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Old 02-12-2013, 02:49 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Originally Posted by Montoya View Post
What happens when equality is reached? What happens when legitimate grievances have been taken care of? The radicals take things to extremes that no one ask for (see ACLU).
Wait since when were the ACLU "radicals"?
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  #27  
Old 02-12-2013, 02:50 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Once again Ganishka, your valuable and educated input has roused a ferocious change deep within me. I have seen the error of my ways.
Who cares whether it was valuable or educated? I don't!
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:51 PM
Torch Torch is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Who cares whether it was valuable or educated? I don't!
Nobody cares about Ganishka's posts.

Apparently now including Ganishka!
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  #29  
Old 02-12-2013, 02:52 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Originally Posted by Crazyterran View Post
I think Women should have equal pay / rights as men.

I'm Canadian though, and I'm pretty sure we have that under our Human Rights act.

However, the psychos that think men should be underneath women socially, or some of the other crazy ideas I've read, they can go straight to hell. Maybe have the female version of a castration, since they seem to imply all men should get one.

Normal people who think women should have equal pay and rights are fine. Fucking psychos (Feminazis) should gtfo.
You just suggested there that feminists who you don't agree with should be castrated. Isn't that the same kind of psychotic behavior that you're criticizing?
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:54 PM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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Originally Posted by Montoya View Post
What happens when equality is reached? What happens when legitimate grievances have been taken care of? The radicals take things to extremes that no one ask for (see ACLU).
Then people will try to maintain equality in the other direction.

But then people also have different ideas of what it means to be equal, which includes the idea that making a females equal somehow removes something from males.
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  #31  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:01 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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The main problem I have with feminism is the fact that it sounds too similar to machismo. For someone who speaks Spanish, the term feminism (Feminismo in Spanish) evokes the idea of women trying to oppress men.
Egalitarianism is a much nicer word.
(And I say this as someone who subconsciously considers women superior to men. )

Last edited by Nazja; 02-12-2013 at 03:04 PM..
  #32  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:09 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Porimlys View Post
I don't see anything in that definition that says it's not pro-equality. Women are not equal in our society, feminism is a movement who's goal (which, by the way, goes far beyond a simple dictionary description) is to alleviate that.

Quite frankly, I believe being pro-woman is good for everyone. By rejecting the ideas of "femininity" and "masculinity" it relieves us of the burden of having to conform to the gender binary or be considered wrong somehow.
I meant that it isn't pro equality because it's focus is on promoting woman. It doesn't take into account that men can have problems too, but just says that women are poor victims wronged by the evil society.

I don't see feminists saying that it's wrong that less men go to college than women, or that men are more likley to be involved in crime. Or how women are punished more leniently than men are.

And feminism leads to inequality, like how women have lower standards to get into the military than men do, or women's groups seeing fire departments because aren't easier for women.

I also dislike that a lot of people think that women should get jobs just because they are women. Like Obama's whole cabinet scandal. I think it would be nice if women had half of the positions, but they shouldn't get the job just because they are women.

I think we should all recognize that no one's opinion will be swayed. So rather than being ass's, and trying to convert each other, how 'bout we make less lofty goals, and just try to explain why we think what we do.
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  #33  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:14 PM
Fenin Dawnfire Fenin Dawnfire is offline

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How does everyone feel about the interaction of feminism and chivalry?
  #34  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Fenin Dawnfire View Post
How does everyone feel about the interaction of feminism and chivalry?
What would you define chivalry as?
  #35  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:17 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Originally Posted by Fenin Dawnfire View Post
How does everyone feel about the interaction of feminism and chivalry?
Chivalry wins because it has swords, feminism only has burning bras.
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  #36  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:21 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
I meant that it isn't pro equality because it's focus is on promoting woman.
If it promotes women so they are equal to men, it automatically promotes men, in the areas where women have more benefits, because there can be no equality otherwise.
I still understand your concerns, but that definition was pro equality.
  #37  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:22 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
I meant that it isn't pro equality because it's focus is on promoting woman. It doesn't take into account that men can have problems too, but just says that women are poor victims wronged by the evil society.
Uh, no. Feminism acknowledges that men, too, are subjected to power structures and discrimination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
I don't see feminists saying that it's wrong that less men go to college than women, or that men are more likley to be involved in crime. Or how women are punished more leniently than men are.
And have you actually educated yourself with feministic theories, or are you basing this all purely on what is prevalent in the medias you partake in?

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
And feminism leads to inequality, like how women have lower standards to get into the military than men do, or women's groups seeing fire departments because aren't easier for women.
Some feminists would claim that this is a ridiculous thing to do (such as liberal feminists). Feminists are not a homogenous group.

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
I also dislike that a lot of people think that women should get jobs just because they are women. Like Obama's whole cabinet scandal. I think it would be nice if women had half of the positions, but they shouldn't get the job just because they are women.
I agree. And so would most feminists, at least in Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
I think we should all recognize that no one's opinion will be swayed. So rather than being ass's, and trying to convert each other, how 'bout we make less lofty goals, and just try to explain why we think what we do.
I'm sure that's an easy position to take on the matter, especially if one's a white, american, protestant male.
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Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
  #38  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:24 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montoya View Post
What happens when equality is reached? What happens when legitimate grievances have been taken care of? The radicals take things to extremes that no one ask for (see ACLU).
There will always be some sort of inequality, the only solution to slowly erode gender roles until there is little left that makes any sort of gender based inequality indiscernible.

Which is why
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
This might come as a surprise but I'm a fan of cyborg theory feminism, so I guess that makes me a postmodern feminist.


Essentially, I disagree with focus on gender and sex as definite physical and psychological positions, and view them as increasingly irrelevant in the coming future, where the physical body is no longer socially important and constructed personalities are becoming the norm. That said, I am critical of those who define themselves BY their sex and/or gender (which includes transsexuals- hence my publicized feuds with Sly and Xil), and since my views are primarily egalitarian one could argue that they don't explicitly fit into "feminist".
I agree with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
I meant that it isn't pro equality because it's focus is on promoting woman. It doesn't take into account that men can have problems too, but just says that women are poor victims wronged by the evil society.

I don't see feminists saying that it's wrong that less men go to college than women, or that men are more likley to be involved in crime. Or how women are punished more leniently than men are.
Or that males being raped are under-reported, or not taken seriously, or not even considerer legally as rape. Or that women get the final decision in abortion. Or that woman are given priority over children in a divorce. Or a thousand other problems that males have.
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  #39  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:25 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
Uh, no. Feminism acknowledges that men, too, are subjected to power structures and discrimination.
I would like to see these acknowledgements. Not because I don't believe they exist but because I want to know more about them.
  #40  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:25 PM
Fenin Dawnfire Fenin Dawnfire is offline

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Well, maybe chilvary isn't the proper english word, but I was alking along the lines of treating women better than you treat men, overall. For instance, giving her your bus seat, paying the bill, being more careful with verbal and physical abuse and so on
  #41  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:26 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Ashendant View Post
I agree with this.
I would agree too, if he had left out that last part. No matter how insignificant gender may become to society, I believe people will still identify as one or another. We are humans not robots, deal with it.
  #42  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:30 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I would like to see these acknowledgements. Not because I don't believe they exist but because I want to know more about them.
Terms you could read up (I reccomend, say, google scholar for a free source) include:

Intersectionality
Patriarchy
Hegemonic Masculinities
Critical White Studies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
  #43  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:33 PM
Montoya Montoya is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Wait since when were the ACLU "radicals"?
As a minority, I have noticed that the ACLU enjoys throwing around frivolous lawsuits mixed in with their legitimate ones. I liken it to pork in our legislative process. Even things that have potentially benefited me I have thought to be wrong. For example: I don't know if I got into colleges because I deserved it, or because my name is Montoya. This bothers me.
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  #44  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:35 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Originally Posted by Fenin Dawnfire View Post
Well, maybe chilvary isn't the proper english word, but I was alking along the lines of treating women better than you treat men, overall. For instance, giving her your bus seat, paying the bill, being more careful with verbal and physical abuse and so on
I'm only interested in chivalry insofar as I get to wear armor and carry a sword. Fuck bitches.
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  #45  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:42 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenin Dawnfire View Post
Well, maybe chilvary isn't the proper english word, but I was alking along the lines of treating women better than you treat men, overall. For instance, giving her your bus seat, paying the bill, being more careful with verbal and physical abuse and so on
I don't think that you should treat specifically women better than what you would treat men, I think that everyone should be trying to be more considerate and humane when engaging with other people.
  #46  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:48 PM
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Unfortunaly, most feminists in Sweden are the bat-shit insane radical and marxist ones. You know, the ones who make theatre plays about molesting then murdering all men on the surface of the Earth. I do have the fortune to know a very liberal feminist though. He basically loves capitalism and sees it as the solution to gender inequality.

As for me, I don't really like the word "feminism". Yes, there is inequality towards women and other groups of people today. Yes, I would be concerned if there was inequality towards men or any other group aswell. Therefor, I prefer to call myself an egaliterian.
  #47  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:50 PM
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  #48  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:55 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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I think we treat people too well as it is. We need to reduce people to what they are: ambulatory meat-machines. When we dehumanize everyone equally, only then can we approach anything that could be called "problems solving" in a social sphere.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:56 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
I think we treat people too well as it is. We need to reduce people to what they are: ambulatory meat-machines. When we dehumanize everyone equally, only then can we approach anything that could be called "problems solving" in a social sphere.
Sounds like New World Order to me.
  #50  
Old 02-12-2013, 04:00 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Sounds like New World Order to me.
The NWO doesn't dehumanize equally. They just do chokeslams.
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