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  #26  
Old 08-02-2015, 09:05 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
Grom should hang in the nearest tree.

Slay the Forsaken, all of them.
Hey, don't pick on the Forsaken. They didn't do nothing bad this expansion. They didn't do much of anything at all, actually.
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  #27  
Old 08-02-2015, 09:12 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Oh, wow, they actually added the Laughing Skull clan in WoD? Let's take a look...

*looks it up*

Aaand, just as expected, it's nothing like it is supposed to be. The deceptive clan of liars and assassins is instead so "WAAAGH berserk" that even the Iron Horde's too normal for them. No mention of Mogor either, instead he's looking over a gladiator ring ("LOL, JUST LIKE TBC", 'cause THAT'S where Mogor totally came from). AND HE ONLY HAS ONE HEAD!!!

Man, the lore is seriously WRONG in this expansion. I'm just happy it's only an alternate version, and not the real deal.
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  #28  
Old 08-02-2015, 09:15 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Man, the lore is seriously WRONG in this expansion. I'm just happy it's only an alternate version, and not the real deal.
Sad to say this, Lord Kir, but the official stance is that the differences are only incredibly minor, with the repeated adage of the differences just being "blades of grass".

The bladewind and whiteclaw clan look extremely annoyed.
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  #29  
Old 08-02-2015, 09:29 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Sad to say this, Lord Kir, but the official stance is that the differences are only incredibly minor, with the repeated adage of the differences just being "blades of grass".
Bla-bla-bla, I trust my eyes, not the word of twitter that gets forgotten the next day. No way is this the same world. I suppose they wanted it to be so originally (comments like "that's not a time travel expansion" show it), but it didn't quite make the cut. It's one thing to expand on the old worldbuilding, but to forget (or completely change) something that you've created not so very long ago is impossible. It's just easier to blame it all on "alternate version world" (like the one in TOTA), instead of trying to reconcile the bizarro version of the world and characters with the original ones.

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
The bladewind and whiteclaw clan look extremely annoyed.
See, the novels that made up those (RotH and BTDP) also weren't perfect, conveniently forgetting some moments and mudding up others, but it wasn't on the same scale as WOD - I could still imagine the events of old games and novels happening roughly in the same world. WOD just gives me a different Draenor, with a different Kilrogg, a different Kargath, and an extremely different Ogrim Doomhammer. Orgrim fucking Doomhammer protesting to Blackhand that they shouldn't kill innocent draenei. What. The. Hell. Even in LOTC, where Doomhammer was obviously sweettalking before a clueless Thrall, he still couldn't hide his susrprise and amusement at the fact that Thrall tried to stop needless looting and slaughter of human peasants. And here he speaks out for the DRAENEI? Against BLACKHAND, who couldn't suspect Orgrim of being anything but his most devoted friend up until the end?

Yeah, sorry, it just doesn't work. Does not compute. Defies in-verse explanation. The only rational answer is: everything is indeed very different. The whole PURPOSE of Horde's invasion on Azeroth becomes BOGUS if there is a whole goddamn Ogre Empire to destroy.
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  #30  
Old 08-02-2015, 09:42 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Bla-bla-bla, I trust my eyes, not the word of twitter that gets forgotten the next day. No way is this the same world. I suppose they wanted it to be so originally (comments like "that's not a time travel expansion" show it), but it didn't quite make the cut. It's one thing to expand on the old worldbuilding, but to forget (or completely change) something that you've created not so very long ago is impossible. It's just easier to blame it all on "alternate version world" (like the one in TOTA), instead of trying to reconcile the bizarro version of the world and characters with the original ones.


See, the novels that made up those (RotH and BTDP) also weren't perfect, conveniently forgetting some moments and mudding up others, but it wasn't on the same scale as WOD - I could still imagine the events of old games and novels happening roughly in the same world. WOD just gives me a different Draenor, with a different Kilrogg, a different Kargath, and an extremely different Ogrim Doomhammer. Orgrim fucking Doomhammer protesting to Blackhand that they shouldn't kill innocent draenei. What. The. Hell. Even in LOTC, where Doomhammer was obviously sweettalking before a clueless Thrall, he still couldn't hide his susrprise and amusement at the fact that Thrall tried to stop needless looting and slaughter of human peasants. And here he speaks out for the DRAENEI? Against BLACKHAND, who couldn't suspect Orgrim of being anything but his most devoted friend up until the end?

Yeah, sorry, it just doesn't work. Does not compute. Defies in-verse explanation. The only rational answer is: everything is indeed very different. The whole PURPOSE of Horde's invasion on Azeroth becomes BOGUS if there is a whole goddamn Ogre Empire to destroy.
Blizzard broke Kir.
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  #31  
Old 08-02-2015, 09:45 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Bla-bla-bla, I trust my eyes, not the word of twitter that gets forgotten the next day. No way is this the same world. I suppose they wanted it to be so originally (comments like "that's not a time travel expansion" show it), but it didn't quite make the cut. It's one thing to expand on the old worldbuilding, but to forget (or completely change) something that you've created not so very long ago is impossible. It's just easier to blame it all on "alternate version world" (like the one in TOTA), instead of trying to reconcile the bizarro version of the world and characters with the original ones.


See, the novels that made up those (RotH and BTDP) also weren't perfect, conveniently forgetting some moments and mudding up others, but it wasn't on the same scale as WOD - I could still imagine the events of old games and novels happening roughly in the same world. WOD just gives me a different Draenor, with a different Kilrogg, a different Kargath, and an extremely different Ogrim Doomhammer. Orgrim fucking Doomhammer protesting to Blackhand that they shouldn't kill innocent draenei. What. The. Hell. Even in LOTC, where Doomhammer was obviously sweettalking before a clueless Thrall, he still couldn't hide his susrprise and amusement at the fact that Thrall tried to stop needless looting and slaughter of human peasants. And here he speaks out for the DRAENEI? Against BLACKHAND, who couldn't suspect Orgrim of being anything but his most devoted friend up until the end?

Yeah, sorry, it just doesn't work. Does not compute. Defies in-verse explanation. The only rational answer is: everything is indeed very different. The whole PURPOSE of Horde's invasion on Azeroth becomes BOGUS if there is a whole goddamn Ogre Empire to destroy.
Pfft, bringing sanity and common sense into this? That's just playing dirty.
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  #32  
Old 08-02-2015, 10:21 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Pfft, bringing sanity and common sense into this? That's just playing dirty.
Well, yeah, it's fantasy, but I have to enjoy my fantasy as whole, not to think of parts that don't count as canon anymore!

I am now at the point that I'm looking forward to the Movieverse to see how a reboot of the franchise might work. Seriously. WoD already feels like one, and it would be suited better as one.

Can we have, like, a "normal Warcraftverse" and an "metal shaman WoDverse", with different canons? Might throw out a "WoW-less Warcraftverse" too?

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Blizzard broke Kir.
Well, they should at least respect their own material. Is there ANY source depicting Doomhammer as being even remotely nice? The noblest of his deeds I can think of is restraining himself from smashing Perenolde's head and promising on his honor to protect Alterac, plus, eh, being less of a dick when he and Durotan toured a Draenei town (even there, he should have agreed to take a freaking bath from the start). Oh, also: feeling guilty about betraying Blackhand.

Doomhammer faced the same dilemma in RotH that he did in WoD. Before any shenanigans with demon blood. What did he decide? Continue with the slaughter, so that Blackhand-sama respects him a lot more.
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  #33  
Old 08-02-2015, 10:29 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Well, yeah, it's fantasy, but I have to enjoy my fantasy as whole, not to think of parts that don't count as canon anymore!

I am now at the point that I'm looking forward to the Movieverse to see how a reboot of the franchise might work. Seriously. WoD already feels like one, and it would be suited better as one.

Can we have, like, a "normal Warcraftverse" and an "metal shaman WoDverse", with different canons? Might throw out a "WoW-less Warcraftverse" too?
Note: I am not, in fact, disagreeing with you. I'd rather keep sanity and common sense in play as well. Just warning you not to expect that with the alternate universe going forwward.
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  #34  
Old 08-02-2015, 10:39 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Note: I am not, in fact, disagreeing with you. I'd rather keep sanity and common sense in play as well. Just warning you not to expect that with the alternate universe going forwward.
Why not? Come next expansion, WoD will be forgotten, just like any other mountain of content before it. Might as well do it right now.
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  #35  
Old 08-02-2015, 11:19 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Sad to say this, Lord Kir, but the official stance is that the differences are only incredibly minor, with the repeated adage of the differences just being "blades of grass".

The bladewind and whiteclaw clan look extremely annoyed.
I don't think they meant to say there would be minor differences, just that if someone was forgotten or different, it's a blade of grass effect. Most parallel universes aren't 1:1.
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  #36  
Old 08-02-2015, 01:07 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Doomhammer got whitewashed in WoD just so the Orc fans can keep believing he wasn't a monster.

He'll also be whitewashed in the movie.
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  #37  
Old 08-03-2015, 06:24 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Doomhammer got whitewashed in WoD just so the Orc fans can keep believing he wasn't a monster.

He'll also be whitewashed in the movie.
That avatar is starting to really suit you.

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  #38  
Old 08-03-2015, 06:30 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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That avatar is starting to really suit you.

Note: Don't take that as an insult.
He should change his nickname to MoodyAlly.
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  #39  
Old 08-03-2015, 07:23 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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On the topic, there really isn't much to negotiate about. The Iron Horde has not managed to take much territories, the draenei don't seem like an expansionist lot (which means there's little point to exchanging territories), nor do they have the economic basis that makes reparations possible.

Destruction of the siege equipment and the facilities for producing them is the only real thing I can think of. You could try to go for prosecuting individuals, but that might simply provoke more fighting due to the fact you're only really targeting chieftains, which is what a peace negotiation is trying to avoid. Maybe throw in 'free passage for draenei preachers', since spreading the gospel of Light is something draenei should have been trying anyway. Returning all draenei remains to be entombed in Auchindoun is another thing that should probably be required in negotiations.
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  #40  
Old 08-03-2015, 07:14 PM
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I use that avatar for my facebook, after it got some created editing by a guildie.

Oh, and trying to get Grom executed will just lead to more fighting, and if Exarch 'I'll have your head' Yrel can make bygones, I guess the rest of the space squids can!

As for my Paladin, he's just getting ready to fight whatever army of Orcs appear on Thursday...
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And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
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  #41  
Old 08-04-2015, 10:51 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
On the topic, there really isn't much to negotiate about. The Iron Horde has not managed to take much territories, the draenei don't seem like an expansionist lot (which means there's little point to exchanging territories), nor do they have the economic basis that makes reparations possible.

Destruction of the siege equipment and the facilities for producing them is the only real thing I can think of. You could try to go for prosecuting individuals, but that might simply provoke more fighting due to the fact you're only really targeting chieftains, which is what a peace negotiation is trying to avoid. Maybe throw in 'free passage for draenei preachers', since spreading the gospel of Light is something draenei should have been trying anyway. Returning all draenei remains to be entombed in Auchindoun is another thing that should probably be required in negotiations.

Uum.. why would that be a bad thing, prosecuting orc chieftains who led and heavily participated in the fighting? Prosecuting and punishing high ranking officers and leaders of a defeated enemy is common. As it should be. Now if you think the IH should be treated nicely because it might cause bad feelings why should anyone give a flying fuck what the defeated Iron/Fel Horde thinks or feels? They've been stomped into the ground. Twice. Hard. Any peace negotiations should be along the lines of making sure the IH/FH orcs are no longer a threat to the Frostwolves and Draenei again. If that means stick the knife in and twist, then twist the thing until it snaps off. Peace negotiations, or this SHOULD be called the IH terms of surrender are as harsh as they need to be. It's not like the IH doesn't deserve hard surrender terms delivered to it, and its surviving officers (chieftains and their subordinates) prosecuted and executed.

Mercy should be given to defeated enemies, IF they deserve or have earned it. The IH and its surviving leadership haven't earned, nor do they deserve it.
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  #42  
Old 08-04-2015, 11:19 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Uum.. why would that be a bad thing, prosecuting orc chieftains who led and heavily participated in the fighting? Prosecuting and punishing high ranking officers and leaders of a defeated enemy is common. As it should be. Now if you think the IH should be treated nicely because it might cause bad feelings why should anyone give a flying fuck what the defeated Iron/Fel Horde thinks or feels? They've been stomped into the ground. Twice. Hard. Any peace negotiations should be along the lines of making sure the IH/FH orcs are no longer a threat to the Frostwolves and Draenei again. If that means stick the knife in and twist, then twist the thing until it snaps off. Peace negotiations, or this SHOULD be called the IH terms of surrender are as harsh as they need to be. It's not like the IH doesn't deserve hard surrender terms delivered to it, and its surviving officers (chieftains and their subordinates) prosecuted and executed.

Mercy should be given to defeated enemies, IF they deserve or have earned it. The IH and its surviving leadership haven't earned, nor do they deserve it.
The primary purpose of a peace negotiation is the creation of peace. As a result, the combined sum of the treaty must be considered preferable to continued fighting by both sides.

In orcish society, warriors swear personal allegiance to at least the warchief, and almost certainly their chieftain. They have vowed their honor to the service of their chieftain. Given the heavy emphasis on honor throughout all ranks of orcish society, you're not going to have the warriors hand over the chieftains without a fight. Hence, attempting a peace treaty with this as a requirement is entirely pointless. You could certainly choose to continue the war if you place a high enough value on justice (and justice alone, as there are no other gains to be made) compared to the lives that would be lost, but this thread is about negotiating a peace.

For a good real life equivalent, think of the Japanese Imperial family following World War II.
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  #43  
Old 08-04-2015, 02:13 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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The United States crushed Japan and had it lose all seized territory. WoD's ending is not even close to Japan's situation post-WW2.

The ending is more like the Western Ally leadership ordering to buddy up with Stalin after he helped fend off an alien invasion instead of confronting him for his antics before and during the war. WoD has yet another "There must always be an X!" ending.

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  #44  
Old 08-06-2015, 07:23 PM
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do nothing act surprised 6-10 years down the line when the orcs return for genocide part 2: electric boogaloo
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  #45  
Old 08-06-2015, 08:00 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Kill all Forsaken

Yes I know we aren't negotiating between the Alliance and Horde, that should be a clause anyway
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  #46  
Old 08-06-2015, 08:01 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Kill everyone.
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  #47  
Old 08-06-2015, 08:10 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Kill all Forsaken

Yes I know we aren't negotiating between the Alliance and Horde, that should be a clause anyway
Make your case. Convince Durotan, Yrel, and Grommash that it's in their best interest to go to our world and do this. The floor is yours, alliance advisor.
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  #48  
Old 08-06-2015, 08:11 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Make your case. Convince Durotan, Yrel, and Grommash that it's in their best interest to go to our world and do this. The floor is yours, alliance advisor.
We'll fuck you up if you don't. Your forces are weak and broken. Do as we say or die.
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  #49  
Old 08-06-2015, 08:23 PM
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Dalaran is Neutral, Khadgar seems to be leading the Kirin Tor, Neutrality wins!
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  #50  
Old 08-06-2015, 08:37 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Make your case. Convince Durotan, Yrel, and Grommash that it's in their best interest to go to our world and do this. The floor is yours, alliance advisor.
The Forsaken are assholes and since we came and took out their trash they need to come and take out ours.
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