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  #26  
Old 04-11-2014, 10:46 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
no point blaming the alliance for vol'jins lack of skill, there were certainly enough alliance leaders in the siege who did little themselves, though I don't recall them sending waves of the soldiers to there deaths without a plan.
Ah, but they needed to make Tyrande look good after the whole ALP fiasco.

And as "A Little Patience" taught us, making one leader look good by making another look stupid never backfires at all!

And it did have to be a Horde leader, else the Alliance would dislike that.
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  #27  
Old 04-11-2014, 10:48 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Ah, but they needed to make Tyrande look good after the whole ALP fiasco.

And as "A Little Patience" taught us, making one leader look good by making another look stupid never backfires at all!

And it did have to be a Horde leader, else the Alliance would dislike that.
well horde leaders have been pretty screwed over of late anyway.. at least the kalimdor ones.
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  #28  
Old 04-11-2014, 10:56 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Garrosh was a terrible, resource wasting leader who relied upon his allies to provide his people with basic necessities and weaponry, and treated them like shit anyhow.
It costs alot to wage a war, and his "allies" weren't willing to pay the price.

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Grom was a passionate leader once, but he had to learn self-control. He's not really Warchief material and not fit to handle the politics that being Warchief involves. And it does involve politics. The politics of treating your allies and their differences with respect.
Part of being a leader is knowing how to take criticism. Garrosh criticized the other leaders in the Horde and they rebelled.

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Why did we stand against Garrosh? Because Garrosh was going to destroy the world in his mad pursuit for conquest, and led Orcs astray to desecrate everything they formerly held dear. He turned them against the Elements and such, and practically extinguished their actual culture. He mistreated and betrayed the friends and allies of the Orcs, the very people they fought alongside.
You need to destroy the world in order to usher in the new one.

He embraced the Horde's culture. He did not change it.

He didn't treat any of the Horde races any differently than they did to their own. Goblins exploit and fodderize everyone. Blood Elves do not tolerate any dissent whatsoever. Forsaken are ruled by cults of personality and a casual disregard for life. And trolls are lazy dope smokers that steal credit.

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He abused innocent Orcish citizens who disagreed with him, and hypocritically slaughtered Warlocks who had done nothing worse than he had.
So did Thrall.

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He was terrible, and any existence where he ruled would be an existence as a slave. Even his most favored would be nothing more than just that. A slave to Garrosh. That was the glorious future he promised. An Azeroth where every single man, woman, and child was his slave.
He's the warchief, a military dictator by definition. Everyone is a slave to him because it's the job he had and the oaths sworn to obey him.

As for the rest, I don't care how much Blizzard pretends that the Horde is really a family built on love and rainbows. I've long since gotten tired of Blizzard telling me what to think. I will draw my own conclusions based on the story they present, which is what any writer should strive to do.
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  #29  
Old 04-11-2014, 10:59 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Nothing I hate more then people trying to white wash bad guys or criminals because there wearing rose colored glasses for them. Its as bad as extreme nationalists who love there countries leader so much they glance over there crimes.
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  #30  
Old 04-11-2014, 11:00 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Nothing I hate more then people trying to white wash bad guys or criminals because there wearing rose colored glasses for them. Its as bad as extreme nationalists who love there countries leader so much they glance over there crimes.
You're playing the Horde. Whitewash is what your faction is built upon.
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  #31  
Old 04-11-2014, 11:06 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Headcanon: Westlee is Fojar's alt.
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  #32  
Old 04-11-2014, 11:07 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Headcanon: Westlee is Fojar's alt.
We're all Fojar's alt.
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Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
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SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #33  
Old 04-11-2014, 11:09 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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You're playing the Horde. Whitewash is what your faction is built upon.
you.. urm.. don't quite understand what whitewashing is, do you.
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  #34  
Old 04-11-2014, 11:15 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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You're playing the Horde. Whitewash is what your faction is built upon.
that's true.
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  #35  
Old 04-11-2014, 11:19 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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you.. urm.. don't quite understand what whitewashing is, do you.
Yeah, it's making bad guys less bad by introducing retcons and pretending that they're noble somehow. You want to know who the most white washed character in the franchise is?

Orgrim Doomhammer.

Sad thing is the white washing of the Horde was not actually very thorough, but for whatever reason it was enough for people to declare them redeemed and good!
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  #36  
Old 04-11-2014, 11:34 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
Yeah, it's making bad guys less bad by introducing retcons and pretending that they're noble somehow. You want to know who the most white washed character in the franchise is?

Orgrim Doomhammer.

Sad thing is the white washing of the Horde was not actually very thorough, but for whatever reason it was enough for people to declare them redeemed and good!
ah but you forget something there buckoo. See unlike those who try to pardon characters like Garrosh for his war crimes, with doomhammer it was the writers themselves who retconned orgrim and made him more noble, not the fans.
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  #37  
Old 04-11-2014, 11:37 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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ah but you forget something there buckoo. See unlike those who try to pardon characters like Garrosh for his war crimes, with doomhammer it was the writers themselves who retconned orgrim and made him more noble, not the fans.
Compared to the people that exaggerate Garrosh's evil, "white-washers" are paragons of truth.
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  #38  
Old 04-11-2014, 11:40 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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This has been something that has been bugging me for a while and was prevalent throughout the end of MoP.

Why exactly would an Orc character wish to go against his people? They have never given us a real reason other than 'lolgoodguys'. Take MoP for example. An Orc player has -no- real reason to go against Garrosh. Why would you go against the Warchief who wishes to secure your people prosperity and safety through any means necessary? I don't see how an Orc could put other races above his own people. That right there is disgusting, honestly. Abandon your people to aid a selfish Troll and spineless Tauren, simply to etch out another meager existence in a barren desert with no visions of greatness or bettering your race. Due to this whole Horde fiasco, I am now an Alliance player despite my hate for the faction.

Now this brings me onto my next point. Why the hell would an Orc player wish to fight the Iron Horde? Any Orc would wish to fight alongside the legends of the past, and conquer his enemies. Why would I want to kill Grom, Ner'zhul, Teron, Kargath, Blackhand, ect. They give -no- reason for me to do that. Forced to kill the heroes of the past instead of working alongside them. Kill them because Vol'jin told you too. Great reasoning right there.

Basically, Orcs have no motivation to fight enemies of the last two expansions. It's getting real old. Wish I could join the Iron Horde.
I feel the same everytime I have to kill Scarlets and similar. Why the fuck would I do that when they're actively fighting some of the worst villains around: the Forsaken.
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  #39  
Old 04-11-2014, 11:42 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
Compared to the people that exaggerate Garrosh's evil, "white-washers" are paragons of truth.
you call it exaggerating garrosh's evil, I call it telling the fucking blunt truth. And the best part is, I don't need to exaggerate anything, I just need to say what blizzard themselves wrote.
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  #40  
Old 04-11-2014, 11:46 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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you call it exaggerating garrosh's evil, I call it telling the fucking blunt truth. And the best part is, I don't need to exaggerate anything, I just need to say what blizzard themselves wrote.
Blizzard wrote that Baine did not hold Garrosh accountable for his father's death until later when he did hold Garrosh accountable. Of course, since it's a retcon, it's still the truth right? Imagine what will be "true" tommorrow.
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  #41  
Old 04-11-2014, 11:49 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Blizzard wrote that Baine did not hold Garrosh accountable for his father's death until later when he did hold Garrosh accountable. Of course, since it's a retcon, it's still the truth right? Imagine what will be "true" tommorrow.
It's the way of canon. Either you live by canon or you really have no business being involved in discussions of canonical lore.
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  #42  
Old 04-11-2014, 11:55 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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It's the way of canon. Either you live by canon or you really have no business being involved in discussions of canonical lore.
I'll take canon or disregard it as I see fit. Just like Blizzard does.
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  #43  
Old 04-11-2014, 01:15 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
I'll take canon or disregard it as I see fit. Just like Blizzard does.
Wow, thats not pretentious at all.
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  #44  
Old 04-11-2014, 01:23 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Wow, thats not pretentious at all.
I know, right? It's hard to believe people actually give them money.
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  #45  
Old 04-11-2014, 01:32 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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mmm, yes Westlee. Play them like a piano bar
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  #46  
Old 04-11-2014, 01:56 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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I'll take canon or disregard it as I see fit. Just like Blizzard does.
Blizzard makes it stick only because they write the lore. /sigh
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  #47  
Old 04-11-2014, 01:57 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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I'll take canon or disregard it as I see fit. Just like Blizzard does.
Then you have no basis to disagree with discussions of canon.
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  #48  
Old 04-11-2014, 02:01 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Blizzard makes it stick only because they write the lore. /sigh
Maybe I should begin a kick-starter project. For 2 billion dollars, I'll buy the Warcraft IP and chisel everything into stone. And if a writer/editor fails to adhere, he loses a hand.
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  #49  
Old 04-11-2014, 02:15 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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I am quite sick of fighting Horde heroes at this point.

I think WOTLK is the only expansion where both factions didn't slaughter Heroes of the Horde or Horde related factions.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #50  
Old 04-11-2014, 02:22 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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I am quite sick of fighting Horde heroes at this point.

I think WOTLK is the only expansion where both factions didn't slaughter Heroes of the Horde or Horde related factions.
Drannosh Saurfang. Varimathras and Putress (Horde-related but not heroes).
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