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  #126  
Old 07-02-2017, 04:20 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I didn't mind Yogg-Saron being in Ulduar, but he'd have definitely been better in Azjol-Nerub. The fact that Azjol-Nerub was so small really disappointed me, because I'd always been interested in the place.

That's why I broke my usual rule about instances and gave it a chapter in the travelogue.
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  #127  
Old 07-02-2017, 04:30 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
I didn't mind Yogg-Saron being in Ulduar, but he'd have definitely been better in Azjol-Nerub. The fact that Azjol-Nerub was so small really disappointed me, because I'd always been interested in the place.

That's why I broke my usual rule about instances and gave it a chapter in the travelogue.
Would have been better than Trial of the Crusader! We need dark spooky caves and cool spider architecture.
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  #128  
Old 07-02-2017, 04:41 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Would have been better than Trial of the Crusader! We need dark spooky caves and cool spider architecture.
It really would have been. The whole trial thing felt really silly, though I'll admit I spent a fair amount of time there.
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  #129  
Old 07-02-2017, 08:52 PM
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I guess I think Ulduar should have been more titan focused with Sargeras as a fallen titan. All the bosses except the last two could have fundamentally been the same. Ulduar as a prison didn't seem to really do anything to seal Yogg-saron. Algalon could have even been the last boss or something but I think the reason Sargeras was in Northrend could have been explored and we wouldn't have this Burning Legion drought throughout that expansion. Varimathras spoke to his unknown master earlier in the expansion and there was hints of a sort of a Burning Legion Civil War.

Yogg-saron would have been the boss of Azjol'Nerub. I liked the idea of an underground race accidentally digging too far and finding him because they were fleeing from the scourge. Some Nerubians could have even joined him to fight against the Scourge.
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  #130  
Old 07-03-2017, 12:35 AM
Yakitori Yakitori is offline

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Honestly, my interest in WoW's lore faded just because I haven't played it since the trail end of Cata, and while my tolerance for stupid shit happening in a story is still there, I'd rather experience it myself, rather than getting it from third party sources. It's also why I don't discuss wrestling online that much; I'd rather watch it myself and make up my own mind, then read page after page of people calling it shit, even if I end up agreeing with them in the end.

Besides, if I want people swearing at each other over which faction is better, with neither side really being willing to cede an inch, there's political discussions for that. Hell, the colors are even the same.

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I loved Vashj'ir. It was easily the best part of Cataclysm for me.
Vashj'ir, to me, was an interesting concept for a zone, that was somewhat hampered by issues with phasing and vehicle quests (especially at the time), and that fighting underwater was the drizzling shits. I mean, I'm sure it wasn't that bad if you were a caster or ranged character, but being a melee class was... just awful. It's also why I don't get the people who want aerial combat, because that would be even worse for some classes.
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  #131  
Old 07-03-2017, 05:27 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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I didn't mind Yogg-Saron being in Ulduar, but he'd have definitely been better in Azjol-Nerub. The fact that Azjol-Nerub was so small really disappointed me, because I'd always been interested in the place.

That's why I broke my usual rule about instances and gave it a chapter in the travelogue.
I think that making it a stupid hallway, instead of an actual realistic installation, was by far the worse thing to happen to Ulduar. In fact, I'd say that's where the trend started, and instances started really losing the "realistic" layout.

Now dungeons and raids are just glorified hallways with some decorations here and there. Couldn't be more of a theme park.
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  #132  
Old 07-03-2017, 06:12 AM
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Now dungeons and raids are just glorified hallways with some decorations here and there. Couldn't be more of a theme park.
I think the MoP instances were generally a pretty good golden mean between realistic maps and convenient maps. Either the shape of the map was justified, or there was the suggestion that this was only a particular path through the instance, with closed doors leading to further side-passages.

Plus, it's not entirely new to the later expansions. Many of the 'nilla instances also had noticably hallwayification. Deadmines most obviously.
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  #133  
Old 07-03-2017, 12:08 PM
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The zones are written to serve the main storyline, it has to stick with the main focus, not to write off some unrelated plot.
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  #134  
Old 07-03-2017, 12:09 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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The zones are written to serve the main storyline, it has to stick with the main focus, not to write off some unrelated plot.
That sounds really linear.
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  #135  
Old 07-03-2017, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
The zones are written to serve the main storyline, it has to stick with the main focus, not to write off some unrelated plot.
I disagree. The more memorable moments in wow are often the more personal stories that were maybe only loosely connected to the overall story arc of the zone. Mankrik's Wife, the Darrowshire quests in the Plaguelands, the Darkshore quest with the night elf's dead wife, A Tale of Valor questline in Icecrown, the grave of Dadanga in Un'Goro.
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  #136  
Old 07-03-2017, 12:40 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Saranus View Post
I disagree. The more memorable moments in wow are often the more personal stories that were maybe only loosely connected to the overall story arc of the zone. Mankrik's Wife, the Darrowshire quests in the Plaguelands, the Darkshore quest with the night elf's dead wife, A Tale of Valor questline in Icecrown, the grave of Dadanga in Un'Goro.
Agree, Hearthstone is cool because it focuses on these small events. Medivh's crazy parties at Kara, for example.
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  #137  
Old 07-03-2017, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
That sounds really linear.
Blizzard couldn't handle different plot well at the same time.


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Originally Posted by Saranus View Post
I disagree. The more memorable moments in wow are often the more personal stories that were maybe only loosely connected to the overall story arc of the zone. Mankrik's Wife, the Darrowshire quests in the Plaguelands, the Darkshore quest with the night elf's dead wife, A Tale of Valor questline in Icecrown, the grave of Dadanga in Un'Goro.
Because there was either no main storyline or the main storyline was executed poorly.

If a sidestory overshadows the main plotline, then it means there is some serious problem with your story writing skill or focus.
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  #138  
Old 07-03-2017, 02:12 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Because there was either no main storyline or the main storyline was executed poorly.

If a sidestory overshadows the main plotline, then it means there is some serious problem with your story writing skill or focus.
You don't need a main storyline in a world that is living and feels lived in.
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  #139  
Old 07-03-2017, 02:24 PM
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You don't need a main storyline in a world that is living and feels lived in.
Yes you need, otherwise when you switch zone the plot switch will feel very disconnected and it can't continue for long. WOW isn't a world for you to live there, just do quests and fight. You guys are fine with those stories because most of them happened when you are exploring the world and leveling up, when you reach max level, those stories can't work well without a big major storyline to tie things together and bring up the real saga.

A well executed long storyline is always much better than a short one. Most of the great sagas are long story.
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  #140  
Old 07-03-2017, 06:07 PM
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You seem to be ignoring that the best of WoW is from stuff like Vanilla and the worst overall comes from stuff like Wrath of the Lich King.
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  #141  
Old 07-03-2017, 06:14 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Yes you need, otherwise when you switch zone the plot switch will feel very disconnected and it can't continue for long. WOW isn't a world for you to live there, just do quests and fight. You guys are fine with those stories because most of them happened when you are exploring the world and leveling up, when you reach max level, those stories can't work well without a big major storyline to tie things together and bring up the real saga.

A well executed long storyline is always much better than a short one. Most of the great sagas are long story.
A short story can be just as good as a novel. Poe's short stories are a lot better than Stephen King's novels.

I never participated in raids, and almost never went to instances, so the main story in WoW always felt pretty distant. I preferred to create my own stories for my character, and an interesting setting was essential for that.

Azeroth died once the setting became subordinated to the story.
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  #142  
Old 07-03-2017, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
You seem to be ignoring that the best of WoW is from stuff like Vanilla and the worst overall comes from stuff like Wrath of the Lich King.
Because Blizzard failed to do it right.

A long major plotline is more difficult to be handled well, but if they are handled well, they became true epic saga.

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A short story can be just as good as a novel. Poe's short stories are a lot better than Stephen King's novels.

I never participated in raids, and almost never went to instances, so the main story in WoW always felt pretty distant. I preferred to create my own stories for my character, and an interesting setting was essential for that.

Azeroth died once the setting became subordinated to the story.

Few of them can, most of the top classic literature and fantasy novels are long story driven by a major storyline.

The main story shouldn't be told in group content. If you want to create your own story and hate existing plot, then why choose WOW rather than tabletop RPG or sandbox game ? A Themed Park MMO is probably the worst place for it. You simply went to the wrong game.

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  #143  
Old 07-03-2017, 06:33 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Because Blizzard failed to do it right.

A long major plotline is more difficult to be handled well, but if they are handled well, they became true epic saga.




Few of them can, most of the top classic literature and fantasy novels are long story driven by a major storyline.

The main story shouldn't be told in group content. If you want to create your own story and hate existing plot, then why choose WOW rather than tabletop RPG or sandbox game ? A Themed Park MMO is probably the worst place for it. You simply went to the wrong game.
One of my objections to fantasy is that too many writers feel the need to draw out the story across multiple books. Give me a standalone Robert E Howard fantasy story any day.

And WoW was the right game for a long time.
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  #144  
Old 07-03-2017, 06:57 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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One of my objections to fantasy is that too many writers feel the need to draw out the story across multiple books. Give me a standalone Robert E Howard fantasy story any day.

And WoW was the right game for a long time.
Even a one book novel is quite long, it could become 2-3 expansions in a game.

WOW has its own plot from the beginning, compare to the freedom of a tablerpg or sandbox game it gave you, WOW:

Little Space to create story.
Little Freedom to do anything to show your plot.
Other players are going to bother as well.

It's themed park MMORPG, simple.
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  #145  
Old 07-04-2017, 04:26 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
A short story can be just as good as a novel. Poe's short stories are a lot better than Stephen King's novels.

I never participated in raids, and almost never went to instances, so the main story in WoW always felt pretty distant. I preferred to create my own stories for my character, and an interesting setting was essential for that.

Azeroth died once the setting became subordinated to the story.
That's an important perspective, too. However, I don't think having a main story stops you from having a free roam world. We can and should have both.

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
One of my objections to fantasy is that too many writers feel the need to draw out the story across multiple books. Give me a standalone Robert E Howard fantasy story any day.

And WoW was the right game for a long time.
Warhammer novels always do this pretty right. There's an overarching story, but pretty much every single novel is standalone, even in sagas of recurring characters.
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  #146  
Old 07-04-2017, 05:12 AM
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It helps that Games Workshop has a canon policy that can address any continuity issues with stuff being Imperial Propaganda or whatever. And overall is more respectful of the players' exploration of or attitude the universe and what's happening towards it.

I haven't seen Games Workshop retaliate for a portion of the fandom noting how a Race (Night Elves) got defanged into Human Sidekicks (complete with a novel telling us that NEs need Varian to show them how to war properly) by having a magical zoo talk about how its leader (Tyrande) is the worst in a bunch of quests shilling a Human king.

Last edited by Almed; 07-04-2017 at 05:24 AM..
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  #147  
Old 07-04-2017, 07:11 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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It helps that Games Workshop has a canon policy that can address any continuity issues with stuff being Imperial Propaganda or whatever. And overall is more respectful of the players' exploration of or attitude the universe and what's happening towards it.

I haven't seen Games Workshop retaliate for a portion of the fandom noting how a Race (Night Elves) got defanged into Human Sidekicks (complete with a novel telling us that NEs need Varian to show them how to war properly) by having a magical zoo talk about how its leader (Tyrande) is the worst in a bunch of quests shilling a Human king.
WoW has always been hung up on hero characters that once popular spiral out of their original personalities into boring story hogs.
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  #148  
Old 07-04-2017, 07:53 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post
It helps that Games Workshop has a canon policy that can address any continuity issues with stuff being Imperial Propaganda or whatever. And overall is more respectful of the players' exploration of or attitude the universe and what's happening towards it.

I haven't seen Games Workshop retaliate for a portion of the fandom noting how a Race (Night Elves) got defanged into Human Sidekicks (complete with a novel telling us that NEs need Varian to show them how to war properly) by having a magical zoo talk about how its leader (Tyrande) is the worst in a bunch of quests shilling a Human king.
Yeah, Games Workshop has a pretty clean record, and even the disaster that was the End Times made sense at the end, even if the execution could have been better.
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  #149  
Old 07-06-2017, 04:03 PM
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Also, it has been shown Warcraft's handlers can't do longterm plot building. In light of how apparently there were plans to include the Voidlords back in TBC and maybe even go into the whole Naaru VS Voidlord fight. But it ended up getting scrapped while we ended up getting a faction war that was overall not relevant to the Legion/Naaru/Old God conflict.
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  #150  
Old 07-06-2017, 04:11 PM
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I think there's been a major change in how CDev works recently. They've become a lot more story focused, Chronicles has done the bulk of the retcon work, and Blizz is generally trying to right the ship overall.

That said, I'm still very wary of their ability to handle the nitty gritty at the small scale and how it effects the overall build-up. It definitely doesn't help that they've got a contingent of people who seem to believe over-dramatic stories and dialogue are valid. As emotional as Kil'jaeden's death seemed, it was still very out of the blue and condensed as compared to what it should have been.
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