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  #151  
Old 03-10-2015, 10:10 AM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Need source on this.
Lol, I made it clear I had no sauce. But just thinking logistically... How long would it take for a human(oid) leg, let's say, to wear out from consistent use? Let's be generous... A few months? 3 months, let's say. No clue, really, but that seems like a super-fast time for an entire limb to degrade (remember, they can stagger on stumps).

So in 3 months, they lose every ghoul/zombie/whatever made that day.

But in the mean-time... I don't know anything about necromantic rituals, the number of necromancers, the amount of available corpses-to-raise-from, etc... But if we're going by Wc3 it "doesn't seem to take too long", "they have plenty" (let's say 100 for kicks), and "there are loads" (let's say 1000 for kicks). We also don't know if they can only create 1 'undead minion' from 1 corpse (though the game would indicate 'yes').

Now I put all those numbers in my mathometer... And I have no clue. But it sure seems like, logistically, all those Necromancers & Liches with all those corpses can more than make up for the loss of a few worn-out minions.

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Originally Posted by TerrorHoofMayo
By "strict" I don't mean only what the gameplay allows. Give me a source of Scourge raising new undead on the battlefield, right after killing them. Hero units don't count for the sole reason that they are so few of them, and the fact an army is not maintained by one person.
Except you only allowed reference to the game?... Perhaps I misunderstood your original comment.

Again, I have no sauce. But I guess what I'm getting at is that Warcraft 3 is incredibly representative. It should be obvious that a collection of 15 Gryphon Riders and a 3 Priests didn't destroy the entire Northrend Undead stronghold under Mal'ganis... Nor did a smattering of Undead crush the great Elven might of Quel'thalas... Nor did any of other game happenings occur directly as they were portrayed in-game.

Due in major part to the constraints of the format (e.g. kind of a small-group-size, hero-focused, soft-counter game), the game does a lot of what I would consider "representative" stuff. So BaronGrackle's fleet of Gryphon Riders? Probably LOADS of them. And the Scourge? Truly fearsome in their nearly limitless numbers. There are tons of Death Knights, tons of Paladins, tons of Far Seers, tons of Heroes; that's part of how the game is designed (i.e. Heroes are representative of great groups of that archetype).

Another aspect of the representative nature lies in the abilities. Liches probably have more than 4 abilities (and more than just frost nova/armor, dark ritual/d&D). Can Sorceresses Polymorph only turn things into Sheep? Similarly, I don't feel like the in-game constraints of balance & consistency should tie down the Necromancer's Raise Dead. Necromancers appear (lore-wise) to be able to raise a variety of Undead, yet in-game it's only Skeletons. Well, I would argue that that is merely a game-constraint; I'm sure they can raise all variety of Undead with an unknown alacrity.

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If this is how you feel, then your thoughts on the matter is worth less than turd.
Lol, thanks. I was honestly laughing at what amounts to "let's consider the reality of this fictional situation".

Sometimes I just have to take a step back & laugh at all this.
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  #152  
Old 03-10-2015, 10:57 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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I guess before the so called "Orc-fatigue" in WoD, there was the "Scourge-fatigue" back in Vanilla.
This honestly would not surprise me in the least if it were true.
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  #153  
Old 03-10-2015, 11:10 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Even without superior numbers, the scourge is a terrifying adversary to face.

-Have fun trying to outmanoeuvre the scourge. Raising undead can be done at a range, meaning you can have enemy soldiers emerge in the middle of your formation, or attack you from the back right after you charged them.
-Have fun trying to fortify against the scourge. They not only have access to vast amounts and variety of flying soldiers, but they also have enormous flying citadels that are capable of deploying small armies without even landing. Not to mention the part where, thanks to aforementioned raising spells, they can have reinforcements emerge in the middle of your base.
-Have fun trying to counter scourge espionage. Not only do they have a large contingent of arcane mages, known for scrying and invisibility spells, but they also have invisible scouts and are capable of possessing any soldier they can get a banshee close to.
-Have fun trying to kill all the scourge heavies. Not only does the scourge have access to units far bigger than anything you can field (abominations, flesh giants, giant skeletons, skeletal dragons, etc), but these beings are also undead, meaning they need a lot less of their flesh to function and still be a threat.
-Have fun avoiding scourge traps. Thanks to their vast stores of Nerubian soldiers, the enemy can have entire armies hidden underground, and you wouldn't know until it was too late.
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  #154  
Old 03-10-2015, 11:13 AM
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They also have a system of infiltration.
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  #155  
Old 03-10-2015, 11:21 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I think Dragonblight put up a valiant effort at making the Scourge look legitimately threatening. Especially when you look at Wintergarde, an Alliance base that looks like the entirety of it was overrun by the Scourge and the remaining survivors are huddled up in the back making a last line of defense when you've just showed up. (Kinda like the fantasy equivalent of every zombie movie ever where the last remaining survivors are making one last defense as the hordes of undead break through the haven they were hiding in.)

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  #156  
Old 03-10-2015, 11:22 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I think Dragonblight put up a valiant effort at making the Scourge look legitimately threatening. Especially when you look at Wintergarde, an Alliance base that looks like the entirety of it was overrun by the Scourge and the remaining survivors are huddled up in the back making a last line of defense when you've just showed up.
What about Icecrown? It's Azeroth's Mordor.
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  #157  
Old 03-10-2015, 11:34 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Even without superior numbers, the scourge is a terrifying adversary to face.

-Have fun trying to outmanoeuvre the scourge. Raising undead can be done at a range, meaning you can have enemy soldiers emerge in the middle of your formation, or attack you from the back right after you charged them.
-Have fun trying to fortify against the scourge. They not only have access to vast amounts and variety of flying soldiers, but they also have enormous flying citadels that are capable of deploying small armies without even landing. Not to mention the part where, thanks to aforementioned raising spells, they can have reinforcements emerge in the middle of your base.
-Have fun trying to counter scourge espionage. Not only do they have a large contingent of arcane mages, known for scrying and invisibility spells, but they also have invisible scouts and are capable of possessing any soldier they can get a banshee close to.
-Have fun trying to kill all the scourge heavies. Not only does the scourge have access to units far bigger than anything you can field (abominations, flesh giants, giant skeletons, skeletal dragons, etc), but these beings are also undead, meaning they need a lot less of their flesh to function and still be a threat.
-Have fun avoiding scourge traps. Thanks to their vast stores of Nerubian soldiers, the enemy can have entire armies hidden underground, and you wouldn't know until it was too late.
Don't forget the Cult of the Damned.

Admittedly, I think Blizzard overplayed the susceptibility of both factions to infiltration from cultists; the Alliance got it worse by having the Cult of the Damned virtually everywhere during Wrath, but then at least both factions got a dose of it from the Twilights in Cataclysm.
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  #158  
Old 03-10-2015, 11:34 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
Lol, I made it clear I had no sauce. But just thinking logistically... How long would it take for a human(oid) leg, let's say, to wear out from consistent use? Let's be generous... A few months? 3 months, let's say. No clue, really, but that seems like a super-fast time for an entire limb to degrade (remember, they can stagger on stumps).

So in 3 months, they lose every ghoul/zombie/whatever made that day.

But in the mean-time... I don't know anything about necromantic rituals, the number of necromancers, the amount of available corpses-to-raise-from, etc... But if we're going by Wc3 it "doesn't seem to take too long", "they have plenty" (let's say 100 for kicks), and "there are loads" (let's say 1000 for kicks). We also don't know if they can only create 1 'undead minion' from 1 corpse (though the game would indicate 'yes').

Now I put all those numbers in my mathometer... And I have no clue. But it sure seems like, logistically, all those Necromancers & Liches with all those corpses can more than make up for the loss of a few worn-out minions.
It will take a years for a human limb to wear out from use. The difference is an undead limb is already deteriorating. Though wear and tear is a moot point at this time since I just remembered cannibalism. The point of the undead not being at 100% peak efficiency/performance still stands though.

Quote:
Except you only allowed reference to the game?... Perhaps I misunderstood your original comment.

Again, I have no sauce. But I guess what I'm getting at is that Warcraft 3 is incredibly representative. It should be obvious that a collection of 15 Gryphon Riders and a 3 Priests didn't destroy the entire Northrend Undead stronghold under Mal'ganis... Nor did a smattering of Undead crush the great Elven might of Quel'thalas... Nor did any of other game happenings occur directly as they were portrayed in-game.

Due in major part to the constraints of the format (e.g. kind of a small-group-size, hero-focused, soft-counter game), the game does a lot of what I would consider "representative" stuff. So BaronGrackle's fleet of Gryphon Riders? Probably LOADS of them. And the Scourge? Truly fearsome in their nearly limitless numbers. There are tons of Death Knights, tons of Paladins, tons of Far Seers, tons of Heroes; that's part of how the game is designed (i.e. Heroes are representative of great groups of that archetype).

Another aspect of the representative nature lies in the abilities. Liches probably have more than 4 abilities (and more than just frost nova/armor, dark ritual/d&D). Can Sorceresses Polymorph only turn things into Sheep? Similarly, I don't feel like the in-game constraints of balance & consistency should tie down the Necromancer's Raise Dead. Necromancers appear (lore-wise) to be able to raise a variety of Undead, yet in-game it's only Skeletons. Well, I would argue that that is merely a game-constraint; I'm sure they can raise all variety of Undead with an unknown alacrity.
If it doesn't show up in the game, either through gameplay or cutscene, or at least attached to the manual, then it's not there. And this is largely a counterpoint to the notion "every slain becomes undead" or "for every one they kill we raise ten more." People keep saying that, but the game has not demonstrated the same at all. The only thing that comes close to immediate Scourge conversion on the battlefield was necromancers raising skeletons.

And considering the representative nature of the gameplay, you can say the same about mass dispell abilities

Quote:
Lol, thanks. I was honestly laughing at what amounts to "let's consider the reality of this fictional situation".

Sometimes I just have to take a step back & laugh at all this.
Fiction has to be grounded in reality. Otherwise there is really no point for posting in about lore.
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  #159  
Old 03-10-2015, 11:35 AM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
What about Icecrown? It's Azeroth's Mordor.
Even the name Dragonblight sounds ominous. The mightiest of all beings crafted by Titans lay in ruin under a desolate frozen hell roamed forever by undead hordes. Even do the Dragonblight is one giant Dragon graveyard, the most eerie thing about Dragonblight in my opinion is the ruined Titan road that runs through the zone, claimed by the Undead scourge.

Like how Grimtale put it. The zone makes you feel underwhelmed by the Scourge although contrary to popular opinion.
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  #160  
Old 03-10-2015, 11:50 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Fiction has to be grounded in reality. Otherwise there is really no point for posting in about lore.
The problem is this: grounding a fantasy story in reality isn't the same as allowing the constraints of reality to dictate the constraints of the fantasy world. If you insist on that, then it's not really a fantasy story anymore.

Arguing earnestly about how long a corpse raised by necromantic magics would last on the warpath essentially requires you to throw a lot of reality out the window, because necromancy isn't real, and Blizzard (at the very least) hasn't invested a lot of effort in going into that level of detail.

It's akin to asking if the Thing from the Fantastic Four has a made out of orange rock and how it functions. Marvel as a studio and the writers of FF don't really have an overwhelming reason to answer that question, so stories don't address it, because the Thing's involvement in the comics has to do with punching/throwing things and talking about Yancy Street.

Bottom line: there is such a thing as too much reality.
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  #161  
Old 03-10-2015, 11:52 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
It's akin to asking if the Thing from the Fantastic Four has a made out of orange rock and how it functions. Marvel as a studio and the writers of FF don't really have an overwhelming reason to answer that question, so stories don't address it, because the Thing's involvement in the comics has to do with punching/throwing things and talking about Yancy Street.
Second fantastic four movie referenced it, I think.
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  #162  
Old 03-10-2015, 11:57 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
The problem is this: grounding a fantasy story in reality isn't the same as allowing the constraints of reality to dictate the constraints of the fantasy world. If you insist on that, then it's not really a fantasy story anymore.

Arguing earnestly about how long a corpse raised by necromantic magics would last on the warpath essentially requires you to throw a lot of reality out the window, because necromancy isn't real, and Blizzard (at the very least) hasn't invested a lot of effort in going into that level of detail.

It's akin to asking if the Thing from the Fantastic Four has a made out of orange rock and how it functions. Marvel as a studio and the writers of FF don't really have an overwhelming reason to answer that question, so stories don't address it, because the Thing's involvement in the comics has to do with punching/throwing things and talking about Yancy Street.

Bottom line: there is such a thing as too much reality.
I don't disagree. When I first mentioned realism, it was in the context of Alliance weaponry.
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  #163  
Old 03-10-2015, 11:59 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Second fantastic four movie referenced it, I think.
Yeah, but wasn't that movie roundly considered shit?
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  #164  
Old 03-10-2015, 12:09 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Yeah, but wasn't that movie roundly considered shit?
True, true, but it still counts as FF writers addressing it


I wasn't disagreeing with your point though. Necromancy, by its very nature, needs to circumvent realism. Assumptions about limitations should only be the obvious (no global range on raising the dead, most undead create a noticeable smell), or the ones inferred by the writing (ghouls need fresh corpses, skeletons are lower-grade undead warriors, abominations need multiple corpses to make). And even then, the obvious is very much debatable.
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  #165  
Old 03-10-2015, 01:10 PM
Arterius Arterius is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
The problem is this: grounding a fantasy story in reality isn't the same as allowing the constraints of reality to dictate the constraints of the fantasy world. If you insist on that, then it's not really a fantasy story anymore.

Arguing earnestly about how long a corpse raised by necromantic magics would last on the warpath essentially requires you to throw a lot of reality out the window, because necromancy isn't real, and Blizzard (at the very least) hasn't invested a lot of effort in going into that level of detail.

It's akin to asking if the Thing from the Fantastic Four has a made out of orange rock and how it functions. Marvel as a studio and the writers of FF don't really have an overwhelming reason to answer that question, so stories don't address it, because the Thing's involvement in the comics has to do with punching/throwing things and talking about Yancy Street.

Bottom line: there is such a thing as too much reality.
I think when a lot of people talk about grounding fantasy in reality, what they really mean is that the rules of the fantasy world should be consistent. For a very magic-heavy setting like D&D, you wouldn't really need to think about how long an undead army could last on the warpath, because anyone with enough magical abilities to create an undead army would also possess the abilities necessary to slow or even stop decomposition. The same is not necessarily true of a low magic setting where you might be able to reanimate the dead, but not preserve it.

Warcraft, of course, has the issue where it has no consistency. It runs entirely on narrative causality, where with enough magic you can go anywhere and do anything until the story suddenly decides that you can't. It's not necessarily a bad thing (see Discworld, which explicitly runs on narrative causality to the point where it's about as fundamental to the running of its world as gravity is to ours), but Warcraft plays out like it's embarrassed to admit it.
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  #166  
Old 03-10-2015, 02:02 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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WC3 had it that the Scourge was able to mass recruit through the use of the plague of undeath, bring up Shades, and have spirits attack enemies going for their buildings. Looking at the higher ups, Ner'zhul raised Nerubians without the plague, and Arthas turned Sylvanas into a Scourge she was dying.

They were also capable of sending out warhips with cannons.

Last edited by Galdus; 03-10-2015 at 03:16 PM..
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  #167  
Old 03-10-2015, 02:40 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
What about Icecrown? It's Azeroth's Mordor.
Good call, that has some desperate moments too.

Darion saying that fighting the Lich King would be hopeless actually worried me, but then again I didn't know better during that time.
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  #168  
Old 03-12-2015, 10:21 AM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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...Though wear and tear is a moot point at this time since I just remembered cannibalism...
Ooh, good point.


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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo
If it doesn't show up in the game, either through gameplay or cutscene, or at least attached to the manual, then it's not there. And this is largely a counterpoint to the notion "every slain becomes undead" or "for every one they kill we raise ten more." People keep saying that, but the game has not demonstrated the same at all.
Alright. Then Question: How are Ghouls formed?

We have documentation on Abominations (stitched together corpses, animated via necromancy). Banshees are the raised spirits of (Night?High?) Elves. Crypt Fiends are mummified & raised Nerubians from Northrend. Gargoyles are... (actually, heck, what are they? "beasts from Northrend" is all I remember, but are they demonic (implied by their similarity to the Dreadlord), or are they dark-magic-constructs, or are they actual creatures-turned-evil, or actual-evil-creatures?...). But are Ghouls created, raised, morphed, etc? I don't honestly know. I just looked it up and it's all "... lumbering rotting corpses that were once Zombies who have made the final transition to Undead...". Ok... (so but is that a natural or a necromantically-empowered transition? And where/how do Zombies come from, then? (see below))

My point is, Necromancy in Warcraft was never restricted merely to "raising Skeletons from corpses". That is, however, how it was presented; in the game, in the manual (AFAIK), etc. However, what I'm talking about is the sheer 'reality' (and yes, I attempt to use that word un-ironically, see below) of the power & it's depiction; necromancy is "raising the dead/death magicks". So it stands to reason that there might be capabilities it possesses which go outside the presentation we see. And one of those, I submit, would be the raising of a variety of Undead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo
The only thing that comes close to immediate Scourge conversion on the battlefield was necromancers raising skeletons.
And by exactly what mechanism did all the people of Stratholme (who weren't culled by Arthas & Co) immediately turn into Zombies, then?

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo
Fiction has to be grounded in reality. Otherwise there is really no point for posting in about lore.
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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
The problem is this: grounding a fantasy story in reality isn't the same as allowing the constraints of reality to dictate the constraints of the fantasy world. If you insist on that, then it's not really a fantasy story anymore.

Arguing earnestly about how long a corpse raised by necromantic magics would last on the warpath essentially requires you to throw a lot of reality out the window, because necromancy isn't real, and Blizzard (at the very least) hasn't invested a lot of effort in going into that level of detail.

It's akin to asking if the Thing from the Fantastic Four has a made out of orange rock and how it functions. Marvel as a studio and the writers of FF don't really have an overwhelming reason to answer that question, so stories don't address it, because the Thing's involvement in the comics has to do with punching/throwing things and talking about Yancy Street.

Bottom line: there is such a thing as too much reality.
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Originally Posted by Arterius View Post
I think when a lot of people talk about grounding fantasy in reality, what they really mean is that the rules of the fantasy world should be consistent. For a very magic-heavy setting like D&D, you wouldn't really need to think about how long an undead army could last on the warpath, because anyone with enough magical abilities to create an undead army would also possess the abilities necessary to slow or even stop decomposition. The same is not necessarily true of a low magic setting where you might be able to reanimate the dead, but not preserve it.

Warcraft, of course, has the issue where it has no consistency. It runs entirely on narrative causality, where with enough magic you can go anywhere and do anything until the story suddenly decides that you can't. It's not necessarily a bad thing (see Discworld, which explicitly runs on narrative causality to the point where it's about as fundamental to the running of its world as gravity is to ours), but Warcraft plays out like it's embarrassed to admit it.
To be fair, I've kinda been playing devil's advocate; I'm actually quite interested in discussing the "reality" of a fictional setting (or perhaps, as Arterius points out, it's "internal consistency" or "adherence to it's *own* reality"). Heck, I'm interested in injecting reality into an intrinsically non-real situation; my discussion on Trolls is much of this nature.

I think I was more reacting to the way in which THM used the phrase. I had just finished reading all about fictional zombies with psychic zombie spiders and insta-skeletons, and just reading that made me chortle a bit.
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  #169  
Old 03-19-2015, 08:21 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Alright. Then Question: How are Ghouls formed?
Let me answer that question with another question. How are abominations formed, or any other undead for that matter?

People like to assume that undead conversion is immediate and on the battlefield, and can quickly overwhelm their opponents. Yet the game has never demonstrated such, and lore always involved a process to the conversion (which you conveniently listed).

Quote:
My point is, Necromancy in Warcraft was never restricted merely to "raising Skeletons from corpses". That is, however, how it was presented; in the game, in the manual (AFAIK), etc. However, what I'm talking about is the sheer 'reality' (and yes, I attempt to use that word un-ironically, see below) of the power & it's depiction; necromancy is "raising the dead/death magicks". So it stands to reason that there might be capabilities it possesses which go outside the presentation we see. And one of those, I submit, would be the raising of a variety of Undead.
The point is not the Scourge can only raise skeletons. I know that's false. The point is they aren't mass rezzing slain enemies during combat like everyone claims they do.
Quote:
And by exactly what mechanism did all the people of Stratholme (who weren't culled by Arthas & Co) immediately turn into Zombies, then?
Ingesting plagued grain, actual conversion by the hands of Mal'ganis.
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  #170  
Old 03-19-2015, 08:42 AM
Arterius Arterius is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Let me answer that question with another question. How are abominations formed, or any other undead for that matter?

People like to assume that undead conversion is immediate and on the battlefield, and can quickly overwhelm their opponents. Yet the game has never demonstrated such, and lore always involved a process to the conversion (which you conveniently listed).


The point is not the Scourge can only raise skeletons. I know that's false. The point is they aren't mass rezzing slain enemies during combat like everyone claims they do.
WoW does actually show some immediate conversion of the dead into undead, but only for specific types. Val'kyr are able to convert dead Vrykul into Vargul with a single spell, for instance. The Matthias Lehner quest Amy of the Damned also shows you Arthas converting his soldiers into ghouls as he's killing them. The Lich King also instantly animates a bunch of undead when he first shows up during the Wrath Gate cutscene. The Death Knight intro also has at least one quest that involves rapidly converting Scarlet Crusaders into ghouls using some kind of plague bomb, and I think one of the Ebon Blade dailies has you doing something similar to Scarlet Crusaders in Icecrown. And that's ignoring the game mechanics of Death Knights that have them instantly creating ghouls with Raise Dead or Army of the Dead.

For more complex undead that require specific preparation, like abominations or liches, there is a process. But it seems that all that's required to create the cheap cannon fodder undead is a sufficiently powerful/properly trained necromancer, enough dead bodies in their vicinity, and enough time to cast the spell (when it's not nearly instantaneous).
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  #171  
Old 03-19-2015, 09:11 AM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Let me answer that question with another question. How are abominations formed, or any other undead for that matter?
AFAIK (in-game/manual/lore):
- Abominations: necromantically-raised bodies made from multiple (human?) corpses stitched together
- Ghoul: see below? awaiting an actual answer?
- Crypt Fiend: necromantically-raised bodies of Nerubians
- Gargoyles: (arguably non-Undead (?))
- Banshee: necromantically-raised spirits of slain Night Elf women
- Destroyer: (arguably non-Undead (?))
- Shade: necromantically-raised spirits of sacrificed Acolytes
- Frost Wyrm: necromantically-raised bones of dead (Blue) Dragons
(lol; they all seem to follow the pattern of "necromancy on part of creature")

At least as far as I understood things. Seems pretty clear to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TerrorHoofMayo
People like to assume that undead conversion is immediate and on the battlefield, and can quickly overwhelm their opponents. Yet the game has never demonstrated such, and lore always involved a process to the conversion (which you conveniently listed).
I am trying not to assume that. But the "overwhelm" happens even if it involves a process (given that that process is not prohibitive, which, for in-game reasons as well as the Lore's tendency towards "rule-of-cool"ness, I would argue it is not). You might win the battle, but not the war (with the Undead), and that is due to their inevitability. It's just like the apocalypse scenarios with all the zombies that's so popular right now... It doesn't (necessarily) happen immediately, but after every engagement, the Undead are gaining more forces for every one their opponents lose (and more quickly than the living can replenish theirs (birthing new guys/training new ones not being as quick)).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TerrorHoofMayo
The point is not the Scourge can only raise skeletons. I know that's false. The point is they aren't mass rezzing slain enemies during combat like everyone claims they do.
Fair enough. I wouldn't argue the latter either, and knowing you are not claiming the former was alleviates that concern.

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Originally Posted by TerrorHoofMayo
Ingesting plagued grain, actual conversion by the hands of Mal'ganis.
Where in the campaign does it say that, explicitly? Because unless Mal'ganis has a city-wide necromantic influence (which I doubt), I know it was something else, because the Villagers literally just walk out of the building, & turn into zombies. And Mal'ganis doesn't stop (in-game) to cast Dark Conversion (in-game spell that literally does one thing; turns target creature-type (Villager) into specific creature (Zombie)) & Soul Preservation (in-game spell that also does literally one thing; removes target creature (Zombie) from game) for every villager, either, so it's not even like an in-game "Mal'ganis is the guy" effect can be claimed.

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Originally Posted by Arterius View Post
WoW does actually show some immediate conversion of the dead into undead, but only for specific types. ...

For more complex undead that require specific preparation, like abominations or liches, there is a process. ....
Thanks (& for the in-game examples). That lends credence.
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  #172  
Old 03-19-2015, 11:23 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by Arterius View Post
WoW does actually show some immediate conversion of the dead into undead, but only for specific types. Val'kyr are able to convert dead Vrykul into Vargul with a single spell, for instance. The Matthias Lehner quest Amy of the Damned also shows you Arthas converting his soldiers into ghouls as he's killing them. The Lich King also instantly animates a bunch of undead when he first shows up during the Wrath Gate cutscene. The Death Knight intro also has at least one quest that involves rapidly converting Scarlet Crusaders into ghouls using some kind of plague bomb, and I think one of the Ebon Blade dailies has you doing something similar to Scarlet Crusaders in Icecrown. And that's ignoring the game mechanics of Death Knights that have them instantly creating ghouls with Raise Dead or Army of the Dead.

For more complex undead that require specific preparation, like abominations or liches, there is a process. But it seems that all that's required to create the cheap cannon fodder undead is a sufficiently powerful/properly trained necromancer, enough dead bodies in their vicinity, and enough time to cast the spell (when it's not nearly instantaneous).
That's all true in the context of WoW. Originally Galdus wanted to keep the discussion within the confines of WC3 lore, so that's what I am doing. In terms lore development of the Scourge in WoW, I can't really argue since I agree.
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Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
Fair enough. I wouldn't argue the latter either, and knowing you are not claiming the former was alleviates that concern.
Alright, there is really nothing else for me to add then.
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Where in the campaign does it say that, explicitly? Because unless Mal'ganis has a city-wide necromantic influence (which I doubt), I know it was something else, because the Villagers literally just walk out of the building, & turn into zombies. And Mal'ganis doesn't stop (in-game) to cast Dark Conversion (in-game spell that literally does one thing; turns target creature-type (Villager) into specific creature (Zombie)) & Soul Preservation (in-game spell that also does literally one thing; removes target creature (Zombie) from game) for every villager, either, so it's not even like an in-game "Mal'ganis is the guy" effect can be claimed.
It was in the opening cutscene of the mission. Arthas arrives and such and such. But I get the impression I might have misunderstood the question if you don't mind reiterating.
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  #173  
Old 03-20-2015, 05:35 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
In a more WC3 consistent WoW, the Scourge would win any war against the playable factions. The Scourge being so poorly handled in WotLK really wasn't a surprise, considering how far you would have to go to ruin them (along with other retcons) for the PF's to even get close to winning.

If WotLK needed to happen, then it was rigged to crash.
The rule of cool ruined WotLK for me. Ner'zhul should still have been there. The death knight players should have been manipulated, pulling an order 66 on most of them as well as the forsaken near the end of the conflict, much better than Putress' backstabbing.

The Scourge should have attacked Kalimdor for a change, attacking the Eastern Kingdoms first as a distraction. Razorfen Downs would have made some sense to begin with.

The Nexus War... How did this make any sense amidst the other greater conflict. Maybe Malygos allied with Arthas for some reason? Maybe Arthas' goal was noble, and he only wanted to eradicate magic to keep the Flame Legion away? Maybe Malygos found undeath a good way to preserve his role for eternity?

So much wasted potential.
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