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  #51  
Old 06-30-2009, 11:13 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Well, let's see some evidence.


The fact of the matter is that since the alliance's foundation the Ironforge Dwarves have been the most politically stable of all factions, I see no reason why Varian has all of a sudden become the supreme commander. Wasn't the kingdom in shambles a little under a year ago due to Onyxia's machinations? How did they all of a sudden become such a grand military force when prior to TBC the Draenei swore themselves in BEFORE MAGNI rather than Anduin?
Well, the Draenei officially join the Alliance at, what, level 20? During that time the Kingdom of Stormwind was indeed, quite a mess. Let's list the things that have happened in the mean time.

-Defias wiped out
-Blackrock Orcs and Nef taken out
-Onyxia driven out of SW and killed
-A full year of off-screen time to reassemble their kingdom
-The militias we helped (like the People's Militia) joined the Stormwind Army.

They've had most of the threats to their provinces demolished, the internal threats killed, and a powerful leader installed. Combine that with having time that we're not watching them to reestablish themselves using their large standing army and their industrial base, and they can pose a threat in short order.

The problem with Stormwind wasn't that they HAD no army, it's that Onyxia was keeping it from DOING anything and the whole thing just sat in Stormwind because an army of that size was a threat to her brood in BRM.
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  #52  
Old 06-30-2009, 11:19 PM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Well, let's see some evidence.
Well, its clear there is no High General.

They haven’t gone into the details of taxation on the new alliance, but they appear to be much more separate, but nor have they made a big deal of them. The joint taxation was a major issue, repeatedly brought up by the old alliance. Nothing being said about it suggests it’s a non-issue and there may not even be such a system anymore. Each faction probably pays for its own stuff, which is why Stormwind taxes are so crippling - paying for all those icebreaker boats and such.

If you believe the RPG they tell you the alliance is so segregated they are essentially two entities: The Eastern and the Western Alliance. Eastern is basically what’s left of the old alliance, Western is the new alliance of Theramore and the Night Elves plus now the Draenei.


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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
The fact of the matter is that since the alliance's foundation the Ironforge Dwarves have been the most politically stable of all factions, I see no reason why Varian has all of a sudden become the supreme commander. Wasn't the kingdom in shambles a little under a year ago due to Onyxia's machinations? How did they all of a sudden become such a grand military force when prior to TBC the Draenei swore themselves in BEFORE MAGNI rather than Anduin?
Its because the Dwarves just hide in their mountain.

I think the real reason why the Draenei allegiance scene was in Ironforge was because it would look lame to swear loyalty to a little kid with a generic child model and simply because Ironforge had the auction house. That’s why all the alliance hung out there back when.

Also keep in mind that Onyxia was moving the military around to basically waste them. Despite that, the heroes and unofficial groups like the People’s Milita and Night Watchers handled all the problems. Varian is back, he has the military that was getting misused, and he has all the forces like the Militia at his disposal. Hence, why Gryan is a formal solider in the Stormwind military now.


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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
It's a simple reality of international politics; if one nation is officially recognized as being in charge, it automatically marginalizes the positions of the others to some degree, and none of the Alliance kingdoms seem likely to have willingly subjected themselves to such a thing, as it would be equivalent to assigning their citizens to a subservient role under another nation's ruler and people.
Consider that there has been no official recognition.

Furthermore, while it seems they may not willingly subject themselves to such a thing, likewise it seems that they have voiced no objections to it. There have been no signs of real dissention in the alliance leadership hierarchy other than that of Jaina. The other leaders seem to be hoping on the bandwagon, as there are other races represented in the alliance forces.
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  #53  
Old 06-30-2009, 11:31 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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I just find it hard to believe that Stormwind's infrastructure can go from being deliberately mismanaged, underfunded and unmaintained to be the pre-eminent military force for the alliance in the space of who knows how long? It can't be more than a year and the comics make it seem that as soon as Varian returned to Stormwind, the scourge attacked, and from there it's not much longer (couple of months?) until Wrathgate.
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  #54  
Old 06-30-2009, 11:36 PM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

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Bolvar kept it together. Varian took over and made it great.
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  #55  
Old 06-30-2009, 11:50 PM
Ornhelm Ornhelm is offline

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I like how Varian says he would rather be preparing his armies than be at the games. It makes me all warm and fuzzy when lore characters realize stupid Blizz patch gimmicks.
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  #56  
Old 06-30-2009, 11:54 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
I just find it hard to believe that Stormwind's infrastructure can go from being deliberately mismanaged, underfunded and unmaintained to be the pre-eminent military force for the alliance in the space of who knows how long? It can't be more than a year and the comics make it seem that as soon as Varian returned to Stormwind, the scourge attacked, and from there it's not much longer (couple of months?) until Wrathgate.
Stormwind's territories were left twisting in the wind, but there WERE people who stepped up to keep things together, which left them in a position to be put back in to motion fairly easily. If there had been no Gryan Stoutmantle or Ello Ebonlocke? Yeah, things would be different. But people lower on the chain held things together as best they could, until we (the players) showed up and laid the smack down on things.

Remember that the problems Stormwind dealt with are primarily early-game. The provincial's problems are all mopped up by level 30, and then at 60 we roll back in and liberate the capital, which has a huge standing army ready to lay down the law.

The army was always there. And now, the Stormwind Royal Army is strengthened by new, tested units like Stoutmantle's Westfall Brigade, which expands their strength further.
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  #57  
Old 07-01-2009, 12:24 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Gurtogg_Bloodboil View Post
Furthermore, while it seems they may not willingly subject themselves to such a thing, likewise it seems that they have voiced no objections to it. There have been no signs of real dissention in the alliance leadership hierarchy other than that of Jaina. The other leaders seem to be hoping on the bandwagon, as there are other races represented in the alliance forces.
That's the problem, though. It's all a buncha seems, without any reasoning presented in the story. And the reason behind that seems to be that Blizzard decided that for WotLK, the Night Elves and Draenei in particular would just abandon having any real racial identity and basically be tall, purple humans. We've got no story indicating what's going on in the respective lives of the races besides the humans on the Alliance side, and similarly only the orcs get any of the Horde spotlight once the Battle for Undercity is over - even the Tauren, who have the closest potential ties to the Taunka story, are reduced to being the plot equivalent of orcs with horns. There's a grand total of one Tauren involved in the Taunka plot. Then once one gets past the Dragonblight, the Taunka basicanly become "Northrend Tauren" with a different model and no story points to meaningfully set them apart.

Omitting four out of five Alliance races from having their own respective parts in the story represented is lazy (and the Explorere's League barely counts for the Alliance Dwarves, since with the Storm Peaks and Ulduar, they're as good as a neutral in the story at this point, reputation bar be damned). Why even have the other races? Based on the Alliance side of the plot in Northrend, they might as well have literally turned every player into a human for the duration of WotLK for all the story diversity that the Alliance gets out of having five unique races in its ranks these days.
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  #58  
Old 07-01-2009, 07:55 AM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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Wilfred the gnome sounds like Wallace Shawn. Im sure thats either intentional or painfully obvious to everyone else but it just clicked in my head.

He should have screamed out "inconceivable!" before being smushed.

Sorry just rambling.
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  #59  
Old 07-01-2009, 10:06 AM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

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I have to admit I like Metzen voicing Varian. He sounds so schizophrenic and badass.
"You must have me confused with the other Varian. He's not here anymore".
I think the only reason he liked being a gladiator is because he was actually allowed to kill the people who pissed him off with out repercussions. Life of a gladiator is simple indeed.
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  #60  
Old 07-01-2009, 12:31 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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People complain about Varian being the leader of the Alliance.

Wait.

He's just the leader of the Valliance Expedition, the main alliance force at Northrend. I guess all those other races inside that faction joined cause they wanted.

If he's leader of something, it's humans, nearly all the alliance humans, since refugees joined Stormwind after the 3rd war, and the remaining humans are outside the Alliance.

As far as I know, there seems to be no coalition army in neither the alliance nor the horde. Those members of other races are, mostly, mercenaries or volunteers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ornhelm View Post
I like how Varian says he would rather be preparing his armies than be at the games. It makes me all warm and fuzzy when lore characters realize stupid Blizz patch gimmicks.
Win, indeed xDDD.
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  #61  
Old 07-01-2009, 12:34 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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Despite what Velen may say, I somehow doubt that the average Draenei is happy about sacrificing a Naaru to help a bunch of Blood Elves, and they're probably not interested in peaceful coexistence with the Orcs. If they were, a trip to the Path of Glory would likely change their minds.

Among the general populace, I would think Varian is extremely popular across the board.
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  #62  
Old 07-01-2009, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
That's the problem, though. It's all a buncha seems, without any reasoning presented in the story. And the reason behind that seems to be that Blizzard decided that for WotLK, the Night Elves and Draenei in particular would just abandon having any real racial identity and basically be tall, purple humans. We've got no story indicating what's going on in the respective lives of the races besides the humans on the Alliance side, and similarly only the orcs get any of the Horde spotlight once the Battle for Undercity is over - even the Tauren, who have the closest potential ties to the Taunka story, are reduced to being the plot equivalent of orcs with horns. There's a grand total of one Tauren involved in the Taunka plot. Then once one gets past the Dragonblight, the Taunka basicanly become "Northrend Tauren" with a different model and no story points to meaningfully set them apart.

Omitting four out of five Alliance races from having their own respective parts in the story represented is lazy (and the Explorere's League barely counts for the Alliance Dwarves, since with the Storm Peaks and Ulduar, they're as good as a neutral in the story at this point, reputation bar be damned). Why even have the other races? Based on the Alliance side of the plot in Northrend, they might as well have literally turned every player into a human for the duration of WotLK for all the story diversity that the Alliance gets out of having five unique races in its ranks these days.
And you were expecting?

Really, it's always been Orcs and Humans, always. WCIII was pretty interesting and helped to broaden the scope but WoW has narrowed it once again. They tried tackling too much, then too little, then even less. The "unique" races are now just sides of a singular, building conflict.

Hopefully, Blizzard will one day do it right. And by do it right I mean have an actual team of writers for WoW alone and not a monkey, Metzen when he's burnt out from SCII and the two unannounced games, and that other guys.

Oh yeah, and they should fire Knaak.
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  #63  
Old 07-01-2009, 12:58 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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Oh yeah, and they should fire Knaak.
I thought about this and now I feel like a plum exploded in my pants.
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  #64  
Old 07-01-2009, 04:39 PM
AndyJP AndyJP is offline

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I liked Varian, he's still interesting to me, but I couldn't get behind a leader with a "kill them all, ask questions later" mentality. By the way, here's the audio clips on Youtube.
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  #65  
Old 07-01-2009, 06:02 PM
Rowan Seven Rowan Seven is offline

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So you're claiming that Orcish culture has abandoned it's lionization of aggressive warfare? Even for Saurfang, a fairly progressive Orc who, unlike the average young Orc who has never lost a war, understand the costs of battle, says that his son died the ideal death.

The Horde isn't a single-minded engine of destruction; hell, they're anything BUT single-minded. The Horde isn't about JUST combat and accruing honor by fighting progressively bigger things. It is, however, very much still about those things. To claim that the Orcs have moved past screaming "BLOOD AND GLORY AWAIT US! FOR THE HORDE! LOK'TAR OGAR!" is like claiming Varian and Thrall go to Theramore twice a week to do some man-on-man, there's no evidence to support it.
I think...you missed my point. You asked why people who are into the Horde way of things (i.e. "Horde fanboys") would dislike Varian and Garrosh, implicitly implying that "Horde fanboys" are into aggression and vainglorious acts. I responded by showing how that assumption is narrow. I can be a HUGE Horde fan and not cheer everytime somebody runs screaming into unnecessary battle. All in all, there are fans of the Alliance who dislike Varian and fans of the Horde who dislike Garrosh. Stereotyping Alliance and Horde fans paints a misleading picture.
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Old 07-01-2009, 06:45 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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No, you just like the Horde. If you only like certain aspects of something, you're able to look at it reasonably, and thus, are not a fanboy, since you can admit that the whole thing about the Horde being totally gay for blatant aggression is not a good trait.

A Horde fanboy would react much like a Clanfan does, by claiming that the only true law is power and that the Horde is stronger than anyone else and so the rule of conquest is on their side, blah blah blah honor.
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  #67  
Old 07-01-2009, 07:27 PM
Rowan Seven Rowan Seven is offline

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Originally Posted by Fordragon View Post
No, you just like the Horde. If you only like certain aspects of something, you're able to look at it reasonably, and thus, are not a fanboy, since you can admit that the whole thing about the Horde being totally gay for blatant aggression is not a good trait.

A Horde fanboy would react much like a Clanfan does, by claiming that the only true law is power and that the Horde is stronger than anyone else and so the rule of conquest is on their side, blah blah blah honor.
I was going to claim that my former, nearly obsessive interest in Warcraft and Horde lore and the money I forked over for the RPG series qualified me as a "Horde fanboy," but having looked up the common definition of the term on Wikipedia I concede your point. Apparently you have to be highly devoted AND biased to count as a fanboy. So...um, thanks for the compliment.

To be fair, though, I would argue that there are other mindsets that could characterize "Horde fanboys." The Horde is a very diverse faction, after all, and there's a lot one can go fanboyish over that has little or nothing to do with strength and conquest. I'm a fan of their simultaneous cultural complexity but thematic similarity, for example, and if I took my fondness of these elements to the absurd level of viewing the Horde solely as victims of Alliance aggression and prejudice then I'd probably be deserving of the title fanboy with its negative connotations.
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  #68  
Old 07-01-2009, 09:09 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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I suppose you have a point. Maybe I should say "Orc fanboys," but if I were to do that I would be tempted to write it as "da Orky fanboyz."

(Incidentally, if you want a great fanboy rant? PS3 owners after the new Final Fantasy went multi-platform).
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  #69  
Old 07-01-2009, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Fordragon View Post
Well, the Draenei officially join the Alliance at, what, level 20?
Officially, they joined after Neltharion was already dead and after the events of vanilla, just as the dark portal opens. It's just that game mechanics don't allow Blizzard to add ever changing zones.
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Old 07-01-2009, 11:25 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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That whole thing is such a goddamn mess now...

I'm reminded of something I read way back on the WotLK beta forums about Varian coming back. The part I recall goes a little something like that.

Bolvar: Varian, you're back!
Varian: Yeah, and let me tell you, it was a trip and a half... Bolvar, who the hell is this in the Court?
Bolvar: Him? He's a Draenei. We're bros now. Don't form an opinion yet, though, you need to meet their women first.
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  #71  
Old 07-01-2009, 11:42 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by tufy View Post
Officially, they joined after Neltharion was already dead and after the events of vanilla, just as the dark portal opens. It's just that game mechanics don't allow Blizzard to add ever changing zones.

You must mean Nefarian.

No biggie, though. It's pretty clear who you actually meant.
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  #72  
Old 07-02-2009, 07:13 AM
RobLore RobLore is offline

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I thought it was said that Exodar crashed two months after the Dark Portal was opened? Or maybe it was the other way around?

I think the Draenei officialy joined the Alliance some time after you complete the Bloodmyst quests.
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  #73  
Old 07-02-2009, 06:09 PM
Malygos Malygos is offline

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Originally Posted by AndyJP View Post
I liked Varian, he's still interesting to me, but I couldn't get behind a leader with a "kill them all, ask questions later" mentality. By the way, here's the audio clips on Youtube.
Hmm... seeing Anub'arak there, it seems as though Azjol-Nerub was merely a setback just like the Eye of Eternity.
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  #74  
Old 07-02-2009, 07:58 PM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

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So is Anubarak still working for Lich King or what?
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  #75  
Old 07-02-2009, 08:01 PM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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He is. Arthas must have reanimated him.
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