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Old 06-03-2017, 10:00 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Default Invasion of Demons and Medieval Apocalypse

Is this the right place for this thread or should it be located under General Discussion?

Anyway, the current thought that boils in my mind is the fact that Blizzard can't get over the demonic invasion trope.

In Warcraft: Orcs and Humans the Orcish armies came from Hell and apocaliptically destroyed an emblem of the Human civilization.

We even had the corrupt wise mage (Dark Merlin?) figure on Medivh.

The Diablo games can also be seen as another version of Medieval Apocalypse.

In Warcraft II we had an approach to the idea of breaching the Gates of Hell (The Dark Portal) and then venturing into Hell itself (Shattered Draenor).

Then, in Warcraft III, we had another apocalypse, this time under the guise of the Scourge and the Burning Legion, featuring yet another Dark Merlin (Kel'Thuzad).

And now in World of Warcraft: Legion we have one more version of Medieval Apocalypse, with the Burning Legion invading from Argus, the depiction of Argus in the sky after Gul'dan is killed and the subsequent expedition to the Gates of Hell (Tomb of Sargeras) followed by Hell itself (Argus / Twisting Nether).

Orcs ceased to be armies from hell so that actual demons (now each of them slowly getting appointed races to apparently avoid the "demon" generalization) can be the bad guys.

What concerns me is the excessive repetition of the Apocalypse/Gates of Hell/Dante's Inferno script sequence trope. They make it sound like Blizzard can't do anything else. I think that the only expansion that didn't follow this pattern was Mists of Pandaria, albeit it's last patch sort-of fitting into the sequence script.

Am I overthinking it, or maybe perhaps even overlooking something? What are your thoughts?
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Old 06-03-2017, 10:08 AM
Aquamonkey Aquamonkey is offline

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You've got a 13 year gap there.
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  #3  
Old 06-03-2017, 10:22 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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You've got a 13 year gap there.
The biggest gaps I can see that doesn't repeat the trope I mentioned are the 6-year period between WCII and WCIII, and the 4-year period between TFT and TBC.

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Old 06-03-2017, 02:37 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Blizzard sucks at writing. They repeat the same formulas again and again, like some shitty average superhero comic book.

Just look at Deathwing, for example. A master manipulator, turned into a shitty Godzilla. Arthas, turned into a whinny idiot. They don't know how to write characters, and specially, they don't know how to write villains.
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Old 06-03-2017, 03:22 PM
Almed Almed is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
Blizzard sucks at writing. They repeat the same formulas again and again, like some shitty average superhero comic book.

Just look at Deathwing, for example. A master manipulator, turned into a shitty Godzilla. Arthas, turned into a whinny idiot. They don't know how to write characters, and specially, they don't know how to write villains.
I'd say that Blizzard Games have long been more about their settings than their characters or even plots. Hence, getting the messes we see with Sylvanas and other faction leaders since they're making WoW revolve around the antics of a bunch of dysfunctional superheroes.

As for Arthas, making him more than a henchman was a mistake.
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Old 06-04-2017, 04:52 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
Blizzard sucks at writing. They repeat the same formulas again and again, like some shitty average superhero comic book.

Just look at Deathwing, for example. A master manipulator, turned into a shitty Godzilla. Arthas, turned into a whinny idiot. They don't know how to write characters, and specially, they don't know how to write villains.
Arthas was a whiny prince from the get-go.
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Old 06-04-2017, 05:30 AM
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they don't know how to write villains.
This is, sadly, all too true.
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Old 06-04-2017, 08:36 AM
Hagrid Hagrid is offline

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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
I'd say that Blizzard Games have long been more about their settings than their characters or even plots. Hence, getting the messes we see with Sylvanas and other faction leaders since they're making WoW revolve around the antics of a bunch of dysfunctional superheroes.

As for Arthas, making him more than a henchman was a mistake.
I agree. I am less interested in the heroes then I am the world itself. I think many people here would say the same.
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Old 06-04-2017, 09:28 AM
Almed Almed is offline

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Arthas was a whiny prince from the get-go.
Yes, but he was still to the point. He wasn't his WoW version who won't just stab the enemy instead of doing some silly plan.

If this was WC3 Arthas he'd ride around all over the place chopping the player's heads off and cracking jokes about their headlessness.
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:22 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
Yes, but he was still to the point. He wasn't his WoW version who won't just stab the enemy instead of doing some silly plan.

If this was WC3 Arthas he'd ride around all over the place chopping the player's heads off and cracking jokes about their headlessness.
There's no other way we could've had the WotLK expansion.
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:41 AM
Almed Almed is offline

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Sure we could have. They might have stuck with earlier Lore that established the Lich King after TFT being a composite entity instead of Arthas with glow eyes and a new hat. That way, doing plans that involve killing off your followers and recuiting from the enemy would be at least a bit less of a stretch.

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Old 06-04-2017, 12:37 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post
Sure we could have. They might have stuck with earlier Lore that established the Lich King after TFT being a composite entity instead of Arthas with glow eyes and a new hat. That way, doing plans that involve killing off your followers and recuiting from the enemy would be at least a bit less of a stretch.
Given all the power Arthas had, the only way we could've had a "War Against The Lich King" back then would be with a new RTS game.

He had the power to send a full blown invasion to the continents, just like the Burning Legion did recently.

All in all, we didn't have the technology for a Lich King that wasn't holding back. And even worse, if he kept all his power to Northrend, then the Alliance, the Horde and the Ashen Verdict wouldn't be able to even reach Icecrown. He would send goddamn Anub'Arak, frostwyrms and flesh giants to completely stop the settlements from being built, let alone bring reinforcements.
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Old 06-05-2017, 01:49 AM
SomeRandomEvilGuy SomeRandomEvilGuy is offline

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Given all the power Arthas had, the only way we could've had a "War Against The Lich King" back then would be with a new RTS game.
Only because they randomly added in "and without a leader the Scourge would destroy Azeroth".

Given the losses the Scourge would have sustained at Hyjal, from Illidan's Eye of Sargeras spell, some of them gaining independence or being controlled by the Dreadlords, and the fight with Illidan's forces it wouldn't have been a stretch for the Scourge to be much weaker than it was portrayed in (the final 5 minutes of WotLK).
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Old 06-05-2017, 06:49 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Only because they randomly added in "and without a leader the Scourge would destroy Azeroth".

Given the losses the Scourge would have sustained at Hyjal, from Illidan's Eye of Sargeras spell, some of them gaining independence or being controlled by the Dreadlords, and the fight with Illidan's forces it wouldn't have been a stretch for the Scourge to be much weaker than it was portrayed in (the final 5 minutes of WotLK).
Any forces Arthas had at the end of TFT (and especially after so many years rebuilding and strengthening his forces) would be more than enough to prevent anyone from landing at Northrend.
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Old 06-05-2017, 08:42 AM
SomeRandomEvilGuy SomeRandomEvilGuy is offline

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Any forces Arthas had at the end of TFT (and especially after so many years rebuilding and strengthening his forces) would be more than enough to prevent anyone from landing at Northrend.
I'm not so sure. Between naval and magical bombardment and the ability to teleport armies I could see the Alliance and Horde forcing their way ashore. The Lich King may have been weakened in TFT but I'm not sure he would have been so much more powerful that the Alliance and Horde couldn't do what Illidan's Naga and Blood Elves did.
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Old 06-05-2017, 09:22 AM
Almed Almed is offline

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First off, it might be that the Lich King wouldn't have gone on a rampage like he did in WotLK. Ner'zhul carried out the invasion on orders from Kil'jaeden. Absent of that post-TFT, the LK might have not have did what he did in WotLK. Remember that Arthas being dominant didn't happen until WotL and from what WC3 established he was much more enthusiatic about zombie conquest than his liege.

Secondly, there were ways to beat the Scourge without resorting to the mess we actually got. The Dragonflights, Old Gods, Legion, breakaways from the Scourge. All could have worked to get you an opening to the Lich King.

As for Der Mus Alwez Bee Uhh Leech Kiin, just have the Scourge break apart into different factions.
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Old 06-05-2017, 09:37 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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As for Der Mus Alwez Bee Uhh Leech Kiin, just have the Scourge break apart into different factions.
Or have the Legion, through the dreadlords, take the control of the Scourge without the Lich King in his place.
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Old 06-05-2017, 03:09 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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I present to you:

Wrath of the Lich King story done right

There's a Scourge invasion of northern Lordaeron. Somehow the Horde gets us to help. We stop them at a final battle where the Lich King is defeated by Tirion Fordring, wielding Ashbringer. He runs away, and several of his minions are freed from his control, including the player death knights. Many other across the Plaguelands experience similar effects.

It is then decided to invade Northrend and end the Scourge, now that the Lich King is weak. Various things happen all across the continent, and we manage to beat different lieutenants on our road to Icecrown.

We keep fighting, and manage to get to the Wrathgate. Then we get backstabbed by Putress and the Forksaken, and the Lich King is weakened even further. The Alliance is specially angry since they actually helped defend Undercity.

Alliance and Horde troops are forced to retreat, and after some cross-faction conflicts and infighting, they now have to decide what to do: Chase the doubly weakened Lich King, or take revenge on the Forsaken. The Lich King looks weak, so reinforcements going to Northrend are diverted to the Undercity, and both factions prepare to siege the forsaken capital, each from a different side.

Both factions meet inside Undercity, and are about to kill each other, but Tirion Fordring arrives, and forces them to make a temporary truce to fight the common enemies.

Across the city, it is revealed that Varimathras has taken control of many forsaken, through magic means. Tirion uses the light of the Ashbringer to fight the dreadlord's influence, and manages to free some of them.

They fight Varimathras together, but he escapes and laughs, claiming to have control over all undead in the continent. We arrive to the surface, and see Scourge armies surrounding our forces inside the city. The former attackers are now under siege themselves, and with Varimathras march his two brothers and a host of various lesser demons.

We evacuate the civilians through the sewers, but we get trapped. We make a final stand, and right when the dreadlords have us and few other survivors surrounded, something happens.

The undead at the dreadlord's command stop walking. Putress and other forsaken, right beside Varimathras, start to fight against something, as if their minds were being attacked. Our undead allies right beside us suffer something similar.

Then, the undead turn against the dreadlords and their minions, and slaughter them. We manage to fight our way out, carrying the weakened bodies of some of our undead allies.

What the hell happened, you might ask?

Simple: The Lich King softened his control over the undead, pretending to be weak. However, it was all a trap.

Our surviving forces escape Undercity by reactivating the teleportation orb to Silvermoon City, sabotaged by blood elf cultists following Varimathras. We arrive to the elven capital to find it in disarray, its defenses sabotaged as well. We warn them of the new situation, and of the more than probable incoming undead army from the Ghostlands. Using the magic of the Sunwell, they manage to repel their forces, lead by Kel'Thuzad, whom we believed dead. He then proceeds to laugh at us, for we will fail to save our comrades north.

We arrive to Northrend to find most of our forces in disarray, and many of our former holdings lost. The Scourge was hiding additional troops, and this entire campaign was a huge trap.

After gathering what remained of our forces, and discovering a new weapon at Ulduar, we assault Icecrown by surprise, and while our small army holds the guards at bay, a small force infiltrates Icecrown Citadel and manages to defeat the Lich King.

So, summarized:
  • Introduction - The Scourge attacks Lordaeron (Expansion introduction, Dalaran rises)
  • Expansion - Northrend campaign (You defeat all of the Scourge's lieutenants, including Anub'arak in a raid, and then comes a final push against the Scourge, ending with the battle at the Wrathgate and the betrayal as the cliffhanger).
  • Patch 1 - Rise of the Dreadlords (Begins with lot of infighting in Northrend, then we research who was behind the betrayal, find it was Varimathras, Undercity raid)
  • Patch 2 - A Dark Pact (We gather survivors, and search for weapons against the Lich King at the Storm Peaks, breaking into the Ulduar raid)
  • Patch 3 - Icecrown Citadel (Expansion finale, small guerrilla army assaults Icecrown, small squad infiltrates the citadel and kills Arthas)
As for the secondary storylines, most would be kept intact. The only thing that needs an adjustment is the Nexus War. It could be removed altogether (it was retarded anyway), or it could be adapted to either Malygos working with Arthas to revive his dragonflight in undeath, and to kill the stupid wizards (falsely believing Arthas gave free will to the risen dragons, or just being a legit ally against the demons), or Deathwing making his first moves with the blue dragonflight. Either way, Dalaran would join to fight the Scourge in the first place, and only be attacked by the blue dragonflight later on (they would have been deceived and told evil wizards would invade Northrend to eat baby blue dragons or something).

Another alternative is to delay the Scourge war, and send us to Northrend as explorers, to find a lost expedition, and then the war breaks, we go back to our cities to warn them, we fight back, and then we invade.
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Old 06-06-2017, 08:50 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I was going to defend WCII:BtDP Draenor as being a marshy bogworld filled with festering life, and not a hellish fireworld. Then I remembered the proper nouns "Nethergarde" and "Hellfire".

. . .

And then I remembered those were Azeroth/Human names.

Yeah. Back in BtDP days, "Hellfire Peninsula" was probably an Azerothian name. It's not on the Orcish Act I map of Draenor, and it's only named in the Alliance briefings. As we see in Alliance Mission 10, the Hellfire Citadel (named "Hellfire Citadel" on the Alliance Act 4 map, and referred to as "the fortifications at Hellfire" in the first mission of Act 4) is an Alliance fortress, not an orcish one.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Warcraft_II...ge_of_Vanguard
(Note also this mission was called "Siege of Hellfire" in the official strategy guide but was changed to "Siege of Vanguard" in the final game, Vanguard being a name that was never repeated in lore.)

The Alliance likely saw themselves as descending into hell itself. The orcs and ogres; not so much.

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Old 06-07-2017, 02:27 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I was going to defend WCII:BtDP Draenor as being a marshy bogworld filled with festering life, and not a hellish fireworld. Then I remembered the proper nouns "Nethergarde" and "Hellfire".

. . .

And then I remembered those were Azeroth/Human names.

Yeah. Back in BtDP days, "Hellfire Peninsula" was probably an Azerothian name. It's not on the Orcish Act I map of Draenor, and it's only named in the Alliance briefings. As we see in Alliance Mission 10, the Hellfire Citadel (named "Hellfire Citadel" on the Alliance Act 4 map, and referred to as "the fortifications at Hellfire" in the first mission of Act 4) is an Alliance fortress, not an orcish one.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Warcraft_II...ge_of_Vanguard
(Note also this mission was called "Siege of Hellfire" in the official strategy guide but was changed to "Siege of Vanguard" in the final game, Vanguard being a name that was never repeated in lore.)

The Alliance likely saw themselves as descending into hell itself. The orcs and ogres; not so much.
I don't think Hellfire, wherever a human or orc designation*, was supposed to represent the appearance of the region. Otherwise, it wouldn't look such as this;



Furthermore, Warcraft II still held onto Draenor being a place full of fetid swamps;

Quote:
Towering over the fetid swamps of Draenor, the Brokenrock Mountains have long been a vital source of gold.
Draenor might have been a red world in Warcraft II, but it surely wasn't a hellish fireworld. More likely a fetid red-brown bogworld.

*Frankly, I do not buy that reasoning, out of two particular reasons;

1) The map you cite as your source has the Act text all over the location of the Hellfire, leaving no space for the designation, same as with its Alliance counterpart.

2) No orcish missions take place in the area, so it is logical it is not mentioned in the briefiengs at all.
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Old 06-08-2017, 05:20 PM
Hagrid Hagrid is offline

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Orc swampworld got me like:

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Old 06-08-2017, 06:52 PM
Apep Apep is offline

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Zombie apocalypses and demonic invasions are symptoms of a more pressing issue with Blizzard's justification for sending out players to do stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
Blizzard sucks at writing. They repeat the same formulas again and again, like some shitty average superhero comic book.

Just look at Deathwing, for example. A master manipulator, turned into a shitty Godzilla. Arthas, turned into a whinny idiot. They don't know how to write characters, and specially, they don't know how to write villains.
Pretty much this. It isn't necessary to rely on "World-ending Threat #6" as the catalyst for adventure, but the writers seem incapable of comprehending a world that isn't bound to a single thread that inevitably leads to global destruction. I'd much rather waltz into a zone and help locals sort out a civil war, then traipse my way to another location and experience an entirely different, completely unrelated, conflict. Vanilla did this well enough, MoP did it better until 5.4.
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Old 06-08-2017, 07:18 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I don't think Hellfire, wherever a human or orc designation*, was supposed to represent the appearance of the region. Otherwise, it wouldn't look such as this;



Furthermore, Warcraft II still held onto Draenor being a place full of fetid swamps
Exactly my point. What would be a reason for orcs to call that place Hellfire?

It was an Alliance fortress. Easy to imagine the guys who named "Nethergarde Keep" to throw up a "Hellfire Citadel" on the other side.

Otherwise, they found out the orcish name for the peninsula and gave their brand new citadel that very name.
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