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  #5376  
Old 07-23-2017, 05:11 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
To the surprise of no one GRRM confirmed Winds of Winter won't be this year and that he 'hopes' it'll be out by next.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/544709.html


At this point I don't expect the books to ever finish.
We need another forty Wild Cards books first.
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  #5377  
Old 07-23-2017, 08:15 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I sympathize with him. Serials are a goddamn nightmare and I've sworn never to publish any of my writing until everything in its continuity is nailed down.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #5378  
Old 07-23-2017, 11:53 AM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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I sympathize with him. Serials are a goddamn nightmare and I've sworn never to publish any of my writing until everything in its continuity is nailed down.
Yea I think he loves the world he created but he has no idea how to tie up the overly complicated story he's created.
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  #5379  
Old 07-23-2017, 12:02 PM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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At this point I'd rather he made his peace with his inability to finish the serie and write more novellas.
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  #5380  
Old 07-23-2017, 02:55 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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At this point I'd rather he made his peace with his inability to finish the serie and write more novellas.
He should have hired a ghostwriter a decade ago
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  #5381  
Old 08-09-2017, 11:05 AM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Beginning a new project: I'm going to start collecting all of the known sources that reference the Deep Ones and their squisher minions - in a similar style to other compilations I've assembled on Aerys+Joanna and the Crow's Eye. Most of the references to the Deep Ones and their watery empire are found in the World of Ice and Fire book as they seem to be a later-invention by George - so the compilation will cover things like the Iron Islands, Oldtown, Lorath, Yeen, the Thousand Isles, the Isle of Toads and Crackclaw Point - with some other sources from A Feast for Crows (primarily the Brienne one where Dick Crab explains the nature of squishers)

I may also use Photoshop to label a map of all the known activity of the Deep Ones - so as to help get a sense of the geography of their empire in the Dawn Age. Then I mean to post the completed work on the ASoIaF subreddit and here if people are interested.
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  #5382  
Old 08-09-2017, 11:18 AM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

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I'm certainly interested.
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  #5383  
Old 08-09-2017, 07:04 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Very interested.
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  #5384  
Old 08-09-2017, 10:12 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Pretty much finished collecting them all - as far as I can tell. Now I just need to trim the quotes and write up the information. I was already fairly familiar with most of the content I was researching - but there were a few new things that stuck out to me. Such as there being evidence of ancient Deep One activity on the Basilisk Isles and Naath; as there are ruined oily black-stone fortresses on those isles too.

Some content is left ambiguous as to whether the Deep Ones are involved there or not - such as the island of Leng with its supposed subterranean monsters that the Empress consorts with. Or the city of Yeen on Sothoryos - but the main objection to those two places would be their distance from the deep sea; as the squishers seem to have only been sent against cities directly on the coast. Asshai could likewise have been a Deep One vassal-city - but there's just not enough evidence either way to prove it.

The home of the sea dragons is suggested to be the deep Sunset Sea though according to one source - which makes sense as its the biggest (and presumably) deepest sea in the known world.

Last edited by Shaman; 08-09-2017 at 10:59 PM..
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  #5385  
Old 08-10-2017, 08:52 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I'm pretty sure Sothoryos is its own weird thing. I don't think the marine nightmares of the squishies have much jurisdiction over the jungle nightmares of the endless green.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #5386  
Old 08-10-2017, 07:54 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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I'm pretty sure Sothoryos is its own weird thing. I don't think the marine nightmares of the squishies have much jurisdiction over the jungle nightmares of the endless green.
Yes that was my feeling too - because although Yeen is technically adjacent to a river and could thus feasibly have been raided by squishers in the ancient past; the climate of Sothoryos just seems so hostile to non-native life that I don't believe the Deep Ones could have had much success in the Green Hell. Yeen must be the ruined wreck of some ancient capital that was destroyed by the brindled men.

However it is suggested that the squishers were the original inhabitants of the nearby Basilisk Isles - as they've left their black stone ruins along the Isle of Tears, Isle of Toads and Ax Isle. Its said by one source that these 'hint at some ancient civilization, but little is known of these vanished men of the Dawn Age' and that any of its survivors were 'soon put to the sword' by the first corsairs. So we don't know how exactly, but at some point the sea dragons lost their empire to men.

Also one correction about something I said in my previous post: I had said that there was a black stone fortress on the island of Naath, which is true, but I had falsely attributed this structure to the Deep Ones when actually it is explicitly stated in the World of Ice and Fire that it was in fact the Valyrians who had built it. So no history of squishers on Naath; as far as anyone can tell.
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  #5387  
Old 08-11-2017, 07:02 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
Also one correction about something I said in my previous post: I had said that there was a black stone fortress on the island of Naath, which is true, but I had falsely attributed this structure to the Deep Ones when actually it is explicitly stated in the World of Ice and Fire that it was in fact the Valyrians who had built it. So no history of squishers on Naath; as far as anyone can tell.
Remind me again - I recall that WoIaF made some comparison between the Valyrians' black stone and the squishies' black stone, but I can't recall if that comparison was used to illustrate how similar the two were or how different. That is, there are obvious superficial similarities, but I can't remember if the historians concluded there were too many fundamental differences to say they were built using the same methods.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #5388  
Old 08-11-2017, 07:51 AM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Remind me again - I recall that WoIaF made some comparison between the Valyrians' black stone and the squishies' black stone, but I can't recall if that comparison was used to illustrate how similar the two were or how different. That is, there are obvious superficial similarities, but I can't remember if the historians concluded there were too many fundamental differences to say they were built using the same methods.
I've said this before a couple of times in the past - but my understanding of those black stone structures is that the ability to shape stone at will was just another form of magic that various cultures and races once had access to in the Dawn Age; and that this magic was powered (as almost all other magic on Planetos seems to be) by human sacrifice. This would explain why we see so many of those black stone ruins all over the world and in such disparate styles and locations. But the quickest way of telling apart who built each of them is read how the black stone is described: the ones raised by the Valyrians are said to be dry and flaky (e.g. Dragonstone) whereas the ones assembled by the sea dragons' squisher minions are said to have an oily feel (e.g. the Isle of Toads).

Another way of distinguishing the creators of these structures is that the black stone that was shaped by Valyrians were made into very elaborate and ornate shapes - while the style of the Deep Ones is more crude and functional.

Last edited by Shaman; 08-11-2017 at 07:57 AM..
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  #5389  
Old 08-15-2017, 09:54 AM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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I finished my research essay on the sea dragons and squishers if anyone wants to read it - I named it 'Empire of Sea' to give the work a flashy title.
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  #5390  
Old 08-16-2017, 08:39 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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- I highly suggest you look at the ASoIaF forums, they have tons of discussion about deeplings and oily stones and krakens, full of references and sources.

- How do we feel about there being raptors, king kongs, and giant spiders in Sothoryos??

- Take a look at this post! I think it would make for an amazing story.
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  #5391  
Old 08-16-2017, 09:29 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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- How do we feel about there being raptors, king kongs, and giant spiders in Sothoryos??
Saddened that we'll never see books written in that part of the ASoIaF universe.
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  #5392  
Old 08-16-2017, 09:47 AM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Saddened that we'll never see books written in that part of the ASoIaF universe.
Depending on the way the timeline works out in The Winds of Winter, the closest we may get to Sothoryos are some PoV chapters set in the Summer and Basilisk Isles. We hear towards the end of A Feast for Crows that Euron has been crowned as the new corsair king of the Basilisk Isles that he has raided Tall Trees Town - so if these events didn't happen off-screen, through Aeron we might see first-hand this reaving campaign across the southern seas.

Last edited by Shaman; 08-16-2017 at 09:53 AM..
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  #5393  
Old 08-22-2017, 07:19 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Gold (War3) (Double post - but its been a week)

I've decided what subject I'm going to attempt to tackle in my next ASoIaF research essay: The Mad King's lust for Joanna Lannister and his jealousy of Tywin. As I said in the Game of Thrones thread, I don't particularly care one way or the other about Tyrion's parentage - but there does seem to be quite strong textual evidence that Aerys raped Joanna at 272AC in King's Landing. So I mean to collect all of the relevant sources in one essay and let people decide for themselves.

The most common objection I've read to this claim about Aerys and Joanna is that the reader simply wouldn't wish it to be true - which unfortunately just isn't a relevant complaint. Say someone happened to believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents irrevocably ruined their perception of Jon's relationship with Ned - that wouldn't mean we should dismiss the dozens of sources that suggest the opposite was true. Textual criticism means we must dismiss our own personal biases and preferences and instead attempt to gauge the author's own intent based on the text we have been given.

I'm tentatively going to call the essay 'Promise me, Tywin' because I believe that name would successfully compare the similarities and stark differences with R+L=J; while also being plausible-enough that it could actually have been something Joanna said on her deathbed.
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  #5394  
Old 10-04-2017, 07:33 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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I have an exert here from a much larger essay that I am writing if anyone cares to read - this particular bit addresses who the most likely suspects were for the poisoning of Hizdahr's honeyed locusts during the events at Daznak's Pit. The italicized bits are the direct sources from the books (my references didn't copy over easily when I copy-pasted this extract from Microsoft Word - so apologies that my sources are not clear here):

'...Alternatively it may be that the poisonous locusts were intended neither for Daenerys nor Hizdahr; but were instead a personal plot of revenge against Strong Belwas by the kin of Oznak zo Pahl in retaliation for their family-member’s humiliating defeat during the siege of Meereen. Oznak’s uncle was ‘the richest man in Meereen’ while his father commanded the city guard – Oznak’s father then ‘died defending the gates’ while three of his uncles were among the hundred and sixty-three masters who were crucified on Meereen’s plaza. The Shavepate believed that the house of Pahl were Daenerys’ greatest enemies among the Meereenese nobility as their family had been reduced to “Bitter old women with a taste for blood.” The most direct evidence that suggests the Pahls poisoned the locusts was that Daenerys’ journey to Daznak’s Pit was temporarily interrupted by an overturned palanquin outside the pyramid of Pahl, giving an opportunity for Hizdahr’s locusts to be swapped for the poisoned ones during the confusion, as Ser Barristan himself stated at the time that “I do not like this halt. This may be some trap.” It was soon after this interruption that Strong Belwas began sweating uncontrollably when they had arrived at the Pit.'

Last edited by Shaman; 10-04-2017 at 07:38 PM..
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  #5395  
Old 10-04-2017, 11:13 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Not bad at all, pretty convincing!

I for one love reading theories, so bring them on!
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  #5396  
Old 10-16-2017, 04:45 PM
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Roy Dotrice died today
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  #5397  
Old 10-18-2017, 09:21 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Roy Dotrice died today
Huh. Wouldn't have guessed he was in his nineties.

Still, always a shame.
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  #5398  
Old 01-11-2018, 04:16 AM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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So where does everyone stand on the Pink Letter from Jon XIII ADWD? I think I have concluded by now that it was almost-certainly Mance Raydar who wrote the letter; and not Ramsay. There are a few bits of evidence from the text that point towards Mance:
  • Whoever wrote the letter knows about the plan to send Mance and his six spearwives to Winterfell to rescue "Arya" (Jayne Poole); when only Mance, Melisandre, Jon and Stannis should know about this
  • The letter demands that Jon send him "my bride", the "wildling princess" and his "little prince" - why would Ramsay want Mance's family?
  • The letter addresses the Night's Watch as "black crows" while only the Free Folk use this expression
  • Mance Rayder is the only specific name mentioned in the letter (other than Ramsay Bolton); everyone else is referred to by a disparaging nickname
  • Tormund believes that the letter "Might be a skin o' lies." - citing that if he had a quill and ink he could claim his "member was long and thick as me arm" but it would still be untrue.
  • Jon makes note of the fact that the letter "Knows about Mance Rayder"
The part that puzzles me still is the why of it; I do not know why Mance would write the letter other than it must be some part of Stannis' plan to take Winterfell; because Mance is enslaved to Melisandre and so he can do nothing without their approval.

Last edited by Shaman; 01-11-2018 at 04:21 AM..
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  #5399  
Old 01-11-2018, 11:06 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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I just hope Jon's dead for good in the books. Not that I hate the character, I just don't like the idea of another resurrection. His death was really well written and opens more story potential than his resurrection.
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