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  #201  
Old 10-14-2009, 12:27 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Originally Posted by Urth View Post
The following is a copy/paste of something I wrote on Maintankadin, where paladin angst reaches high fury

Requirements for Paladin units:
1. A source of Holy magic compliant with a source of light.
2. Draconian rulebooks that determine proper, virtuous behavior and the authority act on the rules' behalf.
3. A supernatural Other, that umbrellas the sinful and improper.

The scrolls of Elder Rise go on to discuss the actions of the Moon before switching back to discuss the first Druids and then the Tauren genocide at the hands of the Centaur. That the Moon, Druids, and children of Zaetar are displayed in the Archdruid's tent makes sense, but Tahu implies that there is a missing element, and that what he and Aponi discuss is not new. Perhaps there were other scrolls destroyed during their time of nomadic existence, or exist scrolls to this day, hidden in some chest or satchel.

If the Moon can birth demigod children from relations with an Ancient, manipulate Troll physiology to more closely resemble Vrykul, and establish the basis for a dominant mystery cult that survives thousands of years, then the Sun ought to exist in some capacity with autonomy in the ancient past. Since we know Tauren Paladins will be called Sunwalkers, it's simple to suggest that An'she is the source for the ancient Tauren Paladin Order. With An'she being a divine being described as the Sun, we have requirement one established. Faith in An'she trickles down as Holy Shock, but doesn't give enough viscera to justify Seal of Vengeance, much less Eye for an Eye.

At the time of Mu'sha and An'she's entrance to Azeroth, Tauren were "falling to whispers" and growing wicked. From WoWwiki: It is possible that the "whispers from deep beneath the world" are the work of the Old Gods, who are often found in lore interfering with whispers that are able to drive people insane or warlike.

If the Tauren's original civilization was being messed with by an Old God, then we have requirement three. The Old God in question could have been C'thun, or even the Old God corpse in the Master's Glaive. In any case, Old Gods are nearly always associated with corruption and shadow magics, and the answer to Shadow corruption is nearly always associated with Holy magic.

IF An'she appeared to the ancient Tauren and organized holy warriors to combat the corrupt and source of corruption at the behest of the Earthmother, then An'she is a Tauren Michael. IF An'she inspired the Tauren to establish the Rites of the Earthmother, then we have Law. IF An'she is a blindingly bright and fiery fist of Holy magic aimed at those who strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you... then we have a Tauren Seal of Vengeance, and even Eye for an Eye.

And since they only recently rediscovered these myths, it stands to reason Tahu would have them circulated amongst all the Sunwalkers, so that they might gain power from understanding their past and purpose. And so, Tauren librams.

The reason I mentioned Buffy the Vampire Slayer is because, in a way, she is a Paladin unit as well. She fights Undead according to the Watcher's orders and is magically empowered. She wasn't the first, and that she slays vampires is a fact that came after the original Slayer's creation, as a slayer of demons.

The Silver Hand is Buffy. The primitive and shamanistic First Slayer might be the Sunwalker
.


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  #202  
Old 10-14-2009, 01:02 PM
Exxile87 Exxile87 is offline

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Urth, we're buds. I like you.

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  #203  
Old 10-14-2009, 01:55 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Congratulations, Urth, you win the internet.
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  #204  
Old 10-14-2009, 06:15 PM
Nathanyel Nathanyel is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urth View Post
Requirements for Paladin units:
1. A source of Holy magic compliant with a source of light.
2. Draconian rulebooks that determine proper, virtuous behavior and the authority act on the rules' behalf.
3. A supernatural Other, that umbrellas the sinful and improper.
At least point 2 does not fit to Tauren culture, which is less restrictive in my eyes. Simplified as it's rather late over here, the mere thought of an "Order" is quite irritating. Sure, you have the druids, the shamans, the hunters and the warriors, and the druids as a recent (re)invention stand out, as only a few have dabbled into these arts, but the overall shaman theme is very strong in the whole Tauren people, with Cairne being a prime example*, as is the hunter theme, see various hunting quests, the average Tauren still learns his hunting skills, as opposed to a modern culture like the Humans', with distinctive "jobs". Not saying every Tauren could be every class, just that the borders are a lot more fluent.
To summarize, your thoughts about the direct involvement of an An'she avatar** sound good, but I'd put the Sunwalkers very far away from being an "Order" or anything too close to Light-wielding paladins, lore- and ability-wise. They are similar enough in, say, style of combat (plate, 2h weapons, direct large heals, though how to explain the bubble?) to be put into the same class ingame but not too much. Just think of how the rogue class contains different roles, assassin, thief, the various types of leather-clad melee fighters, while the hunter class comprises archer/ranger, beastmaster, ranger, rifleman etc.

* Only source I could find atm was the Tauren Chieftain article at wowwiki:
Quote:
It is unknown if all chieftains practice shamanism, but Cairne Bloodhoof is known to practice it.
** as an analogy of Elune, we still have to find out whether these are two entities, just two aspects of the "Earthmother" being, or mere myths.
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  #205  
Old 10-14-2009, 06:32 PM
Drz Drz is offline

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Quote:
It is unknown if all chieftains practice shamanism, but Cairne Bloodhoof is known to practice it.
No citation there. :| I mean are they basing it off when Cairne gets a earthquake when he pleads Earth Mother's help? =O
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  #206  
Old 10-14-2009, 06:40 PM
Nathanyel Nathanyel is offline

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Originally Posted by Drz View Post
No citation there. :|
yeah I meant to say that, too, er... I should go to bed.
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  #207  
Old 10-14-2009, 06:48 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drz View Post
No citation there. :| I mean are they basing it off when Cairne gets a earthquake when he pleads Earth Mother's help? =O
That, and that one of his greetings is "take heart, young one. The Earthmother is near." Nothing really definitive. Not even the RPGs list him as any kind of Shaman, and they let you have two classes at once.
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  #208  
Old 10-15-2009, 02:32 AM
Nathanyel Nathanyel is offline

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Well, Cairne/Chieftains had Reincarnation in War3 - while you can argue this ability was only attributed to shamans later, this "warrior" class used Mana, an indicator that it was not just a pure warrior type.
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  #209  
Old 10-15-2009, 09:53 AM
Urth Urth is offline

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Here's the total of how I weighed in on the anti/pro Tauren Paladin discussion.

First:
Quote:
As opposed to Forsaken, who are humans, from Lordaeron. Thier "Tirion Fordring or a Uther-like character" IS Tirion Fordring and Uther.

Invis is using "Crusader" in its accurate, historical, planet Earth, Middle Ages, context. Warcraft Paladins are a ham-fisted nod to Christian zealots who used their religion as an excuse to rip up the Middle East in a time when single-mindedness was a virtue.

Forsaken, due to their past as Humans of Lordaeron are intimately familiar with zealotry and prosetylization of the Holy Light, as well as armor-clad defense of the realm. They are Crusaders in the sense that they are Human and so already programmed with the cultural cues that determine how to arrogantly wield the traditionally Alliance faith of the Holy Light as a weapon.

Pushing "Paladin" onto a new framework that utilizes Sun worship and more a more holistic cultural paradigm pushes Warcraft Paladins into a completely different description. Now, they are simply "Magical Faith" empowered warriors, a reduction of sorts from the arrogant and mighty real-life signifier they were originally modeled from. It's the reduction and "flattening" of any-faith-as-paladin-power that Invisusira has serious issues with.

I'm ambivalent. I do not like that Paladins are being taken away from such a powerful historical image. It's a model that's significantly different than that of a warrior, both in method and mindset. That Warcraft Paladins have been able to hold onto that model through its relationship to the Holy Light and its opposition to the paranormal adversaries in WoW is really the "game flavor" that keeps it so tasty and fun. Forsaken Paladins, regardless of old, old lore concerns of shadow cults and plague immunity PRESERVES the traditional image model of the Warcraft Paladin.

But I really want to see how they intend to roll out Tauren Sunwalkers. Is Tahu's Sun religion somehow "tapping into the Holy Light"? Is this a reversal of the Light culture of Draenei discovering the shaman spirits? Is A'she a Naaru? Are Sunwalkers comfortable wearing plate sets emblazoned with images of the Holy Light? Is this one step in a few that will "merge" Warcraft Light religions?

In all honesty, I don't think Warcraft editorial is capable of such a potentially controversial plot twist. They felt Naaru were necessary to make Blood Elf paladins more "edgy".
Second:
Quote:
That's because Ghostcrawler promised us Aponi.

I'm surprised Invis can summarize the anti-Tauren/anti-Forsaken argument down to 2 positions. From my estimate, there's at least 4 or 5. Those that prefer Forsaken Paladins as they mesh well with existing cultural imagery. Those that prefer Tauren Paladins as they look great in plate and have great racials. Those that do not like Tauren Paladins as they are a foolish and a seemingly hackneyed approach to storytelling. Those that do not like Forsaken Paladins because they cannot parse Undead[Humanoid] from Undead[Creature]. And then there's those that have nothing important to say.

My opinion is well established, I'm part of group one, and can recognize that "Paladin" would be changed absolutely if star-worship became a viable source of holy magic. I've entered into discussions about how holy is a semi-sentient Star Wars Force or Phoenix Consciousness, but my words turn to whoosh. "Paladin" also changes dramatically if it is granted to a culture like Tauren, regardless of whether or not they find the religion of the Holy Light. It comes down to two words:

[libram toting]

Paladins are often thought of as holy warriors, preachers in plate, fists of the divine or whatever. Yes, they are granted power from faith-based sources, but that's not really the point of Paladins —they are policemen. They are roaming judiciaries in a world where the "law" is written in books, ie librams, their holy texts that determine virtue from wickedness. That they fight Undead and Demons is actually secondary to the fact they protect the Good from the Bad.

But the Tauren, as a culture, do not have "Bad". They are, as Invis says "shamanistic and nature-based": in some ways primitive, and in others transcendental. They are arguably the most Good of all the races in Warcraft, and because they are so Good, they have no NEED for Paladins.

And then there's the whole libram issue. The Tauren do not have written law to determine virtue from wickedness, they have an oral tradition that has survived their near genocide, as well as a few scrolls on Elder Rise that describe their mythology... Summarized: that Tauren Paladins would be using Librams is a huge guffaw in storytelling. Would they be "borrowing" books from the Silvermoon Library? A Tauren of Thunder Bluff can wear shiny plate and use the sunlight to empower himself, but he cannot justify words being just enough to judge his fellows. He, like the Earthmother, is kind, forgiving, and understanding.

***********
However, those same myths hanging in Elder Rise describes EXACTLY how both those issues, written Law and cultural deviance, might be absolutely appropriate to the Tauren race for expanded storytelling, and how Paladins might fit them perfectly.

When I get back from work I'll explain what I can. Have BtVS season 4 TiVod by then, ok?
And that's when I wrote the response at the top of the page. I am still pro-Forsaken Paladins as it rounds out their cultural angst, but I'm also pro-Tauren as it uncovers a dramatic and noble history to a recovering civilization. WTB more Alliance Shamans though.

Nathanyel: I'm not sure how best to answer you. Yes, I acknowledge that Tauren have a distinctly holistic relationship to nature in thier culture, but I'm suggesting that in the ancient pre-centaur genocide, they had a sect of holy warriors who followed the lead of a corporeal "god" in order to defend prehistoric Azeroth and the Tauren people from Old God whisperings. It's not an order the way the Silver Hand is an order, but it is the word I used.

A retcon of this nature is the only way I can see Tauren Paladins having a respectable entry to the story of Warcraft. Were they to invent sun worship immaculately and have paladins fall out of it, I think we'd all have a very shitty taste in our mouths. The Tauren are coming out a nomadic Dark Age, and to rediscover a history rich in victory and divine purpose may lead to a Tauren Renaissance.

Last edited by Urth; 10-15-2009 at 10:07 AM.. Reason: response to Nathanyel
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  #210  
Old 10-15-2009, 11:03 AM
cenkiss cenkiss is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urth View Post
Here's the total of how I weighed in on the anti/pro Tauren Paladin discussion.

First:


Second:


And that's when I wrote the response at the top of the page. I am still pro-Forsaken Paladins as it rounds out their cultural angst, but I'm also pro-Tauren as it uncovers a dramatic and noble history to a recovering civilization. WTB more Alliance Shamans though.

Nathanyel: I'm not sure how best to answer you. Yes, I acknowledge that Tauren have a distinctly holistic relationship to nature in thier culture, but I'm suggesting that in the ancient pre-centaur genocide, they had a sect of holy warriors who followed the lead of a corporeal "god" in order to defend prehistoric Azeroth and the Tauren people from Old God whisperings. It's not an order the way the Silver Hand is an order, but it is the word I used.

A retcon of this nature is the only way I can see Tauren Paladins having a respectable entry to the story of Warcraft. Were they to invent sun worship immaculately and have paladins fall out of it, I think we'd all have a very shitty taste in our mouths. The Tauren are coming out a nomadic Dark Age, and to rediscover a history rich in victory and divine purpose may lead to a Tauren Renaissance.
That is what i think it will be too.They always had paladins,but after running away from centaurs for ages they have lost to worship Anshe(probabaly what Tauren call Light),and now they are turning back to their old belief.
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  #211  
Old 10-15-2009, 11:50 AM
Urth Urth is offline

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Well, not that they have always had Paladins, but they used to. And in finding this, are growing a new crop of holy rollers.

Also:



For my new friend Exxile.

Last edited by Urth; 10-15-2009 at 12:36 PM..
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  #212  
Old 10-15-2009, 01:14 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
Well, Cairne/Chieftains had Reincarnation in War3 - while you can argue this ability was only attributed to shamans later, this "warrior" class used Mana, an indicator that it was not just a pure warrior type.
Yeah, but all heroes did that.
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