big difference between noting a trait that exists in a certain population and assuming that the trait is innate. The fact that the two are frequently conflated, unfortunately, is the reason people discriminate. You're making this same unfortunate assumption when you turn the true statement "there are many evil, free-willed undead" into "undead are evil by nature."

PS: People haven't said "colored folks" for at least fifty years. Just thought I should let you know.

Pardon me, where I grew up "colored folks" was the more respectable term for black people.

Let's do some logic here.

Certain beings have certain natures that they follow because it is a part of what they are. Trolls are up for debate as they are just a regular race like humans, orcs, etc. The Undead, are a magical creation, simular to an elemental or a demon and as such there are certain rules that apply to that being.

Demons and Undead are born from and are bathed in the Shadow, this is a fact. The Shadow represents all the negativity in the Universe, thus it's only natural that they lean towards negative actions as opposed to positive ones. you can't change this because to do so would require you to change the being's very nature.
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  #39  
Old 08-21-2007, 07:48 PM
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Well, lets see...

(incoming train of thought)

In WoW, we do have instances of species/races that are treated as, if not inherently evil, evil inclined. The Centaur, for example. Or Harpies. We have other races that are evil-by-taint. Even if they weren't evil, some corruption as effected the entire race, or the vast bulk of it, so they are treated as either evil, or homicidally insane.

So, the premise of a race, within the Warcraft system, being painted as "evil" isn't outlandish in and of itself.

The Forsaken are odd, because they were once human. It's safe to say that humanity in Warcraft isn't inherently good or evil, so any general evil within the Forsaken that may or may not exist isn't going to come from that aspect of them.

The undead of the scourge are certainly evil, at least, in so far as the Lich King is evil, as they are more or less extentions of his will.

But the Forsaken aren't controlled by the Lich King- they've had their wills returned to them. This leaves the question, is the state of undeath itself such that there is some ambient, inherent evil in it?

I don't think that there's enough lore to really answer that decisively one way or the other. Certainly, there are some bluntly evil members of Sylvanas's faction. Many of the members of the RAS are much more insidiously black hearted than anything the centaur or harpies throw at you. Some of these members weren't "evil" prior to their undeath, but came back from their slavery rather twisted. This suggests that there may be something to the argument that undeath itself carries with it a certain degree of inherent evil.

Of course, there's individuals like Bartholomew of the Argent Dawn who are indisputably "good". So, if there is some inherent evil in the Forsaken's undeath, it's not so great that it cannot be overcome, not so inherent that it will warp every personality it comes in contact with.

And because of that, we're left to questions of the individual personality and will. Yes, one could argue that, if the inherent evil exists, then forsaken would be slightly more likely to act in evil ways, but the same could be said of anyone under extreme hardship- the Defias reacted poorly to a non-magical hardship, and began to act in evil ways, but they are (mostly) human, and not inherently evil.

And certainly, the forsaken are no strangers to hardship. I mean, they all died already.

Thus, I don't believe it matters whether or not there is some inherent, magical evil left in the Forsaken, because it has the same effect as mundane hardship, if any. It may cause them more likely to act in evil ways, but, it does not dictate their actions, and they are able to, as individuals, reject such actions.

The practical effect is, if the inherent evil exists, it is a non-factor.
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  #40  
Old 08-22-2007, 03:14 AM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

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I've heard all of that before, Kenzuki. The fact is, Blizzard has never been clear on the precise magical nature of undeath. Some people on these forums, like Drir and yourself, are of the opinion that the Forsaken are actually held together and animated by active magical energies, specifically dark ones. You also believe that perpetual contact with negative energy makes the recipient innately evil. That's all very well, except for the fact that there's no proof whatsoever. The existence of noble forsaken, and more to the point, human forsaken, who still feel the pain of betrayals during their lives and really just want to be left in peace are all evidence to the contrary. For the most part, the Forsaken are as they were in life, only somewhat more cynical and bitter, as are many survivors of terrible tragedies that befell them for no good reason.

In any event, we've been through this before. That's not even what I wanted to talk about here. The point I wanted to make, which has been lost in all this talk about the undead, is that originality is healthy, indeed necessary, for any series to remain remotely interesting. Do you see what I mean now?
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  #41  
Old 08-22-2007, 08:38 AM
Yuber8900 Yuber8900 is offline

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So evil people can't be noble?

Damn there go about half my bad guy concepts...

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  #42  
Old 08-22-2007, 09:32 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Originally Posted by Flamestrider View Post
I've heard all of that before, Kenzuki. The fact is, Blizzard has never been clear on the precise magical nature of undeath. Some people on these forums, like Drir and yourself, are of the opinion that the Forsaken are actually held together and animated by active magical energies, specifically dark ones. You also believe that perpetual contact with negative energy makes the recipient innately evil. That's all very well, except for the fact that there's no proof whatsoever. The existence of noble forsaken, and more to the point, human forsaken, who still feel the pain of betrayals during their lives and really just want to be left in peace are all evidence to the contrary. For the most part, the Forsaken are as they were in life, only somewhat more cynical and bitter, as are many survivors of terrible tragedies that befell them for no good reason.

In any event, we've been through this before. That's not even what I wanted to talk about here. The point I wanted to make, which has been lost in all this talk about the undead, is that originality is healthy, indeed necessary, for any series to remain remotely interesting. Do you see what I mean now?
I think I have all the proof I need.
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  #43  
Old 08-22-2007, 10:37 AM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

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Um...such as?
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  #44  
Old 08-22-2007, 10:38 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Um...such as?
98% of people who become undead are corrupted in some way, shape, or fashion. Ergo there must be something naturally corrupting about the process of becoming undead, it's also a proven fact that all undead are bathed in the Shadow. This is why healing spells of the Holy Light sear and burn their flesh whether or not they are good or evil.

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  #45  
Old 08-22-2007, 05:55 PM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

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98% of the people who become undead are the armorers, peasants, farmers, husbands, wives, and so on and so forth who currently populate Lordaeron and basically go on with their daily lives. A very small percentage of the Forsaken have done anything that would be regarded as evil on anybody's moral compass.

Regarding "bathed in the Shadow," it's not a proven fact. It's your conclusion based solely on the evidence that in some but not all sources of lore, any exposure to the light sears undead flesh.
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  #46  
Old 08-23-2007, 06:06 AM
Timolas Timolas is offline


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Well while I'm sick to death of old arguements, it really is the Forsaken who want to be left in peace who are the minority. Honestly, most of the Forsaken we meet are pretty deranged, sadistic or simply cold and single minded. They're not loners out to live a life as normal as possible. They aren't pacifists. They're military minded, insane and dark in general.
I did not use the word evil.
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  #47  
Old 08-23-2007, 09:09 AM
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Well while I'm sick to death of old arguements, it really is the Forsaken who want to be left in peace who are the minority. Honestly, most of the Forsaken we meet are pretty deranged, sadistic or simply cold and single minded. They're not loners out to live a life as normal as possible. They aren't pacifists. They're military minded, insane and dark in general.
I did not use the word evil.
How many Human NPCs in WoW do you know who don't either kill someone or have you kill someone? Even that girl who wants to turn invisible has you eventually slaughtering innocent pigs and a kobold.

It's the same thing as in Pokémon, every mothafucking person in the universe has something to do with capturing, training and fighting Pokémon.

WoW game stuff =/= proof.
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  #48  
Old 08-23-2007, 10:02 AM
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Difference being the motives and what exactly you kill. In the case of the Forsaken it is mostly without innocent intentions. You kill wild animals - to get ingredients for poison. You kill civilians... for... some reason.
Forsaken civilians in general tend to have that bastard, cynical, cold attitude and "I only feet hate and want vengeance" kind of thing. Then there are of course, just random Forsaken NPCs that don't do anything out of the ordinary besides decay.

What I've wondered, which is unrelated, is what Forsaken are doing as members of the Burning Legion, specifically Felsworn in Outland. We also see plenty of others in places and factions they have nothing to do with that I can tell. Kind of confusing.
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  #49  
Old 08-23-2007, 02:12 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamestrider View Post
98% of the people who become undead are the armorers, peasants, farmers, husbands, wives, and so on and so forth who currently populate Lordaeron and basically go on with their daily lives. A very small percentage of the Forsaken have done anything that would be regarded as evil on anybody's moral compass.

Regarding "bathed in the Shadow," it's not a proven fact. It's your conclusion based solely on the evidence that in some but not all sources of lore, any exposure to the light sears undead flesh.
Actually the Horde Player's Guide does say they were born from the Shadow. And the other RPG books says that the undead and demons are the enemies of the Light because they embody destruction and entropy. Necromancy is not called the black arts for nothing mate. It came from demons, there is nothing good in it.
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  #50  
Old 08-23-2007, 02:18 PM
Yuber8900 Yuber8900 is offline

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Actually the Horde Player's Guide does say they were born from the Shadow. And the other RPG books says that the undead and demons are the enemies of the Light because they embody destruction and entropy. Necromancy is not called the black arts for nothing mate. It came from demons, there is nothing good in it.
Say that to Johann Faust VIII.
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