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  #51  
Old 05-30-2017, 09:52 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
So Hermione is of African descent? JK Rowling said so, even though the text she wrote disagrees.
That's some obvious pandering bullshit she made up later on, so no. You can't say A today and B tomorrow, there's only one single original interpretation.

Even if she went and rewrote the novels retconning certain elements, the original is still there. People change, and each work is a reflection of the person you were when you wrote it, which must be respected. She's obviously not acting in good faith with what she was thinking when she first wrote it.

If I wrote a book explaining the sky is green, I can't go on and say later that "I meant it was blue". That's dishonest. I can say "I believed that earlier because reasons, but now I have a different opinion".

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
JK Rowling can do whatever with her creation, she might not be able to decide the adaptation though.
Ideally, an adaptation should follow the original, but there's no reason why they can't go their own way, as long as they respect the core (else they won't be the same thing anymore). The original will still be best, though.

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My main criticism towards Death of the Author is regarding unsolved plot threads after the end of a work.

Post-work stuff, like expanded universes and new interpretations are part of a different issue than Death of the Author, in my opinion.
There's a lot of creator dishonesty here, too.

If you originally wrote a cliffhanger with no idea on how to solve it, you must be honest about it, and not try to adapt older work to some halfassed idea you pulled to fill in the holes.

The right approach is to not sell smoke, and to avoid those kind of situations which almost always lead to either disappointments, or fanservice.

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*Cracks knuckles* Arright, let's get this party started.

What do you suppose is the fundamental difference between a folded trash can and, say, the Mona Lisa?
Art is intent, craft, and uniqueness.

Intent = You did what you did on purpose. Random splattering of paint over a canvas is not art, it's a random splattering of paint. In the same way, nature is not art, because it's natural. You can work with randomness to create something, adapting to it and using it as an element (like using a said random splattering as a background), but randomness itself is not a creation.

Craft = Work, hard and requiring skills. There's artisan value on art, you can tell the artist worked hard on it, and grew as an artist, learning valuable lessons. There is a technique, and you can analyze it. Art is not perfect. There's beauty in the craft too. That's why a car or any mechanical device is more art than modern art.

Uniqueness = There's one and only one. If there are any copies, they were made manually, and thus are not the same. Something produced in a factory is not art, because it's not unique. The elements on it must be unique too, and if not, used in an unique manner.

An artist copying another is art, even if it's not original. A novice artist doing bad art is still art as well, as long as he worked hard on it with whatever minimum skills he had at the moment. Bad/Average/Simplistic art is still art.

Art is not about "hidden messages" and bullshit like that. Art does not need to be explained, unless it's intricate and the explanation itself is part of it (and still, said intricacy should be admirable on its own with no explanation whatsoever). If the value of your art lies in some kind of metaphysical explanation, it probably fails the whole 3 points above.

Just my opinion, of course.
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Last edited by Lon-ami; 05-30-2017 at 10:17 AM..
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  #52  
Old 05-30-2017, 10:22 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
That's some obvious pandering bullshit she made up later on, so no. You can't say A today and B tomorrow, there's only one single original interpretation.

Even if she went and rewrote the novels retconning certain elements, the original is still there. People change, and each work is a reflection of the person you were when you wrote it, which must be respected. She's obviously not acting in good faith with what she was thinking when she first wrote it.

If I wrote a book explaining the sky is green, I can't go on and say later that "I meant it was blue". That's dishonest. I can say "I believed that earlier because reasons, but now I have a different opinion".
Thus, the author may change their opinion. The text, however, does not change. Which one then gets preeminence? Who decides what a text says? What if the author is wrong about their own text (as Rowling appeared to be)?
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  #53  
Old 05-30-2017, 10:55 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Fundamental ambiguities aside, your definition of art is myopic even by historical standards. By general consensus, art has as much business imitating the terrestrial or even the profane as it does the divine.



You'd get along great with Tolstoy.

But you, like him, seem to be drawing a line between 'good and moral' art and 'bad and immoral' art, rather than between 'art' and 'not-art.' As well you might, because defining this word is a fool's errand. It doesn't even stem from the right roots.

Also like Tolstoy, you presume to understand what elevates and what diminishes the human condition, and suppose that only art which is in line with what you believe to be the current cultural ethos (namely, your own personal perspective) is 'appropriate' or 'true' art.

Ultimately, art is a meaningless label which was only recently applied by the idle rich to describe what they believed to be beautiful. Like beauty, it is subjective. You have been conned, sir, into believing that 'true art' ever actually existed.
Your failing comes from the idea that beauty is subjective, when it is not.

I was also using the term art in a very loose sense and could replace it in a few places with other words or phrases.

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So, what do you think of Caravaggio and Andy Warhol?
An artist and a CIA plant.
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  #54  
Old 05-30-2017, 11:05 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Your failing comes from the idea that beauty is subjective, when it is not.

I was also using the term art in a very loose sense and could replace it in a few places with other words or phrases.
How is it not subjective?

I mean, even a casual get together at a bar can reveal that you and your friends may have very different standards on what qualifies as beauty.



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a CIA plant.
lol no
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  #55  
Old 05-30-2017, 11:25 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
How is it not subjective?

I mean, even a casual get together at a bar can reveal that you and your friends may have very different standards on what qualifies as beauty.



lol no
You can look at how architecture impacts people and see that it is not.

Yes, he likely was.
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  #56  
Old 05-30-2017, 11:28 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Now I kinda want to see/read a well-written story in which the protagonist is actually a mute person. Like... his tongue was cut out, or something. But no sign language either.
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  #57  
Old 05-30-2017, 11:30 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Now I kinda want to see/read a well-written story in which the protagonist is actually a mute person. Like... his tongue was cut out, or something. But no sign language either.
Mute!
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  #58  
Old 05-30-2017, 11:32 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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You can look at how architecture impacts people and see that it is not.
A lot of modern architecture is pretty awful. But your comment doesn't negate what I said earlier. Perhaps rules are different for different media.

And I'm no fan of modern art. While I can admire the craft, it usually leaves me cold. Nonetheless, it is what it is, and I respect that people enjoy it. My main problem (similar to my issue with franchises) is that there seems to be little room for anything else.

I would argue that most of the truly talented artists now work as illustrators.

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lol no
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  #59  
Old 05-30-2017, 11:40 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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AND a sci-fi bartender? Oh yeah I'm watching this, thanks!
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  #60  
Old 05-30-2017, 11:45 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
A lot of modern architecture is pretty awful. But your comment doesn't negate what I said earlier. Perhaps rules are different for different media.

And I'm no fan of modern art. While I can admire the craft, it usually leaves me cold. Nonetheless, it is what it is, and I respect that people enjoy it. My main problem (similar to my issue with franchises) is that there seems to be little room for anything else.

I would argue that most of the truly talented artists now work as illustrators.



lol no
Most people don't live in art museums, but they do live in cities where architecture negatively impacts moods and opinions. Modern art and modern architecture are built and created by people with the same political/ideological backgrounds. It is fair to compare the two and put them in same camp.

What part of that don't you believe?
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  #61  
Old 05-30-2017, 11:57 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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AND a sci-fi bartender? Oh yeah I'm watching this, thanks!
Plus it is noir sci-fi, with a soundtrack from Clint Mansell.
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  #62  
Old 05-30-2017, 12:22 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Now I kinda want to see/read a well-written story in which the protagonist is actually a mute person. Like... his tongue was cut out, or something. But no sign language either.
Hey! Check out the end of my first post in this thread!
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #63  
Old 05-30-2017, 12:27 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Jeff, I am impressed. Don't see too many quoting Shang Yang these days.
I like the book because of just how much dissonance there is between the intent when writing ('a path to restore order'), and the perception through a modern reading ('1984, pre-release edition'. My enjoyment is derived precisely from the difference between author intent and reader interpretation.
If one forgoes the 'death of the author' principle, I could not enjoy it in this way, only consider it bad (or at least dated) for the author not managing to draw me into his vision.
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  #64  
Old 05-30-2017, 12:30 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Most people don't live in art museums, but they do live in cities where architecture negatively impacts moods and opinions. Modern art and modern architecture are built and created by people with the same political/ideological backgrounds. It is fair to compare the two and put them in same camp.
Your point was that beauty is objective. My point was that it is subjective. Your argument about architecture is a good one, since architecture does impact the qualify of life. The godawful brutalist structures seen in too many cities (usually as public works) diminish humanity.

However, my earlier point still stands. People may disagree about what is beautiful.

Further, architecture is complicated by the fact that, as you say, people live in it. For instance, it may be possible to photograph the Trellick Tower in a way that's striking, compelling, or even beautiful (maybe as a silhouette against a setting sun). But that doesn't change the fact that living in or near it would be dreary because of the structure's presence. Neither does it change the fact that this hypothetical photo might still be artistic.

Art, which one is only exposed to intermittently (or at least in a way that's less overwhelming), cannot have that same effect.

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
I like the book because of just how much dissonance there is between the intent when writing ('a path to restore order'), and the perception through a modern reading ('1984, pre-release edition'. My enjoyment is derived precisely from the difference between author intent and reader interpretation.
If one forgoes the 'death of the author' principle, I could not enjoy it in this way, only consider it bad (or at least dated) for the author not managing to draw me into his vision.
I still rather like the story about how Shang Yang met his end.
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  #65  
Old 05-30-2017, 01:34 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Okay, Anansi, I am guilty of only skimming on longer posts...

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That said, one of the stories I've got on a burner somewhere has a protagonist who chews her own tongue out in the first prologue. I think I can do some interesting things with a mute psychopath whose motivations might be unclear at times even to the audience.
Interesting premise! Are there companions with her who've learned to put up with the silence, or is it a lone wolf situation?

I want a scene with the mute protagonist interrogating someone for information.
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  #66  
Old 05-30-2017, 01:51 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Interesting premise! Are there companions with her who've learned to put up with the silence, or is it a lone wolf situation?
The story begins as she's about to be executed for treason, but she chews the rune for fire into her tongue and escapes her guards by spitting burning blood into their eyes and killing them while they're incapacitated. She used to be a sort of assassin for a cult of anarchist magi, but now she's a mad dog gone off her leash. The driving conflict is a three-way hatred between herself and the other two main characters (an ex-imperial guard and a revolutionary).

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I want a scene with the mute protagonist interrogating someone for information.
Sounds like a challenge! I accept.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #67  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:07 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Ideally, an adaptation should follow the original, but there's no reason why they can't go their own way, as long as they respect the core (else they won't be the same thing anymore). The original will still be best, though.
Novel and movies are entirely different. Good adaption should follow the core of the original and make some necessary changes/improvement.

Some original works aren't that amazing, it would require more works.
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  #68  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:46 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Sounds like a challenge! I accept.
Mind if I take a quick shot at it?
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  #69  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:55 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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The story begins as she's about to be executed for treason, but she chews the rune for fire into her tongue and escapes her guards by spitting burning blood into their eyes and killing them while they're incapacitated. She used to be a sort of assassin for a cult of anarchist magi, but now she's a mad dog gone off her leash. The driving conflict is a three-way hatred between herself and the other two main characters (an ex-imperial guard and a revolutionary).


Sounds like a challenge! I accept.
..........


One of my evolving characters is a Vampiress who in the opening chapter has holy runes carved into her throat during jer transition to prevent her from being able to talk and charm people. Also makes feeding painful...

She's an (unwilling) assassin for a deep buried religous cult inside the standing religous order who want to overthrow the monarchy.

I've mentioned the character in other iterations before.
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  #70  
Old 05-30-2017, 04:12 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
Your point was that beauty is objective. My point was that it is subjective. Your argument about architecture is a good one, since architecture does impact the qualify of life. The godawful brutalist structures seen in too many cities (usually as public works) diminish humanity.

However, my earlier point still stands. People may disagree about what is beautiful.

Further, architecture is complicated by the fact that, as you say, people live in it. For instance, it may be possible to photograph the Trellick Tower in a way that's striking, compelling, or even beautiful (maybe as a silhouette against a setting sun). But that doesn't change the fact that living in or near it would be dreary because of the structure's presence. Neither does it change the fact that this hypothetical photo might still be artistic.

Art, which one is only exposed to intermittently (or at least in a way that's less overwhelming), cannot have that same effect.
It's a matter of poisoning yourself everyday or over the course of a number of years. Both build up and both are bad.
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  #71  
Old 05-30-2017, 04:16 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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..........


One of my evolving characters is a Vampiress who in the opening chapter has holy runes carved into her throat during jer transition to prevent her from being able to talk and charm people. Also makes feeding painful...

She's an (unwilling) assassin for a deep buried religous cult inside the standing religous order who want to overthrow the monarchy.

I've mentioned the character in other iterations before.
Smells like copyright infringement to me. See you in court.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #72  
Old 05-30-2017, 05:20 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Smells like copyright infringement to me. See you in court.
No, I expect to see that character in the next Castlevania game.
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  #73  
Old 05-30-2017, 05:28 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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No, I expect to see that character in the next Castlevania game.
That is incredibly high praise.

Ty.
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  #74  
Old 05-30-2017, 05:30 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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the next Castlevania game.
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  #75  
Old 05-30-2017, 05:52 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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It's a matter of poisoning yourself everyday or over the course of a number of years. Both build up and both are bad.
Is impressionism ugly? What about Stravinsky's "The Rite of Spring"?
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