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  #55626  
Old 07-26-2017, 07:26 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Shekinah View Post
Yeah, hormones are a bitch. That's why they recommend at least two years of hormonal therapy before surgery. That, and surgery is much more permanent than taking pills, so it gives a person much more time to consider the decision.
I've been e-friends with a disproportionate amount of trans girls. Literally none of them ever wanted bottom surgery. Nearly all seem to just be okay with HRT and maybe an orchiectomy.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:02 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
I've been e-friends with a disproportionate amount of trans girls. Literally none of them ever wanted bottom surgery. Nearly all seem to just be okay with HRT and maybe an orchiectomy.
I play on proudmoore.
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  #55628  
Old 07-26-2017, 08:07 PM
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Do I?
Are we back to just using the forum and not all politics again? You seem to flipflop a lot on that, and it's seeming very intentional
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:12 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
I play on proudmoore.
I was once a global moderator at what was (at the time) the second-largest imageboard on the internet which happened to have what was probably one of the bigger transgender boards around. There were a lot of 'em.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:14 PM
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So did the ban make effect now? Or it needs to pass?
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  #55631  
Old 07-26-2017, 08:17 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
So did the ban make effect now? Or it needs to pass?
It has to pass with at least 2/3 votes from the mods unless Warlock vetoes it to Make SoL Great Again.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:20 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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PJ you keep saying the government is too bloated and just makes tax funded jobs for people

I challenge you to be specific, What departments, what projects, how would they be different from flubs that businesses make, etc
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:28 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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I don't think it's fair to ban any kind of ppl from the military, as long as they swear to serve the nation it shouldn't matter.

I do want to forbid women from going to the frontline though.
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  #55634  
Old 07-26-2017, 09:26 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Are we back to just using the forum and not all politics again? You seem to flipflop a lot on that, and it's seeming very intentional
I...don't understand what you mean here? I asked If I really came off as putting you guys on the defensive. Why wouldn't I use the forum? I've been posting on discord all day
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  #55635  
Old 07-26-2017, 09:35 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
I...don't understand what you mean here? I asked If I really came off as putting you guys on the defensive. Why wouldn't I use the forum? I've been posting on discord all day
I interpreted your response as saying "Do I?" to the bolded portion.

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
And my rebuttal is that many folks USE it as a damning character flaw, and that folks call democrats and liberals racist/sexist all the time, asserting our politics are just to kep people dependent or imply they can't get by without govt aid.

Regardless, you come across, both with me and with Kakwa, as trying to make us defensive while misrepresenting what we're actually saying
Which I felt was you being disingenuous because earlier I had you clarify that you were talking about politics in general, not just our behavior on the forum.
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:35 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
I interpreted your response as saying "Do I?" to the bolded portion.



Which I felt was you being disingenuous because earlier I had you clarify that you were talking about politics in general, not just our behavior on the forum.
I see.

I wasnt.

As for the bolded bit, its a fair point. Yes, conservatives at times call liberals racist and trying to keep the poor poor. fair enough. I hadnt considered that.
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  #55637  
Old 07-26-2017, 10:51 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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DoD seems to be silently upset... Looks increasingly unlikely that anyone was consulted before the president made that tweet. Nobody had any chance to make any preparation. Pentagon has no guidance. DoD can't answer any questions.
This is a pure fucking soup sandwich that the president just handed down to his closest, most-trusted, and highest-valued military individuals by a wanton tweet.
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  #55638  
Old 07-27-2017, 01:22 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
DoD seems to be silently upset... Looks increasingly unlikely that anyone was consulted before the president made that tweet. Nobody had any chance to make any preparation. Pentagon has no guidance. DoD can't answer any questions.
This is a pure fucking soup sandwich that the president just handed down to his closest, most-trusted, and highest-valued military individuals by a wanton tweet.
Its funny, because I read earlier on MSN that it was for his wal and people suggested it to him
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  #55639  
Old 07-27-2017, 06:33 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
PJ you keep saying the government is too bloated and just makes tax funded jobs for people

I challenge you to be specific, What departments, what projects, how would they be different from flubs that businesses make, etc
I am pretty sure we have had this conversation before but you are going to have to give me a moment when I am not busy.
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  #55640  
Old 07-27-2017, 07:45 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Its funny, because I read earlier on MSN that it was for his wal and people suggested it to him
Estimates are it costs more for one predator drone than it costs for all the trans folks in the military doesn't it? It's not like it saves much money comparatively.
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:30 AM
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Estimates are it costs more for one predator drone than it costs for all the trans folks in the military doesn't it? It's not like it saves much money comparatively.
Apparently the military spends five times more government money on Viagra than it does on the medical care for transgender troops.
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  #55642  
Old 07-27-2017, 09:42 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Oh god, it'd be hilarious if it weren't so horrifying.
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  #55643  
Old 07-27-2017, 09:57 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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The military doesn't exist to pay out benefits. Healthcare is offered because healthy people do better at a more physically demanding job and even more technical ones. They took out my wisdom teeth because it would prevent complications from arrising if I was overseas so there was a defense necessity there. Gender reassignment surgery makes you undeployable and if you can't deploy it is standard policy to remove you from service with a medical discharge. This would be carving out a special exception to that rule. I hope Trump's tweet is elaborated on but you are making false comparisons and arguing in bad faith.

Your argument would make more sense if it was medicaid or something. It isn't the cost that is an issue. We are talking about a few hundred people. Even a million dollar surgery wouldn't cost that much when we are talking about such small numbers.
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  #55644  
Old 07-27-2017, 10:19 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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It's not 'a few hundred people' it's several thousand. And as has been pointed out, the military spends more on viagra than on trans service members.

And then it turns out Trump never actually talked to the DoD

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...41029?lo=ap_a1

Quote:
There will be “no modifications” to the military’s transgender policy as a result of President Donald Trump’s declared ban on transgender men and women, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs said in a message to top military officers on Thursday -- the latest sign of the disarray following the commander-in-chief's abrupt announcement.

Marine Gen. Joe Dunford also wrote in the message, which was sent to the chiefs of the military branches and senior enlisted leaders, that the military will continue to “treat all of our personnel with respect.”
What an incompetent bastard we have for our President
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  #55645  
Old 07-27-2017, 11:06 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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fwiw, that shouldnt be allowed either.
Quote:
Estimates are it costs more for one predator drone than it costs for all the trans folks in the military doesn't it? It's not like it saves much money comparatively.
Not military. Republicans, who also threatened to further disrupt the spending bill if he didnt.
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  #55646  
Old 07-27-2017, 11:21 AM
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I'll prefix the following thusly: i have no desire to join the topic, i'm merely dumping some oppinions / information. I may respond to questions adressed to me but other than that i'm in and out.


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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
If testosterone really makes your bones denser, I wonder how long before scientists start tailoring things so that women can choose to have stronger bones without having to be called a man.
Transwomen, especially after the testicles got removed, actually do have to take suplements to prevent brittle bones. I did not read up on whether or not estrogen has the same effect for cis women (i would assume so, otherwise everyone would crush their pelvis during child birth) but testosterone is definitely important for bone density. Thankfully modern medicine can help a girl out.



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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Not really.

Because, as always, its more complicated than right or wrong.

Though, note, I think theres only about ~3000 trans soldiers in active and nonactive duty, so its a bit of a non issue either way.
I'd say it's about ~3000 non issues, which looks like a good-sized chunk of issues for non-issues. Are these people getting the full after-service benefits when Trump boots them? It's also not just about the people already in but also trans people who want to join in the future. A common theme you hear from american teenagers who want to serve is being able to pay for their education once they're done. I did not do the research if that's just a Hollywood-thing (though knowing America i expect it's an exaggerated reality) but you get the point - aside from once again kicking trans-rights (which, ideally, should be equal rights but sadly that isn't happening under that president) down the crapper you're taking away a (in america, anyways) respected career choice. The social implications of this are much, much worse than the actual ban.



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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You have to go in as your biological sex and leave as your biological sex.
I'll be going into transition in a bit, but my comment to YOU is: why? If a transperson is capable of doing their job what's the problem with transitioning during service? (Other than it probably being a minor paperwork, i guess. And if they're not capable of doing their job, well, do what you do with every other soldier: boot them.)


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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
I've been e-friends with a disproportionate amount of trans girls. Literally none of them ever wanted bottom surgery. Nearly all seem to just be okay with HRT and maybe an orchiectomy.
-ish.
I don't have any numbers about it but from what i gather in trans-related forums and sites is that the "being cool without bottom surgery" is a fairly american thing - because it costs an arm, a leg and your grandma for americans. However, that is not to say that it doesn't happen - many transpeople go without it out of simplicity (it IS a major, irreversable surgery that takes a while to fully heal) or lack of disphoria even if their insurance would pay for it. For others it's simply not a priority (i do include myself in that, it's kinda planned as the capping stone).


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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Gender reassignment surgery makes you undeployable and if you can't deploy it is standard policy to remove you from service with a medical discharge.
GRS should be treated like any other standard medically adviced operation. If that means medical discharge, permanent or not, then so be it. It's not like they have to do it while on active duty, though waiting times can potentially be a bitch. However, you'd be surprised how little undeployment time there would be. You wouldn't be waiting to see if you can still get an orgasm or not, or find out how the new plumming works; once the tissue has healed up into a non-tearable form, which might take a couple of weeks tops, you're generally back to work. From there, depending on the method, it can take up to a few years to heal up to normal but you're generally back at work within weeks, rarely months. I do not know how medical discharge works or what the US Army does if a soldier needs his or her spleen taken out but generally i'd assume it makes more sense to put a soldier you put a good amount of money in on medical leave for a couple of weeks and have them return afterwards than booting them, needing to pay for after-service benefits immediately and then having to replace them with fresh meat.


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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
AFAIK, Tri-Care legally cant cover transistions. They can do hormonal treatment and mental guidance for gender dysphoria, but sex change operations arent covered.
Transition is a catch-all term used to describe any and/or all of the above. It generally means the transition (get it?) of living as your asigned gender to your "preferred"* gender. (* i don't like that term but for ease of language we're using it.) This can mean both medical and social transition, and usually means both when medical aid is available. Any and all surgeries are merely a part of Transition. How important it is is up to the individual; as others pointed out many transpeople don't do it at all, either out of choice, convenience, social stigma or money, others can't even call their a and resort to calling it a clitoris (and vice versa). Basically: body disphoria is different for everyone and it's what you're actually treating with Transition.

There's an untyped paragraph about sex, genders and how modern science punches a big hole into the "two sexes" ideas anyway but i don't feel comfortable writing about it without reading up on it first, and i won't do that because A i'm lazy, B also busy and C i'm already regretting posting here as-is. Suffice it to say that both "Gender Reassignment Surgery" and "Sex Reassignment Surgery" should probably fall out of use for being inaccurate both medically and, increasingly, legally.

Elaborating on the latter: i suspect part of the reason why people just assume that every trans-person pursues surgery of any capacity (aside from Hollywood) is the fact that in the (even relatively recent) past, bottom surgery was actually REQUIRED to legally change your gender in many, many countries (and it probably still is, not counting the ones that stone you to death anyway). Thanks to the laws (very, very slowly) catching up to modern science (often times catching up to ten, twenty, thirty years old modern science, but hey, it's progress) it is now usually up to the individual if they want to go that far instead of being legally pressured into it.


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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Fair enough.

AFAIK, Phalloplasties arent exactly up to snuff, AND you continually have to go back to have rods replaced and such.

I dunno about mtf
This is a trapfall that i myself have unwillingly fallen into myself until recently. The trouble is that FTM surgery has apparently achieved incredible new standards.... in the last decade or so. If you want to check how long it takes for Modern Science (trademark) to take hold in public knowledge just look at any modern science book and count the feathered dinosaurs; you'll be lucky if you find an Archeopterix.
So, yeah, short version: we all have some reading to do and shouldn't spread that around anymore, and i include myself in that.
No rod replacements as far as i know. I wouldn't even know where they'd put one, i'd suspect if anything they'd use an internal pump.


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Originally Posted by Shekinah View Post
Supposedly, it's easier to dig a hole than build a pole.
It's easier to just swap the ' parts around and get rid of the nads, yeah. Having said that they're apparently doing wonderful jobs with flesh transplants and medical tattoos now.


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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
There are still... Issues. Like it tries to heal itself so people have to put something in there a few hours a day to "dilate" or something. If you feel brave, hit up google images and see what they look like now. They're pretty convincing.
I know too much about this subject.
This is correct. To my understanding it wouldn't actually close up entirely but without dilating the orifice will lose depth and some of it's (already limited) ability to stretch. However, thanks to the flood of female hormones, the whole area will eventually turn into a proper , minus the obvious things that weren't there before. This includes stuff like the bacterial milleu inside, contracting, (a little) lubrication during arousal (depending on the method chosen) and, most importantly, the body will mostly leave it alone in terms of healing; you'll get some minor loses without dilating, as stated above, but after a year or two it's no longer a "MASTURBATE DAILY OR YOU'LL LOSE YOUR ! YOUR IS HAUNTED!"-kind of deal.
You'll also only need to dilate weekly or even less down the line; at first you're dilating several times a day mostly to keep the body from overdoing the healing. It takes a while until it understands that this is now a , but eventually it gets the general idea and happily starts producing the right bacteria.


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Originally Posted by Shekinah View Post
Yeah, hormones are a bitch. That's why they recommend at least two years of hormonal therapy before surgery. That, and surgery is much more permanent than taking pills, so it gives a person much more time to consider the decision.
I cannot speak for trans-guys but i'm celebrating my four week aniversary of HRT tomorrow and i can at least confirm that my T-Blocker (Androcur) was kicking the crap out of me for the first two weeks. Proper adjustment would probably help with that but my first check up appointment is in... September? It's a while off, anyways, so i'm stuck as-is now. I'd expect a soldier transitioning during service would have much, much more frequent check ups to prevent HRT from interfering with their duty too much.
Having said that, yes, eventually the HORMONE-half of HRT will catch up to your fat and muscles. If you're taking estrogen, you'll lose musclemass (unless you keep yourself fit, which i recon wouldn't be a problem in the military); if you're taking testosterone, you'll have an easier time bulking up (again, if you keep yourself fit, which i recon wouldn't be a problem in the military.). None of this should pose a major (or even minor) problem if given the right attention. Worst case scenario SHOULD be: you boot them for not being able to do their job. Not "boot them because i don't like them".

I regret this post already.
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Old 07-27-2017, 01:41 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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The CSAF sent out an email today to everyone in the USAF in response to being blindsided by the twitter policy announcement.

"To All Airmen,
Secretary Wilson and I would like to emphasize that all Airmen will be treated with dignity and respect as we work through the potential policy changes referenced by the Chairman in his message below to military members.

>From: CJCS
>To: Service Chiefs, Commanders and Senior Enlisted Leaders

>I know there are questions about yesterday's announcement on the transgender policy by the President. There will be no modifications to the current policy until the President's direction has been received by the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary has issued implementation guidance.
>In the meantime, we will continue to treat all of our personnel with respect. As importantly, given the current fight and the challenges we face, we will all remain focused on accomplishing our assigned missions.

David L. Goldfein, Gen, USAF 21st Chief of Staff"

This is what actual leadership looks like. It takes more than 140 characters.
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  #55648  
Old 07-27-2017, 02:54 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
I don't think it's fair to ban any kind of ppl from the military, as long as they swear to serve the nation it shouldn't matter.

I do want to forbid women from going to the frontline though.
Of course you do. And you're not the only one, although for what may be different reasons.

Anyway, am I the only one who wouldn't mind seeing Jeff Sessions fired? Or at least demoted to a role that he can no longer do damage to. I also want to see this "holy hell" that's been promised. Go all Illinois politics, let's see how much you guys can fuck this country up for petty reasons!
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Old 07-27-2017, 03:13 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Originally Posted by Shekinah View Post
Of course you do. And you're not the only one, although for what may be different reasons.

Anyway, am I the only one who wouldn't mind seeing Jeff Sessions fired? Or at least demoted to a role that he can no longer do damage to. I also want to see this "holy hell" that's been promised. Go all Illinois politics, let's see how much you guys can fuck this country up for petty reasons!
I just think it's too dangerous for women to go there, men should be able do well enough to protect the nation.
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Old 07-27-2017, 03:32 PM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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I just think it's too dangerous for women to go there, men should be able do well enough to protect the nation.
Bullets and IED kill men as easily as women.
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