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Old 04-21-2017, 09:42 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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So why do people think communism or even socialism is inherently altruistic or compassionate? Even when it fails or falls short its proponents think it deserve consolation points for being well intentioned as if they are the only people that are. Alternatively if you advocate something else you maybe right but it makes you an asshole for some reason.

Conceptually it really doesn't seem to be anymore pure. Both capitalism and communism have their idealistic forms. Both are very materialistic though. Communism wants what other people have while capitalism wants people to trade for it.

So for me it is really hard to feel sorry for promoters of communism. If they don't have as much money as someone else I just don't see that as an issue. They are the ones that are putting the material on a pedestal by wanting what other people have. You can have less and still make the best of life. You don't need to tear other people down.

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Old 04-21-2017, 09:46 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Republicans are Red too.
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:47 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I think most people just confuse socialism with welfare capitalism because whenever anyone advocates for any sort of social or welfare program, an angry swarm of conservatives descend upon them calling them socialist pinko communists. They just decided to "own" it.
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:58 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Republicans are Red too.
Republicans are wise elephants though.

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I think most people just confuse socialism with welfare capitalism because whenever anyone advocates for any sort of social or welfare program, an angry swarm of conservatives descend upon them calling them socialist pinko communists. They just decided to "own" it.
A lot of conservatives have a distrust of regulatory and welfare body of the government the same way a lot of liberals distrust the police and military.

A lot of the socialist pinko stuff came from the cold war when Democrats supported détente, were apologetic, or were even sympathetic towards the Soviet Union.
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Old 04-21-2017, 10:02 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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A lot of conservatives have a distrust of regulatory and welfare body of the government the same way a lot of liberals distrust the police and military.

A lot of the socialist pinko stuff came from the cold war when Democrats supported détente, were apologetic, or were even sympathetic towards the Soviet Union.
No, that's just when the right-wing types started calling anything public "socialist/communist." If Eisenhower's presidency had been a few years later, his interstate highway system would have been attacked as if the Soviets were building it themselves.
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Old 04-21-2017, 10:05 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I think most people just confuse socialism with welfare capitalism because whenever anyone advocates for any sort of social or welfare program, an angry swarm of conservatives descend upon them calling them socialist pinko communists. They just decided to "own" it.
Yeah this too, I've never advocated communism but people keep telling me I'm a communist? Or putting the onus on me to defend communism?
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Old 04-22-2017, 02:39 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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A lot of the socialist pinko stuff came from the cold war when Democrats supported détente, were apologetic, or were even sympathetic towards the Soviet Union.
You realize that the word "Detente" and the policy were a creation of Nixon and Ford ?
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Old 04-22-2017, 03:48 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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So why do people think communism or even socialism is inherently altruistic or compassionate?
Because they haven't lived it and preach it all the while being surrounded by capitalist products, and/or adopting wild appearances they'd be reeducated for (i.e. dreadlocks, rainbow hair, leather clothes etc.) And unlike those idiots in the east they believe they can implement it better due to showcasing us as failed experiments.

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Old 04-22-2017, 03:53 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Because they haven't lived it and preach it all the while being surrounded by capitalist products, and/or adopting wild appearances they'd be reeducated for (i.e. dreadlocks, rainbow hair, leather clothes etc.) And unlike those idiots in the east they believe they can implement it better due to showcasing us as failed experiments.
What do you think of my idea of "socialism" becoming a term abused so much that fans of welfare capitalism and other similar ideologies have taken it up as a sort of symbol due to being attacked and called such?
I feel like it's a Godwin's Law situation we never paid any attention to.
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Old 04-22-2017, 08:22 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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No, that's just when the right-wing types started calling anything public "socialist/communist." If Eisenhower's presidency had been a few years later, his interstate highway system would have been attacked as if the Soviets were building it themselves.
Trump has advocated infrastructure projects and no one says that. I think you are engaging in hyperbole. I don't think Republicans have ever advocated anarchism. Most of the things Democrats fear monger are never mentioned by Republicans as something they want to remove and Republic governors generally support. Indiana likes to fund roads with a gas tax or has been talking about a vehicle tax because it puts the burden on people to fund the roads that use them the most. Toll roads are a similar idea.
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Old 04-22-2017, 08:25 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Trump has advocated infrastructure projects and no one says that.
Well that's because people are sure they're going to be pork projects for companies without ever actually finishing the work or doing good jobs.

Because no one trusts Trump because he's a liar and steals from charities and college students.
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Old 04-22-2017, 12:08 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Well that's because people are sure they're going to be pork projects for companies without ever actually finishing the work or doing good jobs.

Because no one trusts Trump because he's a liar and steals from charities and college students.
My point was that Republicans don't call infrastructure socialist
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Old 04-22-2017, 02:39 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Seriously fuck whoever renamed the thread.

Fuck them in the eye socket.
Stab them, then fuck the knife hole.

I was excited for some Red Dead 2 news.

Not this shit.
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Old 04-22-2017, 02:57 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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My point was that Republicans don't call infrastructure socialist
Ehhhh...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.8ff94242e3fd
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Old 04-22-2017, 03:00 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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You are silly.
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Old 04-22-2017, 03:08 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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You are silly.
That's as may be.
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Old 04-23-2017, 05:30 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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There is little to hate about: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

The thing is, it doesn't quite work out. It sounds awesome and I hope it is true one day thanks to automation but in the meantime the truth remains. People are shitty. That is why most reasonable people don't want full equality and fewer still want idealistic Communism. They just think a CEO does not do 3000x the work of the worst paid employee. Indeed there is no job on Earth worth 3000x as much as any other job in the eye of those people.
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Old 04-23-2017, 05:33 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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But capitalism is just about mutual and consensual trade and private ownership. You don't have to measure yourself up to other people. That level of freedom is just as pure an idealistic as that phrase.
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:48 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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But capitalism is just about mutual and consensual trade and private ownership. You don't have to measure yourself up to other people. That level of freedom is just as pure an idealistic as that phrase.
In theory yes. In practice, no. Capitalism, by definition, is a trade system based around the capitalist holding the keys. You are saying "capitalism" but actually describing a free trade and barter system that only exists in a vacuum. In actual globalized anarcho-capitalism, the economic system we live in today, one party always has an edge. The majority of the financial sector, the largest revenue-driving business in the world, is based on making profit off the debt of others as well as speculating on other's work - something only possible with, that's right, a hefty amount of capital. We could go into how nowadays you don't even have to actually own capital to be a capitalist, since most speculation runs on borrowed money and fiat potential, but the bottom line is simply this:

What you describe as the ideal free system where everyone has the liberty to engage in the market system equally does not exist. In order to truly be "free" to act within the trade system, you need to have the capability to do so. Meaning, yes, you guessed it, capital. Hence why we live in capitalism. Which boils down to the majority of the population tolerating it since they get enough out of it while the major profit and wealth goes to the successful capitalist. As the system continues to dwindle and the capitalist strangles more profit out of it while the supporting labour force loses more and more, it becomes pretty obvious how onesided this system truly is.

As for communism - I think your main issue is that you are conflating certain terms with each other, as has been pointed out before in this thread. Neither system has ever existed in "ideal" conditions ever, no capitalist system has thusfar survived without at least moderate socialist concessions (healthcare, education, insurance, pension, unemployment provisions etc), and no communist system has survived without centralized banking and some form of trade. This is of course because the capitalist system is de facto impossible to uphold without ending in the collapse of society, if not tempered by socialist measures or let's just say it, plain common sense. And because a communist system can only work when 100% of the population has: equal levels of education, awareness, power and therefore consent, and all resources required are able to be produced domestically. Since neither is possible, a communist system is not truly possible either.

People that support socialized healthcare and pensions etc are not communists. The concept behind these is, however, an altruistic one, yes. It's the idea that we actually make sure everyone gets their fair share of the cake in some way. If you do not let this notion strongly temper a capitalist society, you may as well just degenerate into corporate oligarchic anarchy, which to be fair we are well on the way to.

I must correct a major mistake you make btw: communism is not about "wanting what others have". It is about postulating that a community's resources are not owned by any one individual, not about taking away from others. Nobody owns the earth's resources, and nobody owns another human being - yet under capitalism our paradigm has still shifted to that assumption, which is ludicrous. Our base motivation has shifted from survival and the wellbeing of the whole to the accumulation of wealth by the individual, often at the expense of others, and more pressingly at the expense of the ecosystem.

You say "you can do well with less", and I say sure, you can. To a degree. How well can you do when you can't afford healthcare and suffer a deadly disease? How well can you do when you are born into an area that does not offer you the same educational chances others do, and employment options are limited? How well can you do when you cannot afford the education you require to succeed in life, simply due to the parents you are born to? Now look on the flipside - why do so many have to tolerate these restricting conditions to life, for no fault of their own, while a few have so much more than they will ever need to live in wealth and security?

The ability to "do well" for yourself requires certain conditions. When you handwave those conditions away, then capitalism suddenly looks a lot more fair than it really is.
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