Greetings, good people of Scrolls of Lore and various visitors. As some of you may know, I and my friend Kuusinen have been working on one little project for quite some time. A project that has as its part something we call the Atlas of Azeroth and Draenor, a set of numerous maps featuring the geography of Warcraft reconstructed to be both more in line with the old RTS games and to work more plausibly. Now, at long last, comes our very first official release. The physical map of the Eastern Kingdoms, now open for reviews. Enjoy or hate, but please, share your opinion.

Disclaimer: I am creating a new thread, as the previous one was created for the purpose of sharing previews and discussing unfinished work and concepts related both to the maps and the writings. And I would like it to stay that way, and keep this thread for the discussion of the finished segments of the Atlas of Azeroth and Draenor only. I hope you do not mind.


The Atlas of Azeroth and Draenor - Deviant Art

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Map I - Physical Map of the Eastern Kingdoms at the Outbreak of the First War

Map I - Physical Map of the Eastern Kingdoms with an Index

Map II - Physical Map of the Eastern Kingdoms at the Outbreak of the Second War

Map III - Political Map of the Eastern Kingdoms at the Outbreak of the First War (without elevation)

Map III - Political Map of the Eastern Kingdoms at the Outbreak of the First War (with elevation)

*Reserved for any future need*

*Reserved for any future need 2*

Glorious map! Will you be revealing the other maps on the coming days?

Just to nitpick: I think you confused "marshes" with "marches".

A marsh is a swamp, a march is a borderland, or something like that.

Mispelled "The Loch" as "The Lock".

There are several places where you seem to use "march" instead of "marsh" (e.g. Pyrewood Marches, Bluegill March). Is that intentional or do you mean "marsh" instead?

That said, the map looks stunningly gorgeous, and I will be devouring the details over the next week or so.

It is a mistake I did not notice during proof reading. I will tell K. to fix it.

Same here as well.

I like a number of a small touches of details such as Alteraci Brill, Chillwind Harbor, Vandermar Village, Hasic, and Juroon. (I also like how this basically places Alteraci Brill approximately where Chillwind Camp is located.)

1) Duskwood: Is there a reason that Seradane is marked as a "Place of Power," but the Twilight Grove in 'Duskwood' is marked just as a "Place of Interest" despite their equivalence? May also want to include Beggar's Haunt as a fortification (though likely under a previous name).

2) Quel'thalas: You may also want to check out WoW maps to help fill in some space, if that's your wish. For example, you may want to include the troll tombs, Andilien Estate, and the Moon Crystals (An'telas, An'owyn, and An'daroth) in the Ghostlands or the Thalassian Pass.

3) Some of the town names seem incredibly generic, and I'm skeptical of a city existing named "Market Square." So I'm curious about place names like that and others, such as Raging Stream, Sanctuary, and Wellspring.

4) Gilneas: You may want to include ruins in the Gilnean HeadlandsI would debate Keel Harbor's existence as a fortification or whether it should be considered as a town or large town even. Similar with Tempest's Reach, which may be a village or town. Also, where is Baron Ashbury's lands? Or does his baronage imply a much smaller, if not trifle, portion of land?

6) Alterac: This may be a separate question, not entirely related to the map, but shouldn't the Alterac Mountains have some dwarf presence? We do know that some dwelt there at least around the time of the Third War due to that stupid Trag Highmountain story, and the Stormpike seem to believe that there were dwarven/titan relics worth excavating there. I'm inclined to believe that the Stormpike Clan - in my head canon a splinter clan descended from Bronzebeards and other assorted clans who went north and established trade relations with humans, explaining their vast wealth - had some presence (apart from Dun Garok) in Greater Lordaeron.

5) Kul Tiras: Even though non-canonical, I'm surprised you didn't include Boralus as a town or city in Kul Tiras. (Possibly with a Moscow vs. St. Petersburg of de jure vs. de facto/historic capital setup.)

6) Hinterlands: Appears to be missing the troll villages of Shaol'watha and Hiri'watha (and the ruins of Zun'watha and Skulk Rock) as well as the Wildhammer's Stormfeather Outpost. (Strange considering the presence of the Stormfeather River.)

7) Wetlands: Menethil Harbor appears to be missing, which is curious given the presence of Menethil Bay. Also I would certainly be curious as to when Menethil Harbor was created, as it may be a Second War development, a location where the Alliance made landfall or following the war.

8) Loch Modan: The map should probably include the Stonewrought Dam as a place of interest, which is considered to be something of a wonder of the world. Also, the Farstrider Lodge appears to be missing.

9) Northeron: Where is it?

10) Twilight Highlands: The Firebeard's Patrol subzone of Twilight Highlands appears to be a town, likely of a name evocative of the Firebeard Clan. Also, the Red Dragon's "headquarters," the Vermillion Redoubt is in that area.

11) Tirisfal: Shouldn't Venomweb Vale be noted as a "place of power," since that's where the Council of Tirisfal met and first empowered the Guardian? Also, couldn't a number of the Scarlet towers also be prior fortifications of Lordaeron, especially given their ruined status implying their previous use?

12) Searing Gorge: Perhaps include Thorium Point as a village, town, or place of interest? Also, maybe the Cauldron as well?

13) Stranglethorn: May also want to include more troll ruins (i.e. Ziata'jai, Zuuldaia, Mizjah, Bal'lal, Kal'ai, Tkashi, Balia'mah, and Jubuwal) to give a greater sense for the prior size of this empire.

14) Westfall: May want to include the Deadmines as a place of interest, as they also show up during the First War.

I may add more later, but I have work.

Genesis, most of those things you mention were left out deliberately. When considering the level of detail, we decided to leave out smaller things, as we wanted the map to stay relatively clean.

Now, as for the rest of the things you mention.

1. the Twilight Grove should be a place of power. It is an oversight.

2. I believe Quel'thalas is cluttered as it is. We left those places you mention deliberately.

3. Those generic names come from certain Warcraft II and Warcraft III melee maps. I used them so I would not have to make up wholly random names. Many also have some lore in their description, which often allowed me to specify their location easier.

Marker Square
Rock Quarry
4. I consider Tempest's Reach Baron Ashbury's holding, hence why it is a fortification. About Keel Harbor; fortifications are actually used for harbors as well, hence why is Hasic also using the symbol. We discussed using a separate anchor symbol for them, but it did not look good. I will tell K. to change the description to Fortifications and harbors.

5. I wanted to completely avoid anything from the RPG books.

6. A. It is not shown on the map (same as there is no Shadowpine settlement for example, even though they live in Silverpine), but dwarves certainly do live in Alterac. Even Gilneas, for that matter.

6. B. Deliberately left out. And Stormfeather Outpost does not exist yet.

7. Deliberate, both. The harbor is named after the bay, not the other way around. The bay is named so already by the time of the First War (you will learn why), the harbor does not exist yet.

8. I will discuss that one with K. Good call.

9. Directly from the work.
10. Neither does not exist yet.

11. Too secret to be included on such map.

12. Neither does exist yet.

13. Deliberately left out.

14. Good call.

This is really neat.

Perhaps Booty Bay should be called Blackwater Cove:

Fair. But what if you included a lot of ruin symbols with attached numbers, but then included a map key for some of these locations? Or even if they were just left blank? Just "here be ruins" type of thing?

I think I would have preferred if Market Square just got wrapped together with the preexisting city of Stratholme, which also has a subzone called Market Square. I would like to believe, for example, that while "Market Square" is the name of the map, it's not the name of the city, with "a city somewhere on Azeroth" describing that Market Square could be part of any city. In a similar vein, Raging Stream sounds like a descriptive map name, but not a city name, which is my major problem regardless of whether it's a nod to PvP maps or not. Nor do I think just a map using the "Cityscape" tile set makes it a city.

Also, I can't find some of those names listed on WoWpedia. I would also downgrade a number of these "large towns" to just towns or villages.

You could also put Valimar Mordis's castle as a fortification up in Alterac if you needed a replacement for Wellspring or some such town.

What about a ship's wheel? Or even a small ship?

Ah. Then Crestfall should also be a town or something, since it appears as a dot on the WC2 map.

And on that note, the "Altar of Storms" in the Blasted Lands was labeled as "Temple of the Damned" on the WC1 map. So I don't know if you would prefer to change labels for that or give preference to the WoW naming.

Aren't the Shadowpine up in Quel'thalas? I don't recall trolls appearing in any of the WC3 Silverpine area missions.

So what connection, if any, to the Menethil family of Lordaeron? Or is it just a coincidence? If I will learn why, you can keep quiet for now.

Also, what of the Thandol Span or even a Thandol Strait (since you mentioned it regarding Tyr's Hand)? The only Thandol is the Mouth. It's not that I want to further clutter Dun Modr, but the Thandol Span is another important architectural feature.

Also, I'm curious about the listing of Blackrock Spire. Shouldn't the actual capital city listed be Shadowforge rather than the Spire?

And speaking of architectural features, Thoradin's Wall?

Acceptable.

The Firebeard Clan and its town does not exist yet? Color me skeptical of that.

Meh. Yet Tirisfal itself is not?

Will regional maps at least show more places in detail?

I agree with Genesis that places such as "Market Square" probably don't reflect the real name of the town, rather a description of the place. Wellspring is fine, though.

Why do you suppose Vermillion Redoubt doesn't exist yet?

Perhaps. I will discuss it with K. Still, I am not sure if it is really necessary. The markers are not there to actually show everything, let alone some ruins lost in deep jungle.

Call it a creator's choice. I wanted to give those areas with very few known settlements some larger to call their own, and I chose to use Warcraft III melee maps for them. I even constructed the lore around these names (Market Square being a former trading post, Raging Stream a town at especially turbulent place etc).

This is your best bet, apart from Warcraft III itself.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/maps/

That would sort of defeat the whole point.

Same as above.

Will try.

I think the dot there refered to the Horde naval base. At least, that is how I interpret it in the work.

The Temple of the Damned is actually there, a bit to the north.

Sorry, mixed that up. I meant the Shadowglen. They appeared in the last night elf mission of The Frozen Throne.

A royal fleet carrying a Menethil princess got lost there during a storm. She was to marry a Wrynn crown prince, the only arranged marriage between Lordaeron and Azeroth. The kingdoms took that as an omen, never entering any other marriage negotiations. Many sailors believed the ghosts of the drowned to dwell in the bay and began to call the bay Menethil Bay after the lost princess.

The Span is a part of Dun Modr, so it is not shown on purpose. But I will have the Thandol Strait added.

The map is set in 590, when the Horde already established Blackrock Spire as its capital in Azeroth.

As a ruin? Well, perhaps.

The clan does exist. This military outpost does not, however.

Not comparable at all. Tirisfal is a holy place, know from the legends. Every single human has a vague idea of its existence and even somewhat of its location (somewhere in the Tirisgarde Range).


I am not sure if we will do any. This already took a lot of time to do, and we need to move onto other stuff.

Already adressed.

I have the Reds residing on Crestfall, as per Lord of the Clans. They only move to the area around Grim Batol with the Second War and its aftermath.

I'm really not a fan of these place names regardless of whether they nod back to WC2 and WC3 maps or not. And having them be as large of towns or cities without anything else in lore suggesting their presence or status as such seems like a highly questionable choice.

Valimar Mordis's castle has far more of a lore canonicity than Wellspring or any other of these PvP maps.

Perhaps.

Ah, now I see.

Cool.

Okay? But Shadowforge is also still there and arguably the larger part of the entire city complex.

Maybe a series of tiny dots and having Thoradin's Wall written alongside of it?

Military outpost? I'm referring to the burning village that's part of the Firebeard's Patrol subzone:


Still, it seems like something worth noting for historical purposes.

Well, we both know this work is anything but canon, by far. But I will have Mordis Castle and Ravenholdt added. To be absolutely honest, I simply forgot about them while making a list for K., even though I have them in my notes.

Of course, there certainly are some fishing settlements, but nothing I found worth mentioning.

Alright, it seems I have to explain this one a bit. I am not exactly following the way World of Warcraft and the Tides of Darkness novel presented. Rather, I am following my own mental image constructed while playing Warcraft I and II way, way back. As such, Blackrock Spire (and the city of Hordemar) is an actual capital, a vast testament to the horrific orcish architecture, a bit reminiscent of Hellfire Citadel. Shadowforge and the Dark Irons are still there, but they are outnumbered 10:1 and completely cut from the world.

Now, I formerly wanted Shadowforge to be shown as well, but we concluded with K. it would not look good (we tried, actually). The place is already cluttered as it is. And Blackrock Spire is simply far larger and relevant at the time.

Could work.

I interpret the "village" as a military outpost, given the name. Founded in the aftermath of the Second War.

I might include it as a sub-region, but having it a place of power just seems wrong to me. Sorry.

I still have a problem with the WC2 and WC3 generic map names.

If you need towns, I would perhaps recommend looking at the internment camps. Before Hammerfall, for example, was a Horde military outpost it was an interment camp. But it's possible that Hammerfall existed as a town that was ravaged during Warcraft 2, though likely under a different name. It probably would have been easier for the Alliance to repurpose these towns and villages rather than build up internment camps out of nothing.

Disappointing, but okay.

I interpret Firebeard's Patrol to be the remnants of the Firebeard Clan located on the outskirts as opposed to the name of the actual village that's aflame.

That works.

I am sorry about that, but I will not back down from something I enjoy myself unless there is a serious reason to do so. You know, the creator's vision and all.

As for the internment camps, I have something very different in mind. Former orcish colonies deprived of their military structures. Explains why there were so many in Azeroth and Stromgarde, formerly at least.

Not sure what exactly is disappointing, so I can't comment any further.

Hmm, noted. I might reconsider this. Thank you.

That's fair. But this is also a sticking point of immersion-breaking where my own interest parts from your project. Good luck going forward. It's otherwise been great.

Just for the sake of a middle-term option, you could always go for "Name, the Market Square", and make the other one "Ragestream" or "Ragestream Village/City".

I like how we're all so passionate about this ;p

Quick question: In which direction does Arevass flow? I'm confused.

By the way, where did Harrow come from? Never heard of it.

If W1 had a town called Sunnyglade, I think one called Raging Stream is not so terrible IMHO

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Sorry to hear that. But that is how it is with fan projects that construct their own lore.


Ultimately, the thing here is no one provided me with any argument bar "it sounds too generic, so I dislike it." I already backed down from many things given the feedback, but it was always due to the power of some sound argument. Here, there is none.

And no, being too generic is not a sound argument when;

1) Azeroth is full of extremely generic names.

2) Our world is full of extremely generic and weird names. I could open a map and find villages/towns called Blato (mudd), Krovi (bush), Pastviny (Pastures), Bor (a pine forest) or Most (a bridge).

But let's play a game. Here is a list concerning all names adapted from Warcraft III melee maps. Give me a good name that will allow me to keep the lore constructed, and I will seriously consider it. I might add some of my own.

Harrow - a village known after a spiked tooth rock formation that surrounds it. (Do not think this really needs to be changed, but perhaps Harrowville?).

Market Square - formerly a trading post and place of exchange between Stromgarde and Aerie Peak, now a bustling mechant town.

Wellspring - a spa town in Alterac. (Perhaps Aidensbrad, Perenolde Springs, Perenolde Wells?)

Raging Stream - a river town at a place where the stream is very strong. (Perhaps Byrebrycge, Windbrucke, Riverside?)

Wizard's Retreat - I honestly do not think this one needs a change.

Cherryville - a village in the Uplands. (Do not think this really needs to be changed).

The Round Village - a village named after the round island it covers (Perhaps Kreisville? Not sure if it needs to be changed, though).

Sunrock Cove - a village in Kul Tiras. (Perhaps only Sunrock or Sunrock Village?)

Venetia - a town that servers the home of the hydromancers (Do not think this really needs to be changed).

Rice Fields - a village in Westfall. (Do not think this really needs to be changed).

Rock Quarry - a village near Karazhan, built to mine the local meteoric rocks and minerals. (Not sure it needs to be changed).

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As for Arevass: Rolling Hills>Amber Woods>Deem Elem Vale>Silverpine>sea.

I lol'ed. I change my stance, those names are fine.

Harrow looks like a real name, it's fine, and I now agree with the rest. If you were set to change Raging Stream, I'd at least keep the words in some form. Sunrock Cove could look better as Village, but we have stuff like Booty Bay so it's fine.

Now only "Ziggurat City" seems strange, considering other troll places are named in zandali.

Personal distaste can be a strong reason enough, especially given when it's your taste that is deciding inclusion or not.

To an extent.

Okay.

I don't mind these names. They sound Warcrafty or real worldly enough. The Round Village though could be changed to Roundville, Roundham, or Round Village. Either way I would drop "The" from the name.

Refuge Pointe (which would likely be where Sanctuary is)? Trollmark? Geldmark? Nordmarch/Normark? Marquette? Fort Martel? Or you could name it based on an important figure or even what was actually traded there. (Not that it matters, but keep in mind that the War of the Three Hammers was around ~230 years BDP, so such a town would be relatively "young" by Seven Kingdoms standards.)

Also, it's worth pondering whether there should be a fortification at Northfold Manor. Yeah, it's a farm now, but the 'manor' part may suggest that it once held a noble estate there. Who knows how it was prior to the Second War ravaged Stromgarde. Northfold may even serve as the "market square" you require, especially given its proximity to the tunnel connecting the Arathi Highlands to the Aerie Peak.

Riverside has a nice ring to it. Given its location in proximity to troll ruins along the Chillwind River, how about Tuskbend, Brokentusk, or something along those lines? Or you could tie in the whole "Raging" aspect with the troll berserkers. It's also worth considering moving it to a stream as opposed to alongside Chillwind River. Or you could move it near Arevass River given how we did see that river rage and it's surrounded by a number of farms, a large cemetery, and Fenris Keep despite lacking a neighboring township.

This strikes more as an issue of location, though the name is still a bit 'meh,' being more evocative of environmental feature than a town. Westfall doesn't strike me as a rice-producing land. How about relocating it to the Swamp of Sorrows area? We know, for example, that Joanna Blueheart possibly came from that area, though she may also be implying Grand Hamlet. And the wetlands would possibly be more suited for raising rice than Westfall. Alternatives? Ricefeld, Rice Plain, Riceville, Riceshire (kinda partial to this).

Which is marked as a "town" and not a village on the map. Sunrock Cove, though, sounds more like a location off the Echo Isles, Kalimdor, or Kezan rather than the Eastern Kingdoms. If it was in the Eastern Kingdoms, I would probably guess that it's far closer to Stranglethorn.

Acceptable as a name, though the map description for some reason made me think less of Kul Tiras and more one of the other islands, possibly around Tol Barad or in Baradin Bay. But I suppose Kul Tiras needs love in terms of locales.

Rock Quarry sounds less like a village and more like well...a rock quarry or mine. And given new information in Chronicle about Karazhan's origins, I'm somewhat skeptical about the canonicity of this map. Strangely though, it's not that far-fetched of a name, as there is a relatively close town of Granite Falls around where I am from.

Agreed. I would probably just call it Zul'Aman. After all, most cities in Warcraft lend their names to their nation: e.g. Lordaeron, Stormwind, Gilneas, etc. Zul'Aman seems to lend itself, much like Zul'Gurub, to the style of ancient cities also lending their names to the empire: Roman (Rome), Babylonian (Babel), Assyrian (Asshur), etc.

I also agree with Genesis. Yes, I agree with many things.

Marthen, gonna ask a question about Karazhan but I think it fits better on the other thread, check it out

Well, I am a firm believer the writer should write something he enjoys himself and then let the reader decide whether does he like it as well or not, rather then write something to appease everyone but himself. But I understand. Nevertheless, now that we have moved towards constructive discussion, it will be easier for me to accomodate.

Alright. I like Roundham. What about Kreisville? I know those are two languages mixed, but I do not see that as a problem. Your choice people. Roundham or Kreisville.

Also, what do you think of that Aidensbrad name for Wellspring? I am growing fond of it. Especially since Strahnbrad also exists.

Actually, Nordmark is the name of the whole region north of the Arathi Highlands (aka Stromgarde proper).

Anyway, what about Geldholme? Also, the town is about 120 years old in my notes, yes.

PS: I forgot to note Sanctuary. Keep the name? Or perhaps something like Caer Sicred?

Uhm, there is one? Take a close look.

I think I will keep Riverside.

Love it. Both the idea of the location and the name of Riceshire. Thank you.

I still have to correct that one. Technically, it is already a town population wise. Anyway, I can change the name, but I would keep the settlement. Any suggestions?

I am fond of it because of the connection to the hydromantic order I made up.

Since we are at it, how about Rockshire, Stardale, Starshire (after the fallen star)?

Of course, the city itself is called Zul'Aman, especially by the Amani. I just wanted to differentiate it on the map. Now, the Ziggurat name itself comes from this map. But I can change it, of course.

Roundham makes me think of a round ham tho. In what language is Kreis? By the way, how do languages old and new relate to language in this universe? I imagine English is the human common tongue, then is old English the old common? And then germanic from certain regions and Norse vrykul, which then evolved into the others? We know there is also something akin to Latin.

Geldholme nah. Caer Sicred yeah.

What star?

By the way, there could be a city called Zul'Aman and a place of power next to it called "The Great Ziggurat".